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Made in se
Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!






Indeed. Seems like 4 custodes has become the swear word of the game. I wonder if their rules gets FAQd/errata'd down at some point?

Still want to build a Talons Of The Emperor team at some point, but I'll probably be playing a 2+5 team most of the time instead of 2+2. To much cheese is bad for the game.



This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/27 15:35:19


 
   
Made in ca
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 tauist wrote:

Only thing that's changed from KT18 is that playing on a larger board is no longer as straightforward as it used to be. If someone has a lot of slow moving melee only troops (poxwalkers), 4 turning points isnt even enough to get across the board.. I'd say 3 feet by 3 feet is perhaps the biggest board size that still works? Which is a bit of a prob for me personally because I've invested financially into 4x4 feet (realm of battle tiles, foldable 4x4 table). I suppose 4x4 can still work for shootier factions and certain missions, provided a turning point or two get added to the mission lenght. Not a prob, Open Play (Matched play with "houserules") is how we roll.


Well, the game is balanced based on the 22x30 board, if you're going to increase it, you're going to end up with a host of problems, not to say it can't be done, but you'll want to think of how it changes things.
1. As you said, some armies like Poxwalkers are slower. Maybe go to 5 turning points?
2. Range is still infinite. Maybe put a cap of 18" for most weapons? This will keep melee from being shot off the table.
3. Units more spread out. Some secondary objectives like Rob & ransack will be easier to achieve while others like Rout can be harder. Also ones that require you to reach your opponents DZ would be harder, but that could be modified again by changing to 5 turning points.
4. Additional Turning Points. While this may solve some problems, it also makes progressive secondary objective that you can get one VP each turn better than those that cap at 2.

My point with all this is really that changing up anything has vast ramifications and can easily unbalance the game if you're not careful. Honestly, if you're going to play 4x4, I'd just run 2-3 Kill Teams per person, I've been meaning to try that out myself, just haven't had a chance yet.

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I think increasing the amt of turning points is a necessity if one wants to play on a bigger board. Unlimited range is not really a problem as long as there is enough terrain, because LOS will be limited and in most cases it is trivial to set up the board so that firing lines dont run from end to end of the board.

Reaching the opponents DZ is a tricky one. Not concerned about progressive objectives becoming more valuable, since this will apply to both teams equally.

I do realize that changing the board size has serious consequences, but that's kind of the point, because some of those consequences are exactly what I want in my games of KT (Intensifying of the action towards the end of the game). 22" x 30" is so small that pretty much everything, from melee to grabbing objectives, can happen on every turning point, and that flattens the experience IMO.

I think I'll try 36" x 36" next time
   
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 tauist wrote:


Reaching the opponents DZ is a tricky one. Not concerned about progressive objectives becoming more valuable, since this will apply to both teams equally.

I do realize that changing the board size has serious consequences, but that's kind of the point, because some of those consequences are exactly what I want in my games of KT (Intensifying of the action towards the end of the game). 22" x 30" is so small that pretty much everything, from melee to grabbing objectives, can happen on every turning point, and that flattens the experience IMO.

I think I'll try 36" x 36" next time


Maybe slightly larger DZ's? But if they get too big, it somewhat defeats the purpose.

Yeah, but then it makes some much more favorable than others and people will pick the same ones each game.

Yeah, I agree. Right now, it feels like every turning point is the "end of the game" which is fine if that is the feel you want from your game. Personally, I think it would be fun to play some more maneuvering and strategy before getting stuck in the thick of things.

I hope you'll let us know how it goes. I'm working on building a large scale Kill Team campaign for some friends that will have quite a few larger missions so any insights on balance / potential issues would be greatly appreciated.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/27 21:57:33


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I keep wondering about playing double KT using matched play rules.

Set up two different KZs next to each other. Long sides touching.

Doube the KT sizes and start with 4 CP instead of 2. Still limit the CP in Initiative to 1.

Players select one DZ in one KZ then get the DZ on the opposite side of the other KZ.

Deploy KTs in whichever DZ you want.

Play 8 turns. Draw 6 tac ops cards. Doube everything else I can't think of.
   
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 redux wrote:
I keep wondering about playing double KT using matched play rules.

