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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

 Insectum7 wrote:
 Galas wrote:
Oh no, they weren't shredded by lasguns.

They didn't needed to be because my opponent used his cheaps as chips infantry to block me from reaching his parking lot of 3 manticores and 3 basilisks.

And I have to say, not a single time I eard my opponent say "man are my lasguns useless" while I was removing squad after squad of marines under artillery fire.

Maybe I came a little too energetic. But is a little tiresome to take this absurd comparisons ignoring everything else that make factions work as a whole.
Righto. Ok, so THAT particular scenario is an 8th edition problem. But the problem there isn't that Marines weren't tough. The problem there is that Marines couldn't kill Guardsmen fast enough, like they used to be able to do pre 8th, using template weapons, Drop Pods, and Morale. Additionally, the Guardsmen could just Fall Back out of CC, so you couldn't "hide in CC" the way you could prior to 8th. Also, due to the AP change, Guardsmen were now 30% tougher against Bolter Fire.

Aka, the solution is NOT 2w Marines.

Note that 2W Marines will also not help you against the Manticores, Basilisks, or the Heavy Bolters that they have as secondary weapons. Nor the Veteran Drop Plasma that was always mysteriously on call in that scenario.


Oh. I've blocked & shelled many an opponent 2e-6e.
And I witnessed a 9e example of this just last Sat. The other player couldn't get close enough/LoS to the manticores. They were blasted off the table with stragglers/stray wounds being picked off by plasmagun/lasgun fire. It was a pretty solid Guard victory.
So I don't think this non-problem began & ended with 8th ed.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






ccs wrote:

Oh. I've blocked & shelled many an opponent 2e-6e.
And I witnessed a 9e example of this just last Sat. The other player couldn't get close enough/LoS to the manticores. They were blasted off the table with stragglers/stray wounds being picked off by plasmagun/lasgun fire. It was a pretty solid Guard victory.
So I don't think this non-problem began & ended with 8th ed.
Don't get me wrong, the IG artillery castle should totally be a viable strategy. But 8th edition took away some very potent tools that Marines had in prior editions. For example, I think in 6th edition I had one Assault Squad kill about 30 Guardsmen in a turn through Flamthrowers and Assault and subsequent Morale. I remember dropping Drop Pods with a Command Squad and five Flamers right next to another IG castle, and hilarity ensued. Additionaly, pre-8th you could shoot and stun multiple artillery tanks in order to suppress them, and pre-7th every Marine in a squad could plant Krak grenades on them in CC to knock them out. For 8th, a lot of those tools vanished.

By 8.5 Marines were given a little more offensive power through Doctrines and their +1 attack in the first round of combat. For 9th Flamers gained more range, and Blast weapons have increased in efficacy against larger squads. Early 8th happened to be a particularly rough time for that matchup.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 waefre_1 wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
 waefre_1 wrote:
Question: If the lasgun-armed members of an Infantry Squad should be mowed down with abandon and do nothing but scratch paint in return, why not just have the Infantry Squad be a 10W special weapon gunner with a special rule stating that all multidamage weapons count as D1 against it? Why even bother having glorified wound counters that just waste time moving separately and complicate LoS determination?


How about you tell me.

Lets replace a guard squad with exactly what you say here - a 10W special weapon gunner who costs 60pts who can only take 1 damage at a time.

How does this make a guard squad less effective in the game?

What cant you do with this guy that you could do with a regular guard squad?

Very little, as far as I can tell. Unless my math is off, one mini is significantly easier to hide than ten and since the special weapon was the only one we cared about, it shouldn't matter that we're not getting extra spotting off with other Guardsmen. And since we're already condensing the squad down into a single mini, it would only be fair to count the number of remaining Wounds as its number of models for ObSec tests.

Now, your turn: If the only real benefit to having nine warm bodies is completely negated by a simple, logical special rule tacked on to the hypothetical Special Weapon Guardsquad, why should we bother having the extra bodies?


Probably because your 'simple logical' special rules do not exist.

if youre proposing to change the way scoring and movement works in the game to: You can ignore enemy models completely when you move, you are allowed to end your movement on top of any enemy models you want" and change scoring to "you count as the number of wounds remaining on your model" as well as changing damage to "multi-damage weapons remove multiple models" ala age of sigmar, then it makes way more sense for a 1-model, 10 wound unit to basically have identical combat stats and defensive stats to a 10-model, 1w unit.

UNTIL THEN, though, the trade-off for having your wounds kept in 1W (damage-capped) multi-body containers SHOULD be reduced combat effectiveness in terms of both offense and defense.

Note that this isnt actually all that far-fetched. Age of Sigmar does this. Large models DO count as multiple models for scoring, and multi-damage weapons DO remove multiple casualties from large units. And in age of sigmar, light infntry is allowed to wound big giant monsters just as good as they can damage other light infantry.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight






JNAProductions wrote:
 kurhanik wrote:
 waefre_1 wrote:
Question: If the lasgun-armed members of an Infatrny Squad should be mowed down with abandon and do nothing but scratch paint in return, why not just have the Infantry Squad be a 10W special weapon gunner with a special rule stating that all multidamage weapons count as D1 against it? Why even bother having glorified wound counters that just waste time moving separately and complicate LoS determination?


