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mechanical things are a lot easier to break down than organic things by a lot

 Aenar wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Depending on the nature of the supports, cleanup for a 3D print can be more difficult than for a regular cast model. Because with a cast model the clean up is all on the mould line - even the gates are typically along that same line around each part. Therefore you can logically work your way around each bit pretty easily.

With 3D printing you don't get that, instead you get little sticks and pock marks all over the place - almost at random. This can make it more challenging and if its a generally supported model it might have a LOT of marks. Meanwhile you can spend time supporting the model yourself with a well tuned printer and settings and get a lot of them reduced, but its a different set of skills and interaction and still takes a long while.


Another aspect is painting practicality. A lot of 3D print designers come from a video game or similar media background, not a model background. And because of how 3D printing works you don't have to part every model, in far by and large many models are not parted. This means everything is 1 part.

That can mean a LOT of very hard to impossible to reach areas on the model when it comes to painting. Even if the model looks super fantastic it can be a very big challenge to paint.

It can also mean models designed without printing in mind. This can mean having really difficult fine (eg spikes or teeth) structures that are all over the place and on a model with zero or limited parting. Suddenly it becomes a very big challenge to actually support the model because you're supporting a lot of very fine detail islands which all then have to link up and also then come off the supports. Sometimes even if it prints fine you can lose really tiny details (eg teeth) because getting them off supports is tricky when the support is as thick as the tooth.

Also, interestingly, there's a LOT of mono-pose. Despite it being something people rage at GW about, 3D printing is broadly the same. Yes sometimes you can mirror a model to get extra poses, but in general there's far more monopose than multipose parted models around.


Granted some of those things can change in time. In theory designers will improve and learn and those that don't will steadily get overtaken by those who do.

It depends on the sculpts. Some are multi part kits that blow GW ones away and most of them come pre-supported. It's literally plug-and-print at this point.
Example:

Spoiler:

And if you don't like that, you can always assemble the parts digitally (Autodesk Meshmixer is free an incredibly easy to use) and print the whole thing together.

As much as those look amazing I can't help but feel they're under the "GW gonna get me" category of too close to their ip.

Dudeface wrote:

As much as those look amazing I can't help but feel they're under the "GW gonna get me" category of too close to their ip.

I feel like it is only a matter of time before someone challenges GW on their interpretation of intellectual property with 3D sculpts, as we previously saw happen with the bits market.

 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

As much as those look amazing I can't help but feel they're under the "GW gonna get me" category of too close to their ip.

I feel like it is only a matter of time before someone challenges GW on their interpretation of intellectual property with 3D sculpts, as we previously saw happen with the bits market.

And then spend the rest of their life under a bridge

Cronch wrote:
That still means paying for the files, the printing, and potentially shipping. And hoping the place prints the files correctly. Basically at that point, what's the convenience of it vs buying a kit?

Right, but it's mostly for the 'exception' who won't be able to afford/place a 3D printer. Plus the cost is still likely to be cheaper than buying a kit as they come now.

Dudeface wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

You haven’t seen them? Where have you been looking?

People absolutely buy these proxy miniatures. WGA ran out of stock for their Grognards because so many people bought whole armies. When they release plastic Valkir, I’d be surprised if they didn’t sell in huge quantities.

In the flesh, in 40k subreddits, on this site. There are few to none full 3rd party 40k armies. You're right that the wga infantry is cheaper and a reasonable proxy. But it's just infantry, that isn't an army. People will still need to go elsewhere for proxy tanks or fall back onto 40k vehicles.

Not saying there aren't options out there, just that unlike 3d printing, I can't buy a cohesive army from a 3rd party at the moment and as such they seem to pretty rare beyond splash in parts/models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kodos wrote:
I have seen more full 3rd Party Imperial Guard armies than I have seen original ones

I fact I haven't seen a full GW Guard army in the last 10 years

and yes you can buy those of the shelf, Guard, Marines, SoB, Chaos, Custodes is not a problem to get the full set you need

not talking about 1:1 copies from Russia or China, have seen those as well, but full 3rd party "count as" models in plastic (Resin or HIPS)
in some places you see more of those than original ones, and hardly 1 army that is build with mostly GW models

for the gaming part of the community, the GW models are hardly a driving point
for the modeling/painting/collecting part of the community it is different
but there were "wargaming" is the main part of the hobby, GW models are not important

Can you link me to the off the shelf custodes, sisters and chaos please?

