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2021/10/21 13:33:54
Subject: Re:Black Templars Compiled thread(Updated 10/4) PREORDERS OCT 9.
Let me tell you, despite everything that had been said in this topic or elsewhere, I don't regret any euro invested.
The box itself is amazing, the sprues are generous and offers many options, the codex is a piece of art. Everything is above what I was hoping for regarding a Black Templar update. This is the box I have been dreaming of for years. It will be proudly stored on the top of my pile of shame.
2021/10/21 13:52:55
Subject: Black Templars Compiled thread(Updated 10/4) PREORDERS OCT 9.
Really my biggest complaint about the box is the small amount of lore in the codex. They really could have beefed it up a few pages with more stories and background.
The models themselves are really good. Having the EC in hand, I dig the model as one of my new favourites.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/21 13:53:14
From the looks the new Black Templar are really great. GW did an excellent Job with the aesthetics.
But what, at least for me, really sucks is that I hate Neophytes and to get Chain Weapons and Space Marines with Clothes i got to buy 3 Crusader Squads so i can get 15 Marines as Assault or normal Intercessors with Chain weapons.
And the new Upgrade Sprue doesnt even help with that, because it has no Weapons or Armor with Clothes to change the looks of your normal Intercessors.
I had hopes for something like the old Black Templar Squad where you got 10 Marines and could build them either with Bolters or Chainswords.
2021/10/22 13:00:36
Subject: Re:Black Templars Compiled thread(Updated 10/4) PREORDERS OCT 9.
Let me tell you, despite everything that had been said in this topic or elsewhere, I don't regret any euro invested.
The box itself is amazing, the sprues are generous and offers many options, the codex is a piece of art. Everything is above what I was hoping for regarding a Black Templar update. This is the box I have been dreaming of for years. It will be proudly stored on the top of my pile of shame.
Ye idk why such hatred of the box... I love how they are making them more poseable, almost going back to the good old days..
and from what I see if starting to collect BT was a great buy ( I bought it because was great for me):
Even if don't like the old kit of the redemptor still saves $10 if buy retail (and every online store sells this from what I have seen so bigger savings?)
I really want to like the Primaris Sword Brethren when they come out...but apart from the vow thing and if make a squad of 10 and combat to what want but still, Bladeguard all the way???
Bladeguard really need to go to 2 wounds, its crazy for points...
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/22 13:40:43
14k Generic Space Marine Chapters 20k Deathwatch 10k Sisters of Battle 3k Inquisition 4k Grey Knights 5k Imperial Guard 4k Harlequins 8k Tau
2021/10/22 13:05:48
Subject: Black Templars Compiled thread(Updated 10/4) PREORDERS OCT 9.
Let me tell you, despite everything that had been said in this topic or elsewhere, I don't regret any euro invested.
The box itself is amazing, the sprues are generous and offers many options, the codex is a piece of art. Everything is above what I was hoping for regarding a Black Templar update. This is the box I have been dreaming of for years. It will be proudly stored on the top of my pile of shame.
Interesting take. Mine would be literally the opposite, I've written that down at Spikey Bits, but here's a copy pasta
Spoiler:
I want also to say that I've been pretty disappointed in that BT box.
Got mine, and it's frankly shocking how "cheap" the thing felt.
It's very light despite being so big and for good reason, the cardoard is one of thos very thinn stock you'd get for a starter box rather than sturdier stuff boxes like Indomitus are made of and the interior plastic holder that keeps the book and sprues in place is slo thin that it got torn off by the book moving inside (which also slightly damaged the book itself).
And speaking of book, oh boy that was the biggest disappointment of all. Despite having more pages than the 3rd edition codex, it felt way emptier, with mostly meaningless padding inside and a clear lack of actual information.
Let’s just make a quick side by side comparison just to drive home how BAD things are nowadays compared to previously. (Wall of text incoming, you've been warned).
The 3rd ed codex is 66 page long, the 9th is 80.
The 3rd is a FULL codex that contains all the infos required to play the army (datasheet of ALL units in the marine army, the rules for the Space marine army, the full armory, etc etc) .
The 9th is a supplement that only contains the new units and gears and rule of the BT.
The 3rd is also way easier to use since it was from a time where ALL the info were listed on the datasheet, INCLUDING THE POINT COST.
The 9th follow the current egregious trend where the points aren’t listed on the datasheet and you have to flip at the end of the book to know how much a unit or even just the gear options cost, this is the worst.
The 3rd had a lore introduction of the army starting from the great crusade and covering the heresy, the aftermath, the second founding and then cover the chapter and the spacemarine basic (creation, training and weapon) lore.
The 9th cover only Era indomitus and the chapter.
The 3rd explains the lore of each units, Black Templar specific or not (Neohpyte, Initiate, Sword Brethren, High Marshal, Marshal & Castellan, Emperor Champion, Techmarine, Dreadnoughts, Apothecary, Chaplains)
The 9th only have a summary description that could fit on a tweet for the units that got a datasheet.
The 3rd gives you a recap of 5 Crusades
The 9th gives you a recap of 3 Crusades
The 3rd had a schematic of each units in their data sheet.
The 9th have just a photo of a mini
The 3rd had a half a page of lore with the other half used by a gorgeous illustration (that were used to make the new minies) for the characters
The 9th have a very, VERY short basic description of the character (helbretch gets a page somewhere else)
The 3rd was a time where the rules you needed to play an army weren’t so convoluted.
The “Space Marine army” rules take a page, the Black Templar Special rules take another, the Vows take 2 more pages (mostly because half the page is taken by fluff exemple of a vow).
The 9th is a good representation of the bloated mess that the edition is (and remember, this is just the SUPPLEMENT stuff you need on top of the base Space Marine stuff not included in the book).
2 page is taken for the stratagem, 1 page for the Litanies, 1 page for the Warlord traits, 2 pages for the Relics, 2 pages for the Relic Bearer, 1 page for the chapter approved rules.
7 Pages are taken for the Crusade rules (the game mode).
The most painfully obvious part for me was the colorsheme part of the book.
The 3rd had 1 page with the standard “space marine colorsheme template” (you know the one), showing clearly what colors a marine have, indicating what should be on their kneepad and what the shoulderpad of a Initiate, Assault Squard, Chaplain, Neophyte, Sword Breathren and Apothercay should look like with the full banner and heraldry of 6 crusades (and their quite lore summary).
