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 addnid wrote:
But obviously, pay 20 for the two S9 big gunz, and their magic D3+3 damage. That and the aerial KFF. Don’t skimp on any costs aside from the supa shooters imho.

I for one don’t have too much trouble with Deathguard, but it really comes down to how lucky they get with the crawlers. I beat one at a RTT 9 days ago, the player was pretty good, I went second (as I did all tournament). Wazbomb whiffed, sguig lauchers wiffed, but I managed to hold more primaries most turns and this gave me my victory (12 me, 08 him, for those familiar with WTC scoring). Something like 79 points me and around 60 him.

I was on dawn of war deployment though, so I stretched him thin enough, even though he didn’t fall for my baiting. deathguard are much tougher to beat when the deploy zone is not as wide (In narrow deployments I lose more than I win against them, especially if I go second)

Sadly i dont have any plane :( (Old V4 Ork here).

Anything usable by road or foot ?

epronovost wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
perfect question for Jidman since I believe his second army is DG. But in my experience the best way to deal with Deathguard is to eliminate the priority targets like the Plagueburst crawlers and the contemptor and than pick off the other stuff at your leisure since they don't pose a threat at range anymore.

Easier said than done though. Plagueburst Crawlers are tough tanks and Orks have little long range anti-tank capacity. It could be tough with a close combat focused army without a Kill Rig (which is pretty good at sniping tanks even though its attaks are all short range). I would personnaly try to go with an outflanking group squighob boyz with squig bombs or something like that under such circumstances.

Yup, DG are my second army - after all, green is da best, right? It's also a great army to have in addition to orks because they are pretty much the exact opposite of everything that is orks, except they fight just as well (possibly better?) in in melee.

In any case, DG are a PITA to handle for orks because for one they get vastly more powerful the closer they get. Not just their contagions, but most weapons and psychic powers are also short ranged (12-24") plus they have many bespoke rules, relics and warlord traits that cause debuffs and/or MW at close range. In combat there are few armies that hit as hard DG do, plus they have tons of stratagems to support them to solve pretty much any possible situation. Any terminator unit can blend themselves through 30 boyz in two turns, so don't try to fight them on their terms. Also be aware that there is a stratagem that allows terminators in combat to drop your LD by 4, which I have found to be ridiculously powerful against armies without ld mitigation like orks.
On top of that, many ork weapons cause 2 damage which is where their DR shines, while we are lacking those 3+d3 damage weapons that can easily off terminators.
Last, but not least, they can toss a pile of mortal wounds at whatever they want, ignoring T5, ramshackle, -1 to hit and any invuls you might have.

The army list he is running is fairly close to the current cookie-cutter builds, with poxwalkers for holding backfield and screening, plagueburst crawlers shelling your from out of LOS using the stratagem for 3 damage and MW and a contemptor which are just good at shooting everything. Meanwhile the terminators move up the field and push the enemy off objectives. Fairly straight forward, and very similar to what I'm usually running - there is not that much you can vary with such a small codex. By any chance, do you know which plague fleet he is running?

So, enough about DG, what can you do as an ork player?
- taking out those PBC and the contemptor as soon as possible makes a huge difference, but then again the PBCs are most likely hiding as long as they can while being protected by pox walkers. Without planes or SJD you are unlikely to get good shots at them, but one of them ever comes out of hiding, make sure to punish it. Unlike in 8th they are no longer unkillable behemoths, but roughly as durable as a LRBT - assuming you are shooting them with d6 or 3 damage weapons. Outside of those units DG have next to no shooting, but even a single stratagem-powered PBC can ruin your backfield.
- Pox walkers can screen, but they will still die easily to units like kommadoz, koptas or warbikers. Just make sure to absolutely kill them to the last one, as otherwise the DG player can add 4-5 new models to the unit with a stratagem, plus they have good chance of killing boyz which also adds new pox walkers. Once you got past the poxes, you can try to tag the PBC in combat. It does have some non-trivial shooting even when locked down, but anything is better than it shelling stuff out of sight with the stratagem.
- The only weapons which really kill DG terminators well are d6 or 3+d6 or better weapons. Rokkits get reduced to 2 damage, so you need two rokkits to kill one terminator - at 4++/T5 this is a huge investment. When charging them, always make sure to overkill them. Mathhammer usually relies on averages, but with 4++ saves those averages are a gamble at best.
- The other thing that terminators really don't like is mortal wounds. Beastboss on squigosaur, nob on smasha squig, kill rig, spiked ram and ramming speed all can cheat away some of those annoying 40/50 point models. If you have the choice, you should try to take out the deathshrouds first, the big brick of blightlords needs to be ground down over time or simply ignored.
- Should you ever have the chance to snipe the daemon prince, do it. Keep in mind that it cannot be targeted whatsoever as long as it's near deathshroud.
- I don't think there is a good way for orks to get rid of Typhus unless he is walking around by himself. A beastboss with 'eadwhompa might get lucky, but if you fail Typhus kills pretty much anything when he gets to fight back.
- DG suck at killing vehicles, especially those with ramshackle. Outside of the PBC, none of their weapons have a higher strength than 7 since they rely on the -1T to do damage.
- DG are extremely slow and cannot change their pre-determined battle plan easily. If you crush one flank, their other flank will be unable to respond outside of shooting buffed bolters at you. If the mission allows you to get 3 objectives that way, do it. If you attack their backfield, their frontline will not be able to return to help them. Just make sure to do one thing properly, and not spread your units around. Any tactic that banks on attrition like tarpitting, screening or prolonged combats will - just like in the lore - play into the DG's hands.
- On the same note, the easiest way to speed up for the DG is by making charge moves. Try to avoid giving them 8-10" charges either by getting out of their range, or by moving closer and blocking them using terrain (be aware, they ignore difficult). You really don't want to give a free 15" movement to a unit of DG terminators. This kind of list tends to win by flipping objectives, so running off an objective is sometimes the better choice. This way you get to keep your unit and they have to get onto the objective with their 5" move or advance and lose their shooting.
- For both of the above reasons, walling in DG with kommandoz like you do with DE or marines is a bad idea. Deployed at 9", the terminators still get to move 5", charge 4" or more and then pile in and consolidate to more than double their movement in T1. Instead, hide them out of sight and try to get into the backfield to slaughter poxwalkers and block PBC. If there are some tall ruins, you can also try to hide on higher levels, as an experienced DG player will never move up a level with their terminators - doing so is essentially the same as taking them out of the game.