Set up two different KZs next to each other. Long sides touching.

Doube the KT sizes and start with 4 CP instead of 2. Still limit the CP in Initiative to 1.

Players select one DZ in one KZ then get the DZ on the opposite side of the other KZ.

Deploy KTs in whichever DZ you want.

Play 8 turns. Draw 6 tac ops cards. Doube everything else I can't think of.


so you mean a 44" x 30" board? That's okay as long as the "melee only" operatives in the teams arent slow moving (poxwalker slow).
8 turning points? Should work as well. Drawing 6 tac ops cards is a pickle, since each tac ops category only has a maximum of 6 cards - this means that everyone will know 100% reliably which cards their opponent will have as long as they know the category a team chose.

But by all means, give it a try! Learning by doing is often the best way to get a feel for these sort of things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Tawnis wrote:
 tauist wrote:


Reaching the opponents DZ is a tricky one. Not concerned about progressive objectives becoming more valuable, since this will apply to both teams equally.

I do realize that changing the board size has serious consequences, but that's kind of the point, because some of those consequences are exactly what I want in my games of KT (Intensifying of the action towards the end of the game). 22" x 30" is so small that pretty much everything, from melee to grabbing objectives, can happen on every turning point, and that flattens the experience IMO.

I think I'll try 36" x 36" next time


Maybe slightly larger DZ's? But if they get too big, it somewhat defeats the purpose.

Yeah, but then it makes some much more favorable than others and people will pick the same ones each game.

Yeah, I agree. Right now, it feels like every turning point is the "end of the game" which is fine if that is the feel you want from your game. Personally, I think it would be fun to play some more maneuvering and strategy before getting stuck in the thick of things.

I hope you'll let us know how it goes. I'm working on building a large scale Kill Team campaign for some friends that will have quite a few larger missions so any insights on balance / potential issues would be greatly appreciated.


Absolutely. I'm all about KT21, will keep on posting my experiences for sure!

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/28 09:10:44


 
   
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Games Workshop is destroying Kill Team by releasing rules for factions in White Dwarf. Another classic move by GW to flush a what would otherwise be a vibrant and longlasting game community down the drain.
   
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 Gregor Samsa wrote:
Games Workshop is destroying Kill Team by releasing rules for factions in White Dwarf. Another classic move by GW to flush a what would otherwise be a vibrant and longlasting game community down the drain.


I'm 100% sure GW will release a new "Annual" style book with all the WD teams inside. You'll obvsly have to wait at least 6 months to a year to get it, but I'm sure it's coming.

As much as it sucks, this tactic is making me want to buy WD mags again after decades of disinterest, so it's working for them. From GW's POV, KT factions are a great fit as magazine articles, they add significant value to the game but only take a reasonable page count from a single issue.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/29 16:34:21


 
   
Made in ca
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 tauist wrote:
 Gregor Samsa wrote:
Games Workshop is destroying Kill Team by releasing rules for factions in White Dwarf. Another classic move by GW to flush a what would otherwise be a vibrant and longlasting game community down the drain.


I'm 100% sure GW will release a new "Annual" style book with all the WD teams inside. You'll obvsly have to wait at least 6 months to a year to get it, but I'm sure it's coming.

As much as it sucks, this tactic is making me want to buy WD mags again after decades of disinterest, so it's working for them. From GW's POV, KT factions are a great fit as magazine articles, they add significant value to the game but only take a reasonable page count from a single issue.



Yeah, totally agree that it's working. This is the first time I've strongly considered getting a White Dwarf and I don't even play AdMech.

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 Gregor Samsa wrote:
Games Workshop is destroying Kill Team by releasing rules for factions in White Dwarf. Another classic move by GW to flush a what would otherwise be a vibrant and longlasting game community down the drain.

How is putting out new content for a game via optional "DLC" a bad thing for a game? It's not like you're going to need to buy every single one of them if you're not planning to build those KTs yourself.

It is a bit frustrating for players of those factions who just bought the Compendium, though. I would've preferred an article every couple of months with two factions, like a mini-campaign in between the quarterly supplement boxes. No new models, but an alternative kill team for each and some short lore about some conflict between them or something.