It’s then followed by a “painting black Templars” page that details in a very efficient manner (like GW used to be able to do back in the day) ALL the colors used, how to apply transfers and a quick tips on a couple of stuff that could be useful (skin, parchment, how to paint the gold on the sword brethren weapons).
It’s then followed by 8 pages going through each and EVERY single unit with photographical example of how to paint them (all of them using upgrade sprue), 1 top /front/side/back page just for the Land Raider Crusader, 2 page for a whole army and 1 page for some showcase of cool conversation/paint/diorama.
The 9th… first of all the 9th just flat out retconned the colorscheme of the Black Templars, which is pretty astonishing tbh. Their weapons are now suddenly red and their chest emblem are now gold… which makes them look EXACTLY like the Deathwatch now. The sword brethren also lost their gold weapons.
Other than that they only show 3 shoulder pad variants “Command, Battleline & Fire Support”, “Veteran”, “Close Support” (good luck deciding which is which).
There is detailed pictures of the new primaris crusaders and sword brethren. A LOT of pictures of these new models.
6 pages of them, accompanied with other random stuff in the background (namely primaris tanks, primaris dread and some time intercessor or outriders) NONE of them using any Black Templar bits from the upgrade sprue (old or new) with the exception of the terminator and land raider crusader (which are the very same models present in the 3rd book) taking up 1 page, then there’s 1 more page for the the characters (Helbretch, Grimaldus, Emperor’s Champion, Castelan.
Strangely enough the pimped out castellan based on Jone Blanche is only visible in the background of the next 2 page spread army shot (which really reinforce my idea that this model was probably originaly meant to be this years 40k Games Day mini).
Want to know how to paint phobos black Templar? How to play Blade Guard (Should they get white helmpets like the terminators? What about the shield)? Agressors? Any of the many other Primaris units I forgot?
Do you just want to know what paint to get and how to use it? Welp, tough luck it’s not in that book.
And here comes the most important part I want to drive home: the EXTREME laziness and padding of that book. How could it have 14 more pages than the 3rd despite having way less content than it?
Welp here’s some simple examples:
3rd has (without counting the aforementioned 8 pages of miniature photos+ double page spread army)
- 4 full art pages,
- 8 pages that have around 50% art,
- 8 pages with 30% art.
Most datasheet pages contains 2 units with a detailed (and loreful) explanation of their skills.
9th has (without counting the aforementioned 8 pages of new miniature pictures + double page spread army),
- 9 full art page,
- 17 pages that have around 50% of their space used by art,
- 8 where some random art has been slapped at the bottom of the page and eats a good 30% of the page.
Each of the 6 datasheet occupy a full page, with the bare minimum text possible and usually with either a picture of the mini taking half the page or just left blank.
For some reasons the fantastic art piece from MG that were used to make the new Grimaldus and Helbrech are not used (or used as a de-saturated background image under text), this is just... weird.
3rd managed to have both the loreful version and rule version of the 4 vows on the same 2 pages WHILE having 2 pretty lengthy “lore quote” sections on thos pages.
And there’s so many, SO MANY wasted space in that book.
Page 4 and 7 are just small tiny lore paragraph written in ultra large gothic fonts, the most wordy pages detailing the crusade have a quarter of their space taken by odd illustration crop at the bottom of the pages, there’s a whole page that is literally just here to welcome you in the rule section, page 42 is literally an advert for the combat partrol box, the relic bearer rules takes two page when it could easily have taken 1 and still have space for some lore inserts (hell I just noticed they have been repeated IN FULL in the glossary on the last page, and they take about a third of a page max), there is SO MANY PICTURES of the same primaris crusader and sword brethren squad it’s not even bunny at this point.
And just to drive it home, 3rd end with a starmap showing where are some notable crusades and keeps, 9th just end on a glossary that repeat IN FULL the 2 pages vow content in less than a third of a page a couple of other stuff that have literally no reason to be there.
TLDR: This book just made me sad, because it really underlined how far down GW content went and the box itself felt empty and cheaply built and that's not even talking about the actual Black Templar Datasheet which are "strangely balanced" (read gak), like the cancerous "wargear option limited by sprue" for the sword breathren, the "shotgun<<carbin" for the noephyte, the fact that they somehow didn't thought to find a use to the 2 sets of power swords and axes in the crusader sprue outside of one of them being use by a sword bro (and you'll only use one of them if you build a 20man squad) apparentenly making axe and sword a special weapon like the first for the crusader squad totally went over GW head... (which is pretty funny when you remember that the sprue was such a focus when butchering the sword brethren gear option), they basically left the Land Raider crusader in the dust (apprently making a primaris exception for the crusader and sword breathren is still too much to ask, GW needs at least 4 edition to finally remove the stupid primaris restriction).
Am I happy to finally get some templar love? Sure!
But pretending it's perfect is just a bold faced lie, or a statement coming from someone with a pretty short term memory and very little standard.>
2021/10/22 14:14:39
Subject: Re:Black Templars Compiled thread(Updated 10/4) PREORDERS OCT 9.
Let me tell you, despite everything that had been said in this topic or elsewhere, I don't regret any euro invested.
The box itself is amazing, the sprues are generous and offers many options, the codex is a piece of art. Everything is above what I was hoping for regarding a Black Templar update. This is the box I have been dreaming of for years. It will be proudly stored on the top of my pile of shame.
Interesting take. Mine would be literally the opposite, I've written that down at Spikey Bits, but here's a copy pasta
Spoiler:
I want also to say that I've been pretty disappointed in that BT box.
Got mine, and it's frankly shocking how "cheap" the thing felt.
It's very light despite being so big and for good reason, the cardoard is one of thos very thinn stock you'd get for a starter box rather than sturdier stuff boxes like Indomitus are made of and the interior plastic holder that keeps the book and sprues in place is slo thin that it got torn off by the book moving inside (which also slightly damaged the book itself).
And speaking of book, oh boy that was the biggest disappointment of all. Despite having more pages than the 3rd edition codex, it felt way emptier, with mostly meaningless padding inside and a clear lack of actual information.
Let’s just make a quick side by side comparison just to drive home how BAD things are nowadays compared to previously. (Wall of text incoming, you've been warned).