I'm kind of fine with lasguns in and of themselves being bad, though they just keep getting worse as creep sets in. What is annoying is the buckets of dice being rolled for almost no damage. I mostly just fear that GW's response in the Guard Codex is going to be MORE DICE!!! And suddenly we'll see lasguns throwing out more and more shots for diminishing returns. Rolling dice for the sake of rolling dice, or for the purpose of "I might hurt something, so I have to roll it gets tiring.

Same goes for other chaff infantry really. A full unit of 30 Termagants throws out 90 shots and averages 2.5 dead marines based on a mathhammer ap. I keep hearing they got buffed lately though not quite sure how, I'm not fully caught up on the meta as I used to be.

I kind of just hope that we end up with a situation where these traditionally chaff units can function decently - whether its giving them the ability to dig in, slightly better damage output (though not too much), or even simply the ability to effectively respawn, as reinforcements from the back lines trudge forwards.

SIdenote, I'm kind of curious on what 9th will bring with Scions. Hot-shot lasguns have been pretty decent vs Marines since 5th edition (they were still S3, but got AP3 then) - I'm kind of curious if they'll give them an extra pip of strength, or change them to D2 to make Scions the anti-Marine infantry of Guard.
The issue with S3 AP-2 D2 Hellguns is... Well, let me put it this way.

580 points of 43rd Iotan Dragons kills one Questoris Knight out of Deep Strike, assuming a 4+ Invuln.
If the Knight isn't able to Rotate Ion Shields or otherwise only has a 5++, you can do it with just shy of 500.

If Laurels of Command stacks with the new Orders mechanic, that number drops to 400 points. 310 if the Knight only has a 5++.

Those same 310 points of Scions kills, with two orders, kills 18-19 MEQ out of Deep Strike. 14 if they're in Cover.


I...legit forgot that they released a subfaction of stormtroopers that straight up ignores their main downside - being unable to unload full firepower on the drop. Just curious, what is the second order you factored in? I am guessing 310 points = 3 10 man squads and a Tempestor Prime with Command Rod? The points would be 5 more but that is basically a margin of error super tiny to be pointless. Plugging into a mathhammer thing I see 16 dead Marines there. Half that if you take a regiment type that doesn't just ignore the downside of the unit.

Still too big of a points return mind, though if they got a point bump in exchange. Or keep the points roughly the same and just make them pay for Deep Strike as an upgrade so that footslogging / mechanized is actually an option instead of being kind of pointless.

The S4 one seems a bit more reasonable however, that same 310 points goes down to 6 dead Marines (12 if you take the subfaction dedicated to ignoring drawbacks).

Still, this seems to be veering a bit off topic.

Insectum7 wrote:
ccs wrote:

Oh. I've blocked & shelled many an opponent 2e-6e.
And I witnessed a 9e example of this just last Sat. The other player couldn't get close enough/LoS to the manticores. They were blasted off the table with stragglers/stray wounds being picked off by plasmagun/lasgun fire. It was a pretty solid Guard victory.
So I don't think this non-problem began & ended with 8th ed.
Don't get me wrong, the IG artillery castle should totally be a viable strategy. But 8th edition took away some very potent tools that Marines had in prior editions. For example, I think in 6th edition I had one Assault Squad kill about 30 Guardsmen in a turn through Flamthrowers and Assault and subsequent Morale. I remember dropping Drop Pods with a Command Squad and five Flamers right next to another IG castle, and hilarity ensued. Additionaly, pre-8th you could shoot and stun multiple artillery tanks in order to suppress them, and pre-7th every Marine in a squad could plant Krak grenades on them in CC to knock them out. For 8th, a lot of those tools vanished.

By 8.5 Marines were given a little more offensive power through Doctrines and their +1 attack in the first round of combat. For 9th Flamers gained more range, and Blast weapons have increased in efficacy against larger squads. Early 8th happened to be a particularly rough time for that matchup.


Guard were strong compared to early 8th Marines largely due to their low cost (they could easily have gone up 1 point and still been good), and a 5+ (and 6+) save actually meaning something for the first time I can remember. In previous editions marines could just straight up ignore the armor of Guardsmen, Gaunts, Orks, etc and it no longer was the case, but the points didn't fully line up with that new reality. If memory serves, Guardsmen actually got cheaper jumping from 7th to 8th.

Since then Marines got Bolter Discipline to make their bolters a bit more reliable, Shock Assault giving them an extra attack on the charge, Combat Doctrines which made the AP on bolters and melee attacks stronger depending on the turn, and a 2nd wound on all non-Primaris. Guardsmen meanwhile got 15 points more expensive per squad and little else (I do think some of their special weapons got slightly cheaper too?).

Funny thing is I actually kind of like the idea of 2 wound Marines, but it feels like GW swung the pendulum too far compared to early 8th, where they had it too far in the opposite direction.
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

No, no Rod needed. The Orders change now affects all Infantry within 6” of the first target.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
 
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