Technically it wasn't just troops with the Grognards from WGA. They also released a combination Heavy Weapons and Command box. That's enough to make a full army with just no vehicles, which is easy to do with Guard.

Assuming 3d printers are as convenient as normal printers, I can see that happening. Though I also feel it will actually kill all but hobbyist-in-shed gaming companies because one STL file pack is in no way equal to constant sales of new models.

Cronch wrote:
Assuming 3d printers are as convenient as normal printers, I can see that happening. Though I also feel it will actually kill all but hobbyist-in-shed gaming companies because one STL file pack is in no way equal to constant sales of new models.

Unless you create a subscription fee.

 BlackoCatto wrote:

Cronch wrote:
Assuming 3d printers are as convenient as normal printers, I can see that happening. Though I also feel it will actually kill all but hobbyist-in-shed gaming companies because one STL file pack is in no way equal to constant sales of new models.

Unless you create a subscription fee.

That would end up GW's most predatory pricing scheme yet. They'd likely have to "rent" you the files at a hefty cost for an army so you don't sign up for 1 month and spam print 7 armies then never subscribe again.

I could see "access to kataphron destroyers 48 hrs £6" or something from a hosted platform so they can cut access after the timer, so the buyer can only print a reasonable volume in the time they have the file.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

As much as those look amazing I can't help but feel they're under the "GW gonna get me" category of too close to their ip.

I feel like it is only a matter of time before someone challenges GW on their interpretation of intellectual property with 3D sculpts, as we previously saw happen with the bits market.

And then spend the rest of their life under a bridge

A rough back of the envelope calculation shows that one of the largest goups of not-40K scupltors (The Makers Cult) rakes in $32k per month just from Patreon subscriptions. Add all the individual sales for older STL files (not those being given to patrons of the current month) and you can imagine them having the financial means to fight any lawsuit in court.
These are not small enterprises, at least not anymore.
And the Chapterhouse debacle showed GW how (not) far they can reach with regards to IP protection. 1:1 copies are one thing, similar mecha/tank/monster models are a different one.
All these scupltors are well aware of GW IP and tread carefully by 1) not copying anything and 2) avoiding any symbols or icons or words part of GW IP.

The moment you are dealing with files downloads then someone will find ways to distribute them for free.

Like I said I dont see this shift from Companies investing in producing and distributing to you a quality controlled object (mini) to something exclusivly virtual done by god knows who, any good. But hey good luck.

As long as I can support what we have now I will, including buying GW minis.
Just a few years ago you had a good amount of companies posting their actually produced things and a good number of sculptors... Kick-starts came and made hostage many projects and took down some companies with it, the renders started to invade the market never to see the light of day... and so on.

Today you have unregulated 3d files for sale with little to no guarantee it was done in a way it could be printed in the first place, the traditional sculptors and the companies that shared and produced things are a shadow of what they were and called old hammer? And this when printers are still a pain to set up at home...

Its a sign of times to come? Great. Please do fill your libraries with plenty files if thats what floats your boat.
Just imagine what this will do to the medium ones like , PP, Corvus, FOW, etc because the small ones just will have the hardest hit and probably do something else.

Sorry if I sound like ranting though. But your cheap and convenient STL file may well be the final nail to many products you currently enjoy. No wonder GW is lawering up.

There's already a "$30 join my telegram for thousands of STLs" guy who does the rounds on the Facebook groups - even so bold as to join groups for 3D creators and advertise it right in their face.




I do wonder what will happen in the future regarding gaming and 3D STL provision. My gut feeling is that right now we are in a boom period. Where fewer creators and a big influx of new users steadily over time means that there's healthy demand and healthy competition for all without huge investments in marketing.
However at some stage I figure that will start to ease up; both as the market expands to a point of limit (which is bound directly to technology and price of buying into it); and as people within the market start to hit a practical limit of owning enough STLs. When they don't need to buy everything every month and when their social interaction and joy of supporting artists just to create has worn thin.


Basically a point at which people say "so what the heck do I actually DO with this stuff". At that point I think GW will continue to win because they've got stores, they've got representatives; they've got loads of gamers; they've got school programs etc....

Other companies will have to really up their marketing game and local influences to help generate interest.

Now what we might also see is that with the market growing, we might well see a future where wargaming is more common than it is now - where there's interest in it outside of totally geeky group. This is something that, right now, only GW is really investing heavily in. And with good reason because almost the entire rest of the market (barring DnD gamers) is leaching right off GW's market. At least for Fantasy and sci fi (Historical seems to just sort of "grow" fans as they hit their 50-70s! ).