Slight change of topic before goin g back to ork match ups: do you guys think we can launch sguig bombs while being engaged in CC ? Just like if they were pistol weapons ? They aren’t really a shooting weapon

Wow, thank you for your long answer. I will try to apply it on the battlefield.

The DG company he used is the one with the stratagem which gives me minus two to my charge so I can't deepstrike and charge the PBC (or making 11") !

Beardedragon wrote:
I only hate playing against DG if they bring mortarion and i happen to run Freebootas army, which, frankly i and most people tend to do these days.

Because what the feth do you do? You want to get that +1 to hit by killing something, but usually you also want to fire all your big guns at mortarion because if you dont he will wreck havoc the entire game.

So i can never figure out if i should aim all my guns, that are str 8 or +1 to wound at mortarion, essentially having no klan kulture because nothing dies that round, or kill something else first, and then go for mortarion with fewer guns.

Its an annoying conundrum.

best i can hope for is killing poxwalkers first with big shootas and the like if they bring any.

Simply not killing Mortarion is an option though. Spread out, deny him the possibility to kill multiple units in one turn and, if possible, feed him expendable units. That said, especially squig buggies are fairly good at killing pox walkers and bad at damaging Mortarion, so you could just lob squigs at them to wipe a unit.

Killing Mortarion is nothing but a gear check. You can simply do test rolls against his profile, and if you find your army unable to reliable down him by turn 2, I just wouldn't bother.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Afrodactyl wrote:
I agree, Orks are in dire need of something to deal with morale. You could have something like Orks within 6" of the Warlord are fearless, Nobz mitigate casualties from attrition, bosspoles doing something, etc. There's loads of ways to work it.

Mitigate is not the same as ignore. Any mechanic that allows you to ignore moral is a bad one, so there should absolutely not be a fearless aura in any army.

I disagree for one faction it would be fitting to have a fearless aura. Tyranids when in synapse range. The hive mind is telling them go here and do that and they have no free will to do anything else. outside of synapse range and when under instinctual behavior i would 100% agree they should have low leadership and have a good chance to run as that is what predators do when there is a threat.

I think ld10 would be enough to showcase the complete lack of free will, they aren't that different to necrons in that regard. Even the hive mind wouldn't just keep tossing its gaunts or gargoyles into the grinder when they get obliterated by the dozen and falling back is an option. The only things that should be absolutely fearless are those without the ability to think.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 addnid wrote:
Slight change of topic before goin g back to ork match ups: do you guys think we can launch sguig bombs while being engaged in CC ? Just like if they were pistol weapons ? They aren’t really a shooting weapon

The only requirement for using them is selecting the unit to shoot, and nothing prevents you from doing that while engaged in combat.

Note that units which have advanced or fallen back are not eligible to shoot and therefore cannot be selected to shoot.

Unless, of course, they contain at least one assault weapon, which allows them to be selected anyways.