The 3rd ed codex is 66 page long, the 9th is 80.
The 3rd is a FULL codex that contains all the infos required to play the army (datasheet of ALL units in the marine army, the rules for the Space marine army, the full armory, etc etc) .
The 9th is a supplement that only contains the new units and gears and rule of the BT.
The 3rd is also way easier to use since it was from a time where ALL the info were listed on the datasheet, INCLUDING THE POINT COST.
The 9th follow the current egregious trend where the points aren’t listed on the datasheet and you have to flip at the end of the book to know how much a unit or even just the gear options cost, this is the worst.
The 3rd had a lore introduction of the army starting from the great crusade and covering the heresy, the aftermath, the second founding and then cover the chapter and the spacemarine basic (creation, training and weapon) lore.
The 9th cover only Era indomitus and the chapter.
The 3rd explains the lore of each units, Black Templar specific or not (Neohpyte, Initiate, Sword Brethren, High Marshal, Marshal & Castellan, Emperor Champion, Techmarine, Dreadnoughts, Apothecary, Chaplains)
The 9th only have a summary description that could fit on a tweet for the units that got a datasheet.
The 3rd gives you a recap of 5 Crusades
The 9th gives you a recap of 3 Crusades
The 3rd had a schematic of each units in their data sheet.
The 9th have just a photo of a mini
The 3rd had a half a page of lore with the other half used by a gorgeous illustration (that were used to make the new minies) for the characters
The 9th have a very, VERY short basic description of the character (helbretch gets a page somewhere else)
The 3rd was a time where the rules you needed to play an army weren’t so convoluted.
The “Space Marine army” rules take a page, the Black Templar Special rules take another, the Vows take 2 more pages (mostly because half the page is taken by fluff exemple of a vow).
The 9th is a good representation of the bloated mess that the edition is (and remember, this is just the SUPPLEMENT stuff you need on top of the base Space Marine stuff not included in the book).
2 page is taken for the stratagem, 1 page for the Litanies, 1 page for the Warlord traits, 2 pages for the Relics, 2 pages for the Relic Bearer, 1 page for the chapter approved rules.
7 Pages are taken for the Crusade rules (the game mode).
The most painfully obvious part for me was the colorsheme part of the book.
The 3rd had 1 page with the standard “space marine colorsheme template” (you know the one), showing clearly what colors a marine have, indicating what should be on their kneepad and what the shoulderpad of a Initiate, Assault Squard, Chaplain, Neophyte, Sword Breathren and Apothercay should look like with the full banner and heraldry of 6 crusades (and their quite lore summary).
It’s then followed by a “painting black Templars” page that details in a very efficient manner (like GW used to be able to do back in the day) ALL the colors used, how to apply transfers and a quick tips on a couple of stuff that could be useful (skin, parchment, how to paint the gold on the sword brethren weapons).
It’s then followed by 8 pages going through each and EVERY single unit with photographical example of how to paint them (all of them using upgrade sprue), 1 top /front/side/back page just for the Land Raider Crusader, 2 page for a whole army and 1 page for some showcase of cool conversation/paint/diorama.
The 9th… first of all the 9th just flat out retconned the colorscheme of the Black Templars, which is pretty astonishing tbh. Their weapons are now suddenly red and their chest emblem are now gold… which makes them look EXACTLY like the Deathwatch now. The sword brethren also lost their gold weapons.
Other than that they only show 3 shoulder pad variants “Command, Battleline & Fire Support”, “Veteran”, “Close Support” (good luck deciding which is which).
There is detailed pictures of the new primaris crusaders and sword brethren. A LOT of pictures of these new models.
6 pages of them, accompanied with other random stuff in the background (namely primaris tanks, primaris dread and some time intercessor or outriders) NONE of them using any Black Templar bits from the upgrade sprue (old or new) with the exception of the terminator and land raider crusader (which are the very same models present in the 3rd book) taking up 1 page, then there’s 1 more page for the the characters (Helbretch, Grimaldus, Emperor’s Champion, Castelan.
Strangely enough the pimped out castellan based on Jone Blanche is only visible in the background of the next 2 page spread army shot (which really reinforce my idea that this model was probably originaly meant to be this years 40k Games Day mini).
Want to know how to paint phobos black Templar? How to play Blade Guard (Should they get white helmpets like the terminators? What about the shield)? Agressors? Any of the many other Primaris units I forgot?
Do you just want to know what paint to get and how to use it? Welp, tough luck it’s not in that book.
And here comes the most important part I want to drive home: the EXTREME laziness and padding of that book. How could it have 14 more pages than the 3rd despite having way less content than it?
Welp here’s some simple examples:
3rd has (without counting the aforementioned 8 pages of miniature photos+ double page spread army)
- 4 full art pages,
- 8 pages that have around 50% art,
- 8 pages with 30% art.
Most datasheet pages contains 2 units with a detailed (and loreful) explanation of their skills.
9th has (without counting the aforementioned 8 pages of new miniature pictures + double page spread army),
- 9 full art page,
- 17 pages that have around 50% of their space used by art,
- 8 where some random art has been slapped at the bottom of the page and eats a good 30% of the page.
Each of the 6 datasheet occupy a full page, with the bare minimum text possible and usually with either a picture of the mini taking half the page or just left blank.
For some reasons the fantastic art piece from MG that were used to make the new Grimaldus and Helbrech are not used (or used as a de-saturated background image under text), this is just... weird.
3rd managed to have both the loreful version and rule version of the 4 vows on the same 2 pages WHILE having 2 pretty lengthy “lore quote” sections on thos pages.
And there’s so many, SO MANY wasted space in that book.
Page 4 and 7 are just small tiny lore paragraph written in ultra large gothic fonts, the most wordy pages detailing the crusade have a quarter of their space taken by odd illustration crop at the bottom of the pages, there’s a whole page that is literally just here to welcome you in the rule section, page 42 is literally an advert for the combat partrol box, the relic bearer rules takes two page when it could easily have taken 1 and still have space for some lore inserts (hell I just noticed they have been repeated IN FULL in the glossary on the last page, and they take about a third of a page max), there is SO MANY PICTURES of the same primaris crusader and sword brethren squad it’s not even bunny at this point.