Local social reps and programs will become the battlefield of the future. Internet marketing, cheap prices, quality - all those things are becoming more and more commonplace.



I do also worry that there's a bit of a "Race to the bottom" With STLs at present. If you want PAtreons and backers the best way is to be cheap. Some are working themselves nuts (and quality does suffer as a result) to have as much as they can to offer the best model to $ ratio. And yeah that works for a time, but the burn-out on a creator is harsh. Plus its feeding this whole idea that the onyl reason to do 3D printing is to get cheap models. That's allowing and encouraging growth right now ,but its, in my view, a VERY unhealthy position to grow the market on.

Race to the bottom is a big risk because it means an early impression of value of an STL is very very low. That means its harder and harder to sell competitive pricing in the future





The other big hammer that has yet to fall, is copyright. Sure GW are hot on it now; but there are a lot of other franchise being infringed upon. Video games, Films, books, artwork. I can foresee that at some point some big players are going to wake up and notice 3D printing and then its going to hit some hard. GW might be playing ball right now ,but this is 100% their market to start with. The likes of video game or movie companies won't have any reason to pull punches; and some of them employ legal teams that are experienced, professional and fully on retainer.

If anything GW could perhaps appear to be one of the more benevolent parties. Far as I know takedowns are as far as they ever go today. They've never requested loss of earnings or profits generated without sale or back-dated licence fees or such.

Cronch wrote:
That still means paying for the files, the printing, and potentially shipping. And hoping the place prints the files correctly. Basically at that point, what's the convenience of it vs buying a kit?

When I was building my BFG fleet and couldn’t be bothered with my printer, I found that purchasing printed ships was pretty simple, with most sellers having already downloaded a range of files for the consumer to choose from. Bad prints were quickly replaced if they weren’t spotted before shipping. All for a fraction of the cost an eventual official retail release would cost. It was quick, easy and cheap.

I imagine this would work for any specific game group: the guy with the printer farm buys a bunch of files and factors them into the pricing, making the shopping experience as conventional as possible for the consumer.

I'll be honest, I don't know a single person IRL that has a 3D printer, so I couldn't tell you. They're still incredibly niche thing as far as (seemingly) general public is concerned.

Whereas I know or know of at least three other people aside from myself who have both resin and filament printers ostensibly mainly for tabletop gaming in one of the least populated corners of the UK with a pretty small gaming community.

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Whereas I know or know of at least three other people aside from myself who have both resin and filament printers ostensibly mainly for tabletop gaming in one of the least populated corners of the UK with a pretty small gaming community.

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.

Even with my limited social awareness I reckon we can bump that to at least 5, 6 if you include the not quite local store

 Azreal13 wrote:

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.

Never claimed otherwise.

Ok, so in that case, and I'm genuinely asking, what was your point?

Yeah, it will very much depend on where you are: myself, I'm on the capital county, and I literally know dozens of people with printers, but I'm sure that will be different in other parts of the country.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Ok, so in that case, and I'm genuinely asking, what was your point?

That I think there is a general misconception that every other person has one and is willing to print you 50 armies with a smile, when in reality not everyone has direct access to a friendly printerer.

That's a just a truism though. There's people who don't have access to a game store. There's people who don't have internet access, or an address they can have stuff reliably shipped to, or a means of electronic payment.

Different people have all sorts of different barriers to conducting commerce all over the world, people and corporations don't just stop what would otherwise be a profitable enterprise just because Dave down the road isn't able to participate.

The reality is that most people in a position to wargame, especially with GW models and titles, will have both the space and income to buy a 3D printer once they themselves see the value in it, whether that's for alt sculpts, OOP proxies, bits and modifications or whatever, and that number of people seems to be expanding rapidly.

The reality is that most people in a position to wargame, especially with GW models and titles, will have both the space and income to buy a 3D printer

You are coming at it from a very privileged position, that's all I'm going to say.

 Azreal13 wrote:
That's a just a truism though. There's people who don't have access to a game store. There's people who don't have internet access, or an address they can have stuff reliably shipped to, or a means of electronic payment.

Different people have all sorts of different barriers to conducting commerce all over the world, people and corporations don't just stop what would otherwise be a profitable enterprise just because Dave down the road isn't able to participate.

The reality is that most people in a position to wargame, especially with GW models and titles, will have both the space and income to buy a 3D printer once they themselves see the value in it, whether that's for alt sculpts, OOP proxies, bits and modifications or whatever, and that number of people seems to be expanding rapidly.