But I don't see how these WD articles are "desotroying" the game.
   
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London

I would have thought more option through White Dwarf were a good thing? Or is your view being ‘forced’ to buy the magazine an unbearable expense?
   
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Austria

Buying the compendium because "this is what you need" and now having "your factions rules are in White Dwarf, which is late in some countries and not available at all in others" out of the blue can be annoying for some

If it would have been clear from the start that Teams are added via WD over time it would have been better

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 Tawnis wrote:
 tauist wrote:
 Gregor Samsa wrote:
Games Workshop is destroying Kill Team by releasing rules for factions in White Dwarf. Another classic move by GW to flush a what would otherwise be a vibrant and longlasting game community down the drain.


I'm 100% sure GW will release a new "Annual" style book with all the WD teams inside. You'll obvsly have to wait at least 6 months to a year to get it, but I'm sure it's coming.

As much as it sucks, this tactic is making me want to buy WD mags again after decades of disinterest, so it's working for them. From GW's POV, KT factions are a great fit as magazine articles, they add significant value to the game but only take a reasonable page count from a single issue.



Yeah, totally agree that it's working. This is the first time I've strongly considered getting a White Dwarf and I don't even play AdMech.


New Thousand Sons team coming in next month's WD as well.. And who knows if there'll be a new team in November's issue as well?

If anyone was getting into KT21 now, it might be a good idea to wait for a WD with the team you want to play and just get the Core Rules and that single issue of WD, instead of buying the Compendium. The WD teams will have faction Tacs Ops and more operatives & equipment choice than the Compendium teams, so more flavour for going Narrative Spec Ops with.

A sensible KT fanboy like me should just wait patiently for the eventual Annual compilation book tho.. there's also that BS app which will probably get updated with the new stats

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/09/30 07:16:55


 
   
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 Gregor Samsa wrote:
Games Workshop is destroying Kill Team by releasing rules for factions in White Dwarf. Another classic move by GW to flush a what would otherwise be a vibrant and longlasting game community down the drain.


Is releasing regular additional material not classed as ongoing support?
I rather like it.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 tauist wrote:
 Tawnis wrote:
 tauist wrote:
 Gregor Samsa wrote:
Games Workshop is destroying Kill Team by releasing rules for factions in White Dwarf. Another classic move by GW to flush a what would otherwise be a vibrant and longlasting game community down the drain.


I'm 100% sure GW will release a new "Annual" style book with all the WD teams inside. You'll obvsly have to wait at least 6 months to a year to get it, but I'm sure it's coming.

As much as it sucks, this tactic is making me want to buy WD mags again after decades of disinterest, so it's working for them. From GW's POV, KT factions are a great fit as magazine articles, they add significant value to the game but only take a reasonable page count from a single issue.



Yeah, totally agree that it's working. This is the first time I've strongly considered getting a White Dwarf and I don't even play AdMech.


New Thousand Sons team coming in next month's WD as well.. And who knows if there'll be a new team in November's issue as well?

If anyone was getting into KT21 now, it might be a good idea to wait for a WD with the team you want to play and just get the Core Rules and that single issue of WD, instead of buying the Compendium. The WD teams will have faction Tacs Ops and more operatives & equipment choice than the Compendium teams, so more flavour for going Narrative Spec Ops with.

A sensible KT fanboy like me should just wait patiently for the eventual Annual compilation book tho.. there's also that BS app which will probably get updated with the new stats



I have also bought my first White Dwarf for at least 20 years. The articles on KT factions are quite inspiring. I think the strategy of a set of core teams in the compendium plus regular releases of specific teams in WD is a great idea. I hope it continues and doesn't fade out though. There are some quite obvious characters missing from the compendium that would suit WD articles, Ogryns and Bulgryns spring straight to mind as a Guard player.
I'm not overly keen on the big dual team boxsets as I have a lot of teams already and I may only be interested in one. I'll have to see what in the T'Au box. If it's a nice scenario book and some decent terrain then it might prove attractive, despite me having a nice T'Au kill team already.
I have neen using the Battlescribe app, which seems to be up to date. It meshes very well with the Datacard.app to produce some lovely cards.