And just to drive it home, 3rd end with a starmap showing where are some notable crusades and keeps, 9th just end on a glossary that repeat IN FULL the 2 pages vow content in less than a third of a page a couple of other stuff that have literally no reason to be there.
TLDR: This book just made me sad, because it really underlined how far down GW content went and the box itself felt empty and cheaply built and that's not even talking about the actual Black Templar Datasheet which are "strangely balanced" (read gak), like the cancerous "wargear option limited by sprue" for the sword breathren, the "shotgun<<carbin" for the noephyte, the fact that they somehow didn't thought to find a use to the 2 sets of power swords and axes in the crusader sprue outside of one of them being use by a sword bro (and you'll only use one of them if you build a 20man squad) apparentenly making axe and sword a special weapon like the first for the crusader squad totally went over GW head... (which is pretty funny when you remember that the sprue was such a focus when butchering the sword brethren gear option), they basically left the Land Raider crusader in the dust (apprently making a primaris exception for the crusader and sword breathren is still too much to ask, GW needs at least 4 edition to finally remove the stupid primaris restriction).
Am I happy to finally get some templar love? Sure!
But pretending it's perfect is just a bold faced lie, or a statement coming from someone with a pretty short term memory and very little standard.>
Lol, did you see how they nerfed or sucked the life out of Deathwatch (or its essence) or everything in the past almost... That is how 9th is (the game where you don't interact with your opponent or your goal is to not get hurt)... I think taking that sucking drama into account BT still have flavour and maybe not the best, but have some teeth and will be fun to play.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/22 14:20:22
14k Generic Space Marine Chapters 20k Deathwatch 10k Sisters of Battle 3k Inquisition 4k Grey Knights 5k Imperial Guard 4k Harlequins 8k Tau
2021/10/22 14:19:44
Subject: Black Templars Compiled thread(Updated 10/4) PREORDERS OCT 9.
Lol, did you see how they nerfed or sucked the life out of Deathwatch (or its essence) or everything in the past almost... That is how 9th is... I think taking that sucking drama into account BT still have flavour and maybe not the best, but have some teeth and will be fun to play.
Fun fact, my original plan (since I love to maximum the "your dude" factor on my minies) was to go with Deathwatch when they announced the codex. I was middly excited about it.
Then it dropped and what we got is the laziest abortion I've ever seen.
What makes the Deathwatch is the special and unique gear, special ammo and ultra customizable Kill Teams.
What did we got instead? A massive reduction in the special ammo rules, almost no effort to create "primaris deathwatch", overall pretty weak rules.
Hell, they couldn't even make a primaris watch master or something.
If they really are THAT cheap that they don't want to create new sprues for a kill team primaris, they just had to make a beefier upgrade sprue that contains the special weapons a primaris kill team would use.
So yeah, BT didn't have it nearly as bad but when your supposed main line unit that literally got new sprue is not worth taking over the standard gak and the "flavour" (ie crusader look) is nowhere to be found in the upgrade sprue and have to be found in the crusader box itself.... a box which have half its content used by neophytes you dont really give a gak about and can't really sell off (at least until 10th and the new primaris scout datasheet)... welp, it doesn't feel as good as it should have.
2021/10/22 14:46:48
Subject: Black Templars Compiled thread(Updated 10/4) PREORDERS OCT 9.
I think the Primaris Crusader Squad sucks for an entirely different reason (morale), but the models can be used so easily to give your army a BT feel, even if you go full Primaris.
One PCS sprue gives you enough bits to make 6 robed Marine bodies, got enough chained weapons for two MSU squads including upgrades for the leader (Assault or regular Intercessors).
Until Crusader squads are more attractive, I will use my models either as Assault Intercessors made up of 1 SB, 2 Initiates and 2 Neophytes and/or use those Neophytes as stand ins for Incursor and Infiltrator.
a_typical_hero wrote: I think the Primaris Crusader Squad sucks for an entirely different reason (morale), but the models can be used so easily to give your army a BT feel, even if you go full Primaris.
Sure... if you are willing to buy an already overpriced unit just to use only half of it.
a_typical_hero wrote: One PCS sprue gives you enough bits to make 6 robed Marine bodies, got enough chained weapons for two MSU squads including upgrades for the leader (Assault or regular Intercessors).
Assault AND regular Intercessors, not "or" which is also a pretty important point.
a_typical_hero wrote: Until Crusader squads are more attractive, I will use my models either as Assault Intercessors made up of 1 SB, 2 Initiates and 2 Neophytes and/or use those Neophytes as stand ins for Incursor and Infiltrator.
A small detail that will bother you (if you care enough about that kind of thing) is that crusader and assault intercessor don't even have the same markings, so using them interchangeably is midly annoying.
2021/10/22 15:11:49
Subject: Black Templars Compiled thread(Updated 10/4) PREORDERS OCT 9.
Let me tell you, despite everything that had been said in this topic or elsewhere, I don't regret any euro invested.
The box itself is amazing, the sprues are generous and offers many options, the codex is a piece of art. Everything is above what I was hoping for regarding a Black Templar update. This is the box I have been dreaming of for years. It will be proudly stored on the top of my pile of shame.
Interesting take. Mine would be literally the opposite, I've written that down at Spikey Bits, but here's a copy pasta
Spoiler:
I want also to say that I've been pretty disappointed in that BT box.
Got mine, and it's frankly shocking how "cheap" the thing felt.
It's very light despite being so big and for good reason, the cardoard is one of thos very thinn stock you'd get for a starter box rather than sturdier stuff boxes like Indomitus are made of and the interior plastic holder that keeps the book and sprues in place is slo thin that it got torn off by the book moving inside (which also slightly damaged the book itself).
And speaking of book, oh boy that was the biggest disappointment of all. Despite having more pages than the 3rd edition codex, it felt way emptier, with mostly meaningless padding inside and a clear lack of actual information.
Let’s just make a quick side by side comparison just to drive home how BAD things are nowadays compared to previously. (Wall of text incoming, you've been warned).
The 3rd ed codex is 66 page long, the 9th is 80.
The 3rd is a FULL codex that contains all the infos required to play the army (datasheet of ALL units in the marine army, the rules for the Space marine army, the full armory, etc etc) .
The 9th is a supplement that only contains the new units and gears and rule of the BT.
The 3rd is also way easier to use since it was from a time where ALL the info were listed on the datasheet, INCLUDING THE POINT COST.