Hilariously this means that a unit of kommandoz that has advanced is not allowed to throw their bomb squig UNLESS you buy them a burna

I wouldn't bother with killing Mortarion using orks. Armies like drukhari should definitely go for it, but even the best freebooters lists struggle against that kind of target. I think it's more rewarding if you focus on the other units, score your points and slow down the big guy with expendable units. At least I had decent results againt him by playing this way.

Deathguard in general are a tough opponent for orks though.

Thanks Jidmah for great resume!

I lost agsinst DG on a tournament last Weekend. He had 3 fw drones, 2 cc drones 5 blight haulers, 1 plc, Prince, caster and a summoned Epidemius, I was running a pretty standard flyer speedfreak list with 3 dakkajets, wazbom, 2 scrapjets, 2 squigbuggies, kannonwagon killrig, beastboss, bikeboss and kommandos/ Stormboyz. I never really stood a chance because his units are tougher than mine and have more output with same mobility. Epidemius buffs the cc to S8, so the lawnmower drones ignore ramshackle - I still don't know how I could have won that game...

Epidemius only buffs them to S8 after you have lost 4 units though. Before that happens, the only real threats to your vehicles are the MBH with their multi-meltas and the PBC, so focus them down first. Make sure to play defensively and focus on not feeding the tally. With 4 planes and that much shooting power it should also be possible to create an opening to assassinate epidemius, removing his buff completely.

I played against 3 Kill Rigs and damn are they monstrous!

Fast, access to reroll charges & longer charges. A really tough profile, T8 & ramshackle make them virtually immune (twice as tough) to chip damage.

Decent in shooting with the auto hits, will do a couple mortal wounds easily in the psychic phase and alarmingly murderous in melee.

And cheap. And can transport Boyz.

Is everyone fielding 3, if not why not. And how do you handle them?

They can only transport snaggaboys

They count toward assassinate secondary

They are big models that clog up movement

You only get the rerolls on main weapon if you cast a psychic power which is harder to do when you only have a choice of 6 powers half of which aren’t good or extremely situational.

I think the sweet spot is 2 with some buggy spam so the killrigs become sponges for the buggies.

I’m still waiting to see how they do in tournaments.

note that you can cast a power w/o a valid target. The rules are "Attempt to manifest a power. If successful, do X"

Razerous wrote:
I played against 3 Kill Rigs and damn are they monstrous!

Is everyone fielding 3, if not why not. And how do you handle them?

I really like Kill Rigs on paper, but despise the model. It's probably the only Ork model in the range currently that I don't like.

Once I settle on an idea as to how I want to convert one, I'll add a few to my list.


There's a list I drafted the other day that I want to muck about with that has 3 kill tanks, 2 kill rigs and a bonebreaker. Just dump 120 T8 wounds in front of your opponent and watch them sweat

What clan and what type of list with Killrig have you met?

Because I' m definitely not sure, Killrigs are something that have to acompany the buggies. Could be, but I think about how to use the, as Goffs with Waaagh or even Great Waaagh. In such case, buggies are not so much in synergy. On the other the Warbikers do…. So maybe Killrigs in the midle, warbikers around and some MekGunz holding the backfield and shoot?

There's nothing wrong with goff buggies or koptas. Especially if you're running an aggressive assault list with multiple killings.

Goff buggies?

what?

Koptas i agree but buggies? the ones that actually have a melee profile hits on 4s and only have 4 attacks. You get more from buffing their shooting than their melee.

There's nothing wrong with goff buggies or koptas. Especially if you're running an aggressive assault list with multiple killings.

Goffs is literally the worst clan to take for buggies.

I think the sweet spot is 2 with some buggy spam so the killrigs become sponges for the buggies.

I’m still waiting to see how they do in tournaments.

Agree on two Kill Rigs being the sweet spot.
I think 3 might be ok but for a good list you normally want to have stuff like Kommandos, Stormboys, a few HQ's and some buggies and / or other melee threads, at which point you run out of points fast.
Not to mention traffic jam and opening up on secondaries.

Although there might be a possible list without buggies that triples down on Killrigs and rushes the opponent with Squigbosses, Kommandos, Stormboys, Trukkboys and Squighog Boys.

 Tomsug wrote:
What clan and what type of list with Killrig have you met?

Because I' m definitely not sure, Killrigs are something that have to acompany the buggies. Could be, but I think about how to use the, as Goffs with Waaagh or even Great Waaagh. In such case, buggies are not so much in synergy. On the other the Warbikers do…. So maybe Killrigs in the midle, warbikers around and some MekGunz holding the backfield and shoot?

Goffs - hitting on 2's (basically) is scary.

The re-roll is to the charge roll, which is baked in. They can also use a strat for 3D6 charges, combined with a Waaah means 4D6 charges (reroll half)

The assassinate secondary is interesting.