Thanks for reading
IAK

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/13 09:41:11


 
   
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So I have done a bunch of games of the new kill team, also with the new kill team chalnath rules (which don't really add much in terms of general rules to be honest).....and I still hate it.

Even with the recent nerf to talons it still feels shallow and uninteresting. I especially dislike the new combat system because in every single game I've played it went like this:
-dedicated melee unit charges and does one hit (often a crit)
-the enemy unit has no strategic options because even if it blocks one dice in 90% of cases the next hit would kill anyway. So enemy unit gets one hit in and then dies....rimse and repeat.

It's just so dumb. I'll stick to the old kill team and probably houserule it a bit to feature alternating activations in the move phase.
   
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London

Tiberias wrote:
So I have done a bunch of games of the new kill team, also with the new kill team chalnath rules (which don't really add much in terms of general rules to be honest).....and I still hate it.

Even with the recent nerf to talons it still feels shallow and uninteresting. I especially dislike the new combat system because in every single game I've played it went like this:
-dedicated melee unit charges and does one hit (often a crit)
-the enemy unit has no strategic options because even if it blocks one dice in 90% of cases the next hit would kill anyway. So enemy unit gets one hit in and then dies....rimse and repeat.

It's just so dumb. I'll stick to the old kill team and probably houserule it a bit to feature alternating activations in the move phase.



The new melee system is a bit naff.

It feels like they had opposed dice rolls as the system suggests that (every other game with roll dice pools and compare has variations of match dice to dice), but then couldn't balance it well (in a lot of situations the charger would simply die - or you go for only the attacks can cause damage, in which case CC slows down a lot) and went to the current model of take turns using a dice (so the person charging could always do some damage, and those about to die can at least chip away a bit). It is clearly an attempt to be dramatic, but outside of a narrow range of match ups (like guardsmen slugging it out) it doesn't work as you say. Perhaps if the pools were secret? But that just isn't going to work with GWs player base.

The players who like it have the attitude that you can kill what you charge as a specialist and take some damage doing so, just with a bunch of faff.

The one thing I like in the melee system is the ability to engage without having to fight. essentially wrestling your opponent and physically tieing them up to slow them down no mater how hopeless is quite cinematic.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/11/19 16:03:00


 
   
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Thanks to the new kill team I now know that armor is of no use in melee combat.

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Having now played several more games, I love the new melee system. It's a huge risk with a huge potential for reward.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Thanks to the new kill team I now know that armor is of no use in melee combat.

That part made me uncomfortable at first, until I realised that most of the time an operative's WS is just as good - if not better - than its save anyway. A successful parry could easily represent the operative utilising their armour to block or divert an attack.

You still have the question of the active operative's first attack being able to go through without response, but I don't mind that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/19 00:13:05


 
   
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 Cheex wrote:
Having now played several more games, I love the new melee system. It's a huge risk with a huge potential for reward.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Thanks to the new kill team I now know that armor is of no use in melee combat.

That part made me uncomfortable at first, until I realised that most of the time an operative's WS is just as good - if not better - than its save anyway. A successful parry could easily represent the operative utilising their armour to block or divert an attack.

You still have the question of the active operative's first attack being able to go through without response, but I don't mind that.


Only that parrying is is useless in most cases. In a game like 40k you need differentiation between units, otherwise it does not matter what faction and what units you play. And the new kill team heavily goes into that direction...it more feels like a non tactical version of chess: I remove a piece, you remove a piece, I remove a piece...

I'm glad you can enjoy it, honestly. I wish I could, but I just can't bring myself to like the base rules.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut






It's not useless, though. I've had multiple encounters where occasional parries have made the difference between life and death. While most fights tend to be over before all dice are used, that's because they're started by people who are specialised towards being brutal in melee.

This is fine, considering the level of granularity in the rest of the rules chassis.