The 9th follow the current egregious trend where the points aren’t listed on the datasheet and you have to flip at the end of the book to know how much a unit or even just the gear options cost, this is the worst.
The 3rd had a lore introduction of the army starting from the great crusade and covering the heresy, the aftermath, the second founding and then cover the chapter and the spacemarine basic (creation, training and weapon) lore.
The 9th cover only Era indomitus and the chapter.
The 3rd explains the lore of each units, Black Templar specific or not (Neohpyte, Initiate, Sword Brethren, High Marshal, Marshal & Castellan, Emperor Champion, Techmarine, Dreadnoughts, Apothecary, Chaplains)
The 9th only have a summary description that could fit on a tweet for the units that got a datasheet.
The 3rd gives you a recap of 5 Crusades
The 9th gives you a recap of 3 Crusades
The 3rd had a schematic of each units in their data sheet.
The 9th have just a photo of a mini
The 3rd had a half a page of lore with the other half used by a gorgeous illustration (that were used to make the new minies) for the characters
The 9th have a very, VERY short basic description of the character (helbretch gets a page somewhere else)
The 3rd was a time where the rules you needed to play an army weren’t so convoluted.
The “Space Marine army” rules take a page, the Black Templar Special rules take another, the Vows take 2 more pages (mostly because half the page is taken by fluff exemple of a vow).
The 9th is a good representation of the bloated mess that the edition is (and remember, this is just the SUPPLEMENT stuff you need on top of the base Space Marine stuff not included in the book).
2 page is taken for the stratagem, 1 page for the Litanies, 1 page for the Warlord traits, 2 pages for the Relics, 2 pages for the Relic Bearer, 1 page for the chapter approved rules.
7 Pages are taken for the Crusade rules (the game mode).
The most painfully obvious part for me was the colorsheme part of the book.
The 3rd had 1 page with the standard “space marine colorsheme template” (you know the one), showing clearly what colors a marine have, indicating what should be on their kneepad and what the shoulderpad of a Initiate, Assault Squard, Chaplain, Neophyte, Sword Breathren and Apothercay should look like with the full banner and heraldry of 6 crusades (and their quite lore summary).
It’s then followed by a “painting black Templars” page that details in a very efficient manner (like GW used to be able to do back in the day) ALL the colors used, how to apply transfers and a quick tips on a couple of stuff that could be useful (skin, parchment, how to paint the gold on the sword brethren weapons).
It’s then followed by 8 pages going through each and EVERY single unit with photographical example of how to paint them (all of them using upgrade sprue), 1 top /front/side/back page just for the Land Raider Crusader, 2 page for a whole army and 1 page for some showcase of cool conversation/paint/diorama.
The 9th… first of all the 9th just flat out retconned the colorscheme of the Black Templars, which is pretty astonishing tbh. Their weapons are now suddenly red and their chest emblem are now gold… which makes them look EXACTLY like the Deathwatch now. The sword brethren also lost their gold weapons.
Other than that they only show 3 shoulder pad variants “Command, Battleline & Fire Support”, “Veteran”, “Close Support” (good luck deciding which is which).
There is detailed pictures of the new primaris crusaders and sword brethren. A LOT of pictures of these new models.
6 pages of them, accompanied with other random stuff in the background (namely primaris tanks, primaris dread and some time intercessor or outriders) NONE of them using any Black Templar bits from the upgrade sprue (old or new) with the exception of the terminator and land raider crusader (which are the very same models present in the 3rd book) taking up 1 page, then there’s 1 more page for the the characters (Helbretch, Grimaldus, Emperor’s Champion, Castelan.
Strangely enough the pimped out castellan based on Jone Blanche is only visible in the background of the next 2 page spread army shot (which really reinforce my idea that this model was probably originaly meant to be this years 40k Games Day mini).
Want to know how to paint phobos black Templar? How to play Blade Guard (Should they get white helmpets like the terminators? What about the shield)? Agressors? Any of the many other Primaris units I forgot?
Do you just want to know what paint to get and how to use it? Welp, tough luck it’s not in that book.
And here comes the most important part I want to drive home: the EXTREME laziness and padding of that book. How could it have 14 more pages than the 3rd despite having way less content than it?
Welp here’s some simple examples:
3rd has (without counting the aforementioned 8 pages of miniature photos+ double page spread army)
- 4 full art pages,
- 8 pages that have around 50% art,
- 8 pages with 30% art.
Most datasheet pages contains 2 units with a detailed (and loreful) explanation of their skills.
9th has (without counting the aforementioned 8 pages of new miniature pictures + double page spread army),
- 9 full art page,
- 17 pages that have around 50% of their space used by art,
- 8 where some random art has been slapped at the bottom of the page and eats a good 30% of the page.
Each of the 6 datasheet occupy a full page, with the bare minimum text possible and usually with either a picture of the mini taking half the page or just left blank.
For some reasons the fantastic art piece from MG that were used to make the new Grimaldus and Helbrech are not used (or used as a de-saturated background image under text), this is just... weird.
3rd managed to have both the loreful version and rule version of the 4 vows on the same 2 pages WHILE having 2 pretty lengthy “lore quote” sections on thos pages.
And there’s so many, SO MANY wasted space in that book.
Page 4 and 7 are just small tiny lore paragraph written in ultra large gothic fonts, the most wordy pages detailing the crusade have a quarter of their space taken by odd illustration crop at the bottom of the pages, there’s a whole page that is literally just here to welcome you in the rule section, page 42 is literally an advert for the combat partrol box, the relic bearer rules takes two page when it could easily have taken 1 and still have space for some lore inserts (hell I just noticed they have been repeated IN FULL in the glossary on the last page, and they take about a third of a page max), there is SO MANY PICTURES of the same primaris crusader and sword brethren squad it’s not even bunny at this point.
And just to drive it home, 3rd end with a starmap showing where are some notable crusades and keeps, 9th just end on a glossary that repeat IN FULL the 2 pages vow content in less than a third of a page a couple of other stuff that have literally no reason to be there.