Goonhammer Meta Review have some stats about orks.

https://www.goonhammer.com/the-october-2021-40k-meta-review/

Summary:
1. Orks are cool, definitely in something like top 10 or better. More and more people play orks.
2. We have pretty solid “balanced” proportion between go first - go second - about 9,3%. Which is not good, but definitely better than 21,7% like AdMech.
3. Our secondaries sucks. Nobody takes it and if, scores badly. The most common and most succesfull is Stomp em Good - wtf? Confess! Who play it?

Looks like we are in a good position.. we are not dominating in the top tables to get hit much if at all with the nerf bat… and we have room for growth with the just released models now being allowed in lost tournaments/games…. Plus hopeful with a campaign book 2 addition. I’m happy not being included in the top 3 broken codex list.

 Tomsug wrote:

3. Our secondaries sucks. Nobody takes it and if, scores badly. The most common and most succesfull is Stomp em Good - wtf? Confess! Who play it?

I do with a Goff close combat list. It's pretty easy since Goff Boyz and the rest are punchy for their point cost and our HQ pretty darn ham.

I’m just hoping our meta shifts with octarius or something. Biggest hope is some sorts stormboyz wing, dread mob, or green tide. That and all of orkimedes gubbinz from the old ghaz supplement. Mega force field was the best thing for orks in 7th.

With regards to Death Guard, a good trick could be to field som Squigosaurs, and give the Beast Gob to one of them. Then the jaws damage gets pushed to a flat 4, letting them chew up those stinky terminators.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
I’m just hoping our meta shifts with octarius or something. Biggest hope is some sorts stormboyz wing, dread mob, or green tide. That and all of orkimedes gubbinz from the old ghaz supplement. Mega force field was the best thing for orks in 7th.

Dred mob would be fantastic. I got really excited seeing the WALKERZ keyword in the FW Compendium and I immediately got disappointed with the lack of keyword interaction in the new ork codex. Having something to boost taking killa kanz and Morka/Gorkanauts to offset their current lack of klan rules (since most people aren't taking 3 Morka/Gorkanauts in a list) and having Big Meks actually giving them boosts ala Buzzgob rather than struggle to keep up and heal them. Having a KFF that doesn't blow up after using the strat or gives a baseline 5++ aura would be great and other strats/kustom jobs that are more meaningful for our walkerz would be good.

I doubt green tide will be brought back to life via supplement, I'd expect more of a Beast Snagga specific Regiment of Renown if anything.

Beardedragon wrote:
Goff buggies?

what?

Koptas i agree but buggies? the ones that actually have a melee profile hits on 4s and only have 4 attacks. You get more from buffing their shooting than their melee.

Don't forget that something like a skrapjet does around 1/3 of it's damage in mellee.

pismakron wrote:
With regards to Death Guard, a good trick could be to field som Squigosaurs, and give the Beast Gob to one of them. Then the jaws damage gets pushed to a flat 4, letting them chew up those stinky terminators.

Not really. You only get 3 bites and a 4++ save fully negates one. 2-3 deathshrouds or 7-8 blightlords can still easily kill a beastboss on squigosaur. You are tossing away an expensive character to kill less than its points. Same is true for Thrakka, by the way.
In my experience this kind of decision is what makes me win many games with my DG, people rely on averages, underestimate how durable they are and how much they can kill in close combat.

 koooaei wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
Goff buggies?

what?

Koptas i agree but buggies? the ones that actually have a melee profile hits on 4s and only have 4 attacks. You get more from buffing their shooting than their melee.

Don't forget that something like a skrapjet does around 1/3 of it's damage in mellee.

I mean kinda, if skrapjets still had the korkscrew upgrade I think they would be fine as Goffs, but with only 4 attacks, they aren't exactly super reliable even with exploding 6's.

Ya the only vehicle I can see benefiting from goff is Killrig with its 14 melee atks. 8 of those atks benefit from the +1 str by hitting those str6 str8 levels. And exploding 6s has a decent chance at going off.
If youre somehow able to get a fist of gork psychic power off on it as well… you have one of the best ork melee vehicles in game. With 16x str8+ atks with exploding 6s.

But on normal buggies I wouldn’t put a buggy in that klan unless I had no other clan to put it in. You are better off with deathskulls reroll for shooting and melee and the 5++ toward invuls.

Getting Scrapjet in melee is either “kill the last bastard” situation or the last round srapjet do something usefull. Rokkit cannon is the blast. It cannot shoot in CC. If you lock scrapjet in CC, you wasted it.

The damage output is not that different... you lose rokkit kannon, which is 6 sots s8 - 2 3flat hitting on 5+ and gain 4 attacks S8 -2 d3 + approx. 1 mw in the charge plus another 4 attacks in the opponents cc phase ( he could of course fall back, but then you wouldn't lose your shooting...), so you basically do double the hits, but with Dd3 instead of flat 3...