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Every roll in the current combat sequence has a tactical and a strategic implication. I have played games of KT18 where I have been charged by the entire oppostion team and had every figure in melee removed before I could respond. How you plant your strikes and how you use your parry becomes a dance of death, a real combat rather than a static linear chain of rolls to attack and wound and save and injury, etc...
Let's face it, you charge when you feel you have the advantage and are going to win, or you charge when you are just about going ot hang on and tie up the enemy by being slumped in their engagement area, pinning them for their first AP, maybe saving an objevtive and a VP with a glorious sacrifice.
In the end, if you don't like the sytem, and Tiberius you keep telling us you hate it, then you are never going to like it. Best to either play something else or find another player who also likes the old stuff and get together.
One of the things that really reinforces to me that this set is a better game that involves the player more is that I very rarely see anyone not wanting to have the initiative - in KT18 it was something you really didn't want, it was a reactive game. Wait and then react. In KT21 the initiative is key, players are itching to enact the plan they have, the tactics are key and they are ready every go. The whole old style wait for everyone else to move then you get to react, then wait for shooting, then react, is gone. Every round is a twisting, turnng maelstrom of tactical decisions and strategic plans.
I do see players unhappy with the new version, and it seems to be when they are focussed on shooting everyone with massive guns or maxing out their plasma. If you focus on the mission, the VP and the TO opportunities it really has become an interesting game to play out. I never thought I'd say that of a GW game, but I have.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/11/23 13:18:42


 
   
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Just bought orktarius.great, great buy.

Rules look really interesting however they could have been written a bit clearer. I'm confused as hell about engaged/conceal and would have much preferred cover to be a defense/save mod rather than one auto-save ' as it is, 2 shooting actions seems likely to me to kill a hell of a lot of things in thr game. Surely cover should be stronger?

Regardless, I want this to be my skirmish game of choice. Love infinity models, hate its on plenty. Loved warcry. Here's hoping this is the perfect middle ground.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/22 15:24:16


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The rules do need a re-write by someone familiar with how English is commonly used and the flow of rules referencing in the game...
   
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The only aspect of the rules I'm having probs with are the APL bonuses and the exact moments when they apply to your operative's APL value. Maybe the rules are easier to understand for us non-native English speakers, dunno..

OTOH I admit reading every rules Q&A I happen to run into on r/KillTeam - that kinda helps

Finally got myself a copy of the Hunter Clade rules, contemplating on building a team ATM but they have some hard choices! Is it better to go with the radiation skitarii or the non-rad ones? I love sicarians (the models are brill!) but their princeps is hard to pick over the skitarii ones as the pseudo 2GA ability of the skitarii alphas has deep synergy potential..

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/11/22 18:08:57


 
   
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Tiberias wrote:
Only that parrying is is useless in most cases. In a game like 40k you need differentiation between units, otherwise it does not matter what faction and what units you play. And the new kill team heavily goes into that direction...it more feels like a non tactical version of chess: I remove a piece, you remove a piece, I remove a piece...

I'm glad you can enjoy it, honestly. I wish I could, but I just can't bring myself to like the base rules.

It's honestly a shame that you aren't enjoying KT21. I guess it comes down to our individual priorities - I see parrying as absolutely essential at times (I've saved many an operative from certain death with a well-timed parry), I think the faction differentiation is fine (you don't need layers upon layers of rules to differentiate factions), and I don't think there's a problem with trading casualties (which can be avoided if you plan ahead for future enemy activations).

KT21 has addressed every problem I had with KT18 and has easily reinvigorated the game for me.
   
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If anything, I feel like many factions in KT21 actually play more faithful to the lore than in 40K. So we'll just have to agree to disagree on the whole "it does not matter which faction you play".
   
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 tauist wrote:
If anything, I feel like many factions in KT21 actually play more faithful to the lore than in 40K. So we'll just have to agree to disagree on the whole "it does not matter which faction you play".


Same. The difference between two and three APL troops is stark, likewise with things that have superhuman levels of Wounds. While everyone has analogous specialists that are reliably able to remove models in various ways (shoots well, fights well, sneaks well...), the faction identities do come through very well in my experience. Some factions with squishier troopers have to plan their approach in advance lest they get locally destroyed by a superior thrust while the more elite forces that can improvise on the spot need to choose their fights to have enough time to stay on top.

Restricted Ploys also feel pretty fitting as they are, providing a simple nudge towards iconic strategies for the factions. Now if only GW can hold their horses and keep every team's pool of Ploys at the level they are instead of splurging 250+ bonus cards for everyone, that would be great...

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