TLDR: This book just made me sad, because it really underlined how far down GW content went and the box itself felt empty and cheaply built and that's not even talking about the actual Black Templar Datasheet which are "strangely balanced" (read gak), like the cancerous "wargear option limited by sprue" for the sword breathren, the "shotgun<<carbin" for the noephyte, the fact that they somehow didn't thought to find a use to the 2 sets of power swords and axes in the crusader sprue outside of one of them being use by a sword bro (and you'll only use one of them if you build a 20man squad) apparentenly making axe and sword a special weapon like the first for the crusader squad totally went over GW head... (which is pretty funny when you remember that the sprue was such a focus when butchering the sword brethren gear option), they basically left the Land Raider crusader in the dust (apprently making a primaris exception for the crusader and sword breathren is still too much to ask, GW needs at least 4 edition to finally remove the stupid primaris restriction).
Am I happy to finally get some templar love? Sure!
But pretending it's perfect is just a bold faced lie, or a statement coming from someone with a pretty short term memory and very little standard.>
I never said it was perfect. I never said it had the same "value" as Indomitus regarding content.
You are right about the lack of content. About the rules I can't tell. But, as stated before and as a third ed. BT enthusiast, I still love this box, maybe even more than Indomitus. The latter was a bargain and full of pretty new models, but it missed the dark/gothic aesthetic that appeals me in Warhammer. I still have the old BT codex, sure it was more complete, but collection wise I prefer the new one.
After many years eating ultrasmurf everywhere, on every book, every boxes, months of tacticool phobos/lieutenant releases, even this "little supplement" and few miniatures makes me really happy. This is probably really personal, I get it and I can understand not everyone share the same advice. It still gives me good hope for upcoming xenos releases.
Please avoid being pedantic. Not everyone has the same expectations, this is not about memory or "little standard". And sorry for my weird english.
2021/10/22 22:11:52
Subject: Black Templars Compiled thread(Updated 10/4) PREORDERS OCT 9.
a_typical_hero wrote: Until Crusader squads are more attractive, I will use my models either as Assault Intercessors made up of 1 SB, 2 Initiates and 2 Neophytes and/or use those Neophytes as stand ins for Incursor and Infiltrator.
A small detail that will bother you (if you care enough about that kind of thing) is that crusader and assault intercessor don't even have the same markings, so using them interchangeably is midly annoying.
The supplement does actually address this; Black Templars aren't particularly uniform (e.g. not all Veterans/SB wear the red and black) so this isn't a particularly impactful detail.
The Circle of Iniquity The Fourth Seal
2021/10/23 07:17:07
Subject: Re:Black Templars Compiled thread(Updated 10/4) PREORDERS OCT 9.
Let me tell you, despite everything that had been said in this topic or elsewhere, I don't regret any euro invested.
The box itself is amazing, the sprues are generous and offers many options, the codex is a piece of art. Everything is above what I was hoping for regarding a Black Templar update. This is the box I have been dreaming of for years. It will be proudly stored on the top of my pile of shame.
Interesting take. Mine would be literally the opposite, I've written that down at Spikey Bits, but here's a copy pasta
Spoiler:
I want also to say that I've been pretty disappointed in that BT box.
Got mine, and it's frankly shocking how "cheap" the thing felt.
It's very light despite being so big and for good reason, the cardoard is one of thos very thinn stock you'd get for a starter box rather than sturdier stuff boxes like Indomitus are made of and the interior plastic holder that keeps the book and sprues in place is slo thin that it got torn off by the book moving inside (which also slightly damaged the book itself).
And speaking of book, oh boy that was the biggest disappointment of all. Despite having more pages than the 3rd edition codex, it felt way emptier, with mostly meaningless padding inside and a clear lack of actual information.
Let’s just make a quick side by side comparison just to drive home how BAD things are nowadays compared to previously. (Wall of text incoming, you've been warned).
The 3rd ed codex is 66 page long, the 9th is 80.
The 3rd is a FULL codex that contains all the infos required to play the army (datasheet of ALL units in the marine army, the rules for the Space marine army, the full armory, etc etc) .
The 9th is a supplement that only contains the new units and gears and rule of the BT.
The 3rd is also way easier to use since it was from a time where ALL the info were listed on the datasheet, INCLUDING THE POINT COST.
The 9th follow the current egregious trend where the points aren’t listed on the datasheet and you have to flip at the end of the book to know how much a unit or even just the gear options cost, this is the worst.
The 3rd had a lore introduction of the army starting from the great crusade and covering the heresy, the aftermath, the second founding and then cover the chapter and the spacemarine basic (creation, training and weapon) lore.
The 9th cover only Era indomitus and the chapter.
The 3rd explains the lore of each units, Black Templar specific or not (Neohpyte, Initiate, Sword Brethren, High Marshal, Marshal & Castellan, Emperor Champion, Techmarine, Dreadnoughts, Apothecary, Chaplains)
The 9th only have a summary description that could fit on a tweet for the units that got a datasheet.
The 3rd gives you a recap of 5 Crusades
The 9th gives you a recap of 3 Crusades
The 3rd had a schematic of each units in their data sheet.
The 9th have just a photo of a mini
The 3rd had a half a page of lore with the other half used by a gorgeous illustration (that were used to make the new minies) for the characters
The 9th have a very, VERY short basic description of the character (helbretch gets a page somewhere else)
The 3rd was a time where the rules you needed to play an army weren’t so convoluted.
The “Space Marine army” rules take a page, the Black Templar Special rules take another, the Vows take 2 more pages (mostly because half the page is taken by fluff exemple of a vow).
The 9th is a good representation of the bloated mess that the edition is (and remember, this is just the SUPPLEMENT stuff you need on top of the base Space Marine stuff not included in the book).
2 page is taken for the stratagem, 1 page for the Litanies, 1 page for the Warlord traits, 2 pages for the Relics, 2 pages for the Relic Bearer, 1 page for the chapter approved rules.
7 Pages are taken for the Crusade rules (the game mode).
The most painfully obvious part for me was the colorsheme part of the book.
The 3rd had 1 page with the standard “space marine colorsheme template” (you know the one), showing clearly what colors a marine have, indicating what should be on their kneepad and what the shoulderpad of a Initiate, Assault Squard, Chaplain, Neophyte, Sword Breathren and Apothercay should look like with the full banner and heraldry of 6 crusades (and their quite lore summary).
It’s then followed by a “painting black Templars” page that details in a very efficient manner (like GW used to be able to do back in the day) ALL the colors used, how to apply transfers and a quick tips on a couple of stuff that could be useful (skin, parchment, how to paint the gold on the sword brethren weapons).