I don't think the commercial viability of investing in the platform was being questioned, simply that its not as accessible as is often portrayed.

I still don't think they're going to be owned by the majority for a long time, however they are becoming more common for sure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cronch wrote:

The reality is that most people in a position to wargame, especially with GW models and titles, will have both the space and income to buy a 3D printer

You are coming at it from a very privileged position, that's all I'm going to say.

I understand, I have gw models, I have gaming mats, terrain etc I can store away, but what I don't have is a space to leave a printer set up. Even if I had the inclination to learn how to use one my other half doesn't like anything being left on overnight if it's a big print etc. I have a toddler who would probably attack it and possibly do himself harm via the resin etc. So simply not worth it for me.

One big problem that I have with 3D printers is that, like many people in my age group around here, I don't have the space to set up a resin printer with the right ventilation and everything. And in an apartment, that's just not so easy to set up. And, of course, quite some people like assembling models and the like, and with printed stuff that's a fair bit harder.

Cronch wrote:

The reality is that most people in a position to wargame, especially with GW models and titles, will have both the space and income to buy a 3D printer

You are coming at it from a very privileged position, that's all I'm going to say.

I'm acknowledging that most wargamers are, relatively speaking, in a privileged position, and that market forces being what they are, they'll follow that trend.

Cronch wrote:

The reality is that most people in a position to wargame, especially with GW models and titles, will have both the space and income to buy a 3D printer

You are coming at it from a very privileged position, that's all I'm going to say.

If you have the money to buy any two GW kits or any of the big ones, you have the money to buy a printer. In two months if you want a specially fancy one.

Other considerations are, of course, other considerations.

I had a 3D printer and sold it on as I hated using it and didn’t like the minis that came out of it, finding them awful to paint. Even if I pick up 3D prints on eBay it will only really be if the alternatives are too expensive, for example I snagged some tomb kings chariots that were ok (replaced the crew with WGA skellies though).

I had the money and space to get into 3D printing, and tried it out, but am glad I got out of it. I don’t think 3D printing is a done deal as much as folks make out, many people aren’t interested in it and will always prefer to pick up plastic kits.

One thing my dabble with printing did give me was an appreciation of building the kits and kit bashing again, which was always my least favourite part of the process. Washing a resin model and having the spindly weapon snap off for the umpteenth time made me miss the clippers and glue!

If you live in Australia, a decent quality 3D printer costs as much as 5-6 Primaris Lieutenants or one-and-a-half of a Repulsor Executioner, or a single Space Marine Combat Patrol.

 Azreal13 wrote:

Cronch wrote:

The reality is that most people in a position to wargame, especially with GW models and titles, will have both the space and income to buy a 3D printer

You are coming at it from a very privileged position, that's all I'm going to say.

I'm acknowledging that most wargamers are, relatively speaking, in a privileged position, and that market forces being what they are, they'll follow that trend.

Again, that may be your perception. I rather imagine that like in video gaming, you have a small group of wealthy people who buy a lot, and a lot of younger or less serious people who just buy a few kits or one army and that's it. The whales generate the most wealth to companies, but without the minnows, they'd have much smaller choice of players. What you describe is someone with a house to store all those models, terrain, and still have space to set up the 3d printer, cause you can't really just plop it in a 2-room apartment without making it inconvenient. So essentially you're looking at older, richer audience that already has no problem affording GW kits in any quantity they want.

Luke82 wrote:
I had a 3D printer and sold it on as I hated using it and didn’t like the minis that came out of it, finding them awful to paint.

Washing a resin model and having the spindly weapon snap off for the umpteenth time made me miss the clippers and glue!

Ah, so they're like better quality, more readily avalible Forgeworld/Failcast models you can get for a fraction of the price? Terrible, I don't see how anyone could bother with them.

(/s)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cronch wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

Cronch wrote:

The reality is that most people in a position to wargame, especially with GW models and titles, will have both the space and income to buy a 3D printer

You are coming at it from a very privileged position, that's all I'm going to say.

I'm acknowledging that most wargamers are, relatively speaking, in a privileged position, and that market forces being what they are, they'll follow that trend.

Again, that may be your perception. I rather imagine that like in video gaming, you have a small group of wealthy people who buy a lot, and a lot of younger or less serious people who just buy a few kits or one army and that's it.

...a 3D printer is several magnitudes cheaper than any 40k army.