It’s then followed by 8 pages going through each and EVERY single unit with photographical example of how to paint them (all of them using upgrade sprue), 1 top /front/side/back page just for the Land Raider Crusader, 2 page for a whole army and 1 page for some showcase of cool conversation/paint/diorama.
The 9th… first of all the 9th just flat out retconned the colorscheme of the Black Templars, which is pretty astonishing tbh. Their weapons are now suddenly red and their chest emblem are now gold… which makes them look EXACTLY like the Deathwatch now. The sword brethren also lost their gold weapons.
Other than that they only show 3 shoulder pad variants “Command, Battleline & Fire Support”, “Veteran”, “Close Support” (good luck deciding which is which).
There is detailed pictures of the new primaris crusaders and sword brethren. A LOT of pictures of these new models.
6 pages of them, accompanied with other random stuff in the background (namely primaris tanks, primaris dread and some time intercessor or outriders) NONE of them using any Black Templar bits from the upgrade sprue (old or new) with the exception of the terminator and land raider crusader (which are the very same models present in the 3rd book) taking up 1 page, then there’s 1 more page for the the characters (Helbretch, Grimaldus, Emperor’s Champion, Castelan.
Strangely enough the pimped out castellan based on Jone Blanche is only visible in the background of the next 2 page spread army shot (which really reinforce my idea that this model was probably originaly meant to be this years 40k Games Day mini).
Want to know how to paint phobos black Templar? How to play Blade Guard (Should they get white helmpets like the terminators? What about the shield)? Agressors? Any of the many other Primaris units I forgot?
Do you just want to know what paint to get and how to use it? Welp, tough luck it’s not in that book.
And here comes the most important part I want to drive home: the EXTREME laziness and padding of that book. How could it have 14 more pages than the 3rd despite having way less content than it?
Welp here’s some simple examples:
3rd has (without counting the aforementioned 8 pages of miniature photos+ double page spread army)
- 4 full art pages,
- 8 pages that have around 50% art,
- 8 pages with 30% art.
Most datasheet pages contains 2 units with a detailed (and loreful) explanation of their skills.
9th has (without counting the aforementioned 8 pages of new miniature pictures + double page spread army),
- 9 full art page,
- 17 pages that have around 50% of their space used by art,
- 8 where some random art has been slapped at the bottom of the page and eats a good 30% of the page.
Each of the 6 datasheet occupy a full page, with the bare minimum text possible and usually with either a picture of the mini taking half the page or just left blank.
For some reasons the fantastic art piece from MG that were used to make the new Grimaldus and Helbrech are not used (or used as a de-saturated background image under text), this is just... weird.
3rd managed to have both the loreful version and rule version of the 4 vows on the same 2 pages WHILE having 2 pretty lengthy “lore quote” sections on thos pages.
And there’s so many, SO MANY wasted space in that book.
Page 4 and 7 are just small tiny lore paragraph written in ultra large gothic fonts, the most wordy pages detailing the crusade have a quarter of their space taken by odd illustration crop at the bottom of the pages, there’s a whole page that is literally just here to welcome you in the rule section, page 42 is literally an advert for the combat partrol box, the relic bearer rules takes two page when it could easily have taken 1 and still have space for some lore inserts (hell I just noticed they have been repeated IN FULL in the glossary on the last page, and they take about a third of a page max), there is SO MANY PICTURES of the same primaris crusader and sword brethren squad it’s not even bunny at this point.
And just to drive it home, 3rd end with a starmap showing where are some notable crusades and keeps, 9th just end on a glossary that repeat IN FULL the 2 pages vow content in less than a third of a page a couple of other stuff that have literally no reason to be there.
TLDR: This book just made me sad, because it really underlined how far down GW content went and the box itself felt empty and cheaply built and that's not even talking about the actual Black Templar Datasheet which are "strangely balanced" (read gak), like the cancerous "wargear option limited by sprue" for the sword breathren, the "shotgun<<carbin" for the noephyte, the fact that they somehow didn't thought to find a use to the 2 sets of power swords and axes in the crusader sprue outside of one of them being use by a sword bro (and you'll only use one of them if you build a 20man squad) apparentenly making axe and sword a special weapon like the first for the crusader squad totally went over GW head... (which is pretty funny when you remember that the sprue was such a focus when butchering the sword brethren gear option), they basically left the Land Raider crusader in the dust (apprently making a primaris exception for the crusader and sword breathren is still too much to ask, GW needs at least 4 edition to finally remove the stupid primaris restriction).
Am I happy to finally get some templar love? Sure!
But pretending it's perfect is just a bold faced lie, or a statement coming from someone with a pretty short term memory and very little standard.>
I never said it was perfect. I never said it had the same "value" as Indomitus regarding content.
You are right about the lack of content. About the rules I can't tell. But, as stated before and as a third ed. BT enthusiast, I still love this box, maybe even more than Indomitus. The latter was a bargain and full of pretty new models, but it missed the dark/gothic aesthetic that appeals me in Warhammer. I still have the old BT codex, sure it was more complete, but collection wise I prefer the new one.
After many years eating ultrasmurf everywhere, on every book, every boxes, months of tacticool phobos/lieutenant releases, even this "little supplement" and few miniatures makes me really happy. This is probably really personal, I get it and I can understand not everyone share the same advice. It still gives me good hope for upcoming xenos releases.
Please avoid being pedantic. Not everyone has the same expectations, this is not about memory or "little standard". And sorry for my weird english.
I'm sorry GW lowered your standards to such a degree you think this is a good box by any metric.
"Tabletop games are the only setting when a body is made more horrifying for NOT being chopped into smaller pieces."
- Jiado
2021/10/23 10:48:37
Subject: Re:Black Templars Compiled thread(Updated 10/4) PREORDERS OCT 9.
And well, 199$ worth of models according to GW. By any sane person or even Past GW's standards it would be like... 120$ at best. 40$ for a squad of 10 Marines, 40$ for a Dread and 40$ for two Characters, 20$ each.
"Tabletop games are the only setting when a body is made more horrifying for NOT being chopped into smaller pieces."
- Jiado
2021/10/23 11:06:41
Subject: Black Templars Compiled thread(Updated 10/4) PREORDERS OCT 9.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: What savings lmao it's 199$ for 199$ worth of miniatures and some paper waste you'll be able to get for free soon enough if you know where to look.
Even by your stand point your still not understanding basic personal preferences... some people may want it now, by the official channels and dont consider the content trash... So yes different people value different things.
What makes the Deathwatch is the special and unique gear, special ammo and ultra customizable Kill Teams.
What did we got instead? A massive reduction in the special ammo rules, almost no effort to create "primaris deathwatch", overall pretty weak rules.
Hell, they couldn't even make a primaris watch master or something.
If they really are THAT cheap that they don't want to create new sprues for a kill team primaris, they just had to make a beefier upgrade sprue that contains the special weapons a primaris kill team would use.
Not to derail the BT thread here, but the new Deathwatch Strikeforce is pretty much exactly what you are describing here. Emphasis on kill teams, customizable approach to the game with manipulation of doctrines and chapter tactic choices. SIA (sort of) in a couple of strats that Primaris can use.
2021/10/23 15:04:03
Subject: Re:Black Templars Compiled thread(Updated 10/4) PREORDERS OCT 9.
NAVARRO wrote:Everyone has different levels of enjoyment so let's just accept that. Its a personal thing at the end of the day.
Exactly my point yes.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
I'm sorry GW lowered your standards to such a degree you think this is a good box by any metric.
I'm sorry I can't find anywhere any f*** to give about your advice. I'm in the hobby for 20years and I don't need some random troll on the internet to tell me how to enjoy it.
2021/10/23 15:19:21
Subject: Re:Black Templars Compiled thread(Updated 10/4) PREORDERS OCT 9.
NAVARRO wrote:Everyone has different levels of enjoyment so let's just accept that. Its a personal thing at the end of the day.
Exactly my point yes.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
I'm sorry GW lowered your standards to such a degree you think this is a good box by any metric.
I'm sorry I can't find anywhere any f*** to give about your advice. I'm in the hobby for 20years and I don't need some random troll on the internet to tell me how to enjoy it.
If anyone, a random guy with 20 posts, saying this is a good box with good value is the one more likely to be a troll.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/10/23 15:21:07
"Tabletop games are the only setting when a body is made more horrifying for NOT being chopped into smaller pieces."
- Jiado
2021/10/23 15:38:42
Subject: Re:Black Templars Compiled thread(Updated 10/4) PREORDERS OCT 9.
NAVARRO wrote:Everyone has different levels of enjoyment so let's just accept that. Its a personal thing at the end of the day.
Exactly my point yes.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
I'm sorry GW lowered your standards to such a degree you think this is a good box by any metric.
I'm sorry I can't find anywhere any f*** to give about your advice. I'm in the hobby for 20years and I don't need some random troll on the internet to tell me how to enjoy it.
If anyone, a random guy with 20 posts, saying this is a good box with good value is the one more likely to be a troll.
Except the guy never said anything of good value.
He said he is happy that BT got a new box which has stuff in it that represents Black Templars. Let a man enjoy their Black Templar.
And this is the second time, in the same thread afaik, you saying that someone with a low post count is more likely to be a troll.
Will I be number 3 now?
From the the pages i read here the only thing you do is complain. I get it, GW is bad, and they really hurt you, but how about you shut up and get out. Idk why you are even still here, except to gak on anyone who says anything remotely good about this BT release.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/23 15:40:21
2021/10/23 16:27:34
Subject: Black Templars Compiled thread(Updated 10/4) PREORDERS OCT 9.
Just want to chime in with my now 1112 post count to say that I enjoy the box' contents and I'm happy to own all of the things inside. Maybe not the datacards, but whatever
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/23 16:27:40
NAVARRO wrote:Everyone has different levels of enjoyment so let's just accept that. Its a personal thing at the end of the day.
Exactly my point yes.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
I'm sorry GW lowered your standards to such a degree you think this is a good box by any metric.
I'm sorry I can't find anywhere any f*** to give about your advice. I'm in the hobby for 20years and I don't need some random troll on the internet to tell me how to enjoy it.
If anyone, a random guy with 20 posts, saying this is a good box with good value is the one more likely to be a troll.
Except the guy never said anything of good value.
He said he is happy that BT got a new box which has stuff in it that represents Black Templars. Let a man enjoy their Black Templar.
And this is the second time, in the same thread afaik, you saying that someone with a low post count is more likely to be a troll.
Will I be number 3 now?
From the the pages i read here the only thing you do is complain. I get it, GW is bad, and they really hurt you, but how about you shut up and get out. Idk why you are even still here, except to gak on anyone who says anything remotely good about this BT release.
I find the ignore function has noticeably increased my enjoyment of this forum
2021/10/23 18:24:05
Subject: Re:Black Templars Compiled thread(Updated 10/4) PREORDERS OCT 9.
NAVARRO wrote:Everyone has different levels of enjoyment so let's just accept that. Its a personal thing at the end of the day.
Exactly my point yes.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
I'm sorry GW lowered your standards to such a degree you think this is a good box by any metric.
I'm sorry I can't find anywhere any f*** to give about your advice. I'm in the hobby for 20years and I don't need some random troll on the internet to tell me how to enjoy it.
If anyone, a random guy with 20 posts, saying this is a good box with good value is the one more likely to be a troll.
Except the guy never said anything of good value.
He said he is happy that BT got a new box which has stuff in it that represents Black Templars. Let a man enjoy their Black Templar.
And this is the second time, in the same thread afaik, you saying that someone with a low post count is more likely to be a troll.
Will I be number 3 now?
From the the pages i read here the only thing you do is complain. I get it, GW is bad, and they really hurt you, but how about you shut up and get out. Idk why you are even still here, except to gak on anyone who says anything remotely good about this BT release.
I find the ignore function has noticeably increased my enjoyment of this forum
Very true, unfortunately people keep quoting and engaging the real trolls.
LOL, Theo your mind is an amazing place, never change.-camkierhi 9/19/13
I cant believe theo is right.. damn. -comradepanda 9/26/13
None of the strange ideas we had about you involved your sexual orientation..........-Monkeytroll 12/10/13
I'd put you on ignore for that comment, if I could...Alpharius 2/11/14
Eldar 
Imperial Guard 
Space Marines
