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Made in mo
Fresh-Faced New User




I just finished playing my first game of Kings of War and I had a blast! That said, it is a weird game that defies many modern wargame design trends...

1. No Off-turn Player Interaction -- in a world where "making sure players are always engaged" is a high priority (see AoS 3.0), Kings of War is the exact opposite. It sounds bad on paper, but actually works due to how streamlined the rules are and how fast it plays. Even the morale tests are always done by the active player.

2. Attacker-Only Melee Combat -- I was especially skeptical about this, but it has basically abstracted the "charger advantage" in other games into its "attacker-only combat" mechanic. This also makes melee combat really quick and simple, which makes a big difference compared to similar games.

3. Using a Center Point to Determine Charging Flanks -- this rule is just weird and sometimes can lead to unusual situations, but it is also very simple and easy to teach and play.

4. No Figure Removal -- contrary to some things I've read, there are situations where units can be weakened due to damage, though they are rare. Generally, units fight with the same strength until they die (or run away). This may seem unusual from a thematic perspective, but it speeds the game up quite a bit and lets players get creative with their models. If you space out your models on the base efficiently, then you can get away with using fewer models than normal, which is great if you're on a budget.

5. Wounds = Lowered Morale -- even though damage is labeled as "wounds" in the book, it is actually refering to the mental state of the unit. I have seen similar concepts in historical games like Black Powder, but few in fantasy ones (was it like this in Warmaster?). This both makes sense and reduces the overall bookkeeping required to play.

6. Less Empasis on Heroes -- sure, KoW has plenty of heroes and unique characters, but they are not as god-like as certain other fantasy games. They can certainly tip the balance in your favor, but cannot single-handedly win games.

Also, though I know it is isn't a new game by any means, Kings of War is a fairly popular rank-and-file fantasy wargame in a time when skirmish games seem to be dominating the wargaming scene. It already has a 3rd edition with yearly supplements that help expand on and balance it better than GW has done with theirs.

I was really impressed with my first outing with KoW and I highly recommend more people check it out. Its really refreshing compared to what GW has done with their fantasy games in the past five years or so.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/13 09:42:55


 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Lord of Change





Albany, NY

Glad you enjoyed it! I played WHFB for 20+ years and I'm always blown away by how enjoyable KOW is, streamlining and all.

Regarding heroes, there's been some effort made in the Clash of Kings 2022 supplement that just came out to increase the importance of individuals in particular, between buffs capable of making combat heroes a significant threat to units and an expanded spell selection making spellcasters more than just lightning batteries or bane chant / heal bots. On top of loads of other changes - COK22 really feels like the other part of KOW 3E has finally arrived.

KOW BATREPS: BLOODFIRE
INSTAGRAM: @boss_salvage 
   
Made in si
Foxy Wildborne







It's a great book despite the Stormcast Orks

I'm pretty casual so I'm seeing a lot of buffs on units I already take, which is nice.

Posters on ignore list: 36

40k Potica Edition - 40k patch with reactions, suppression and all that good stuff. Feedback thread here.

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Made in gr
Storm Trooper with Maglight





Some thoughts, regarding the factions I play.

Northern Alliance:

Human Clansmen seem as sub-par a unit as ever, seeing how the list has better tools for their potential battlefield roles. You can either raise their Defense to 3+ and their CS to 2 but the list already has Half-Elf Berserkers who do a better job in the suicidal charge department. Or you can raise their Defense to 5+ but then Ice Naiads Hordes or Dwarf Clansmen regiments still outperform them in the resilient anvil department. I don't think their somewhat complicated formation will see much use.
Clarion and Thegn on Frostfang got better and will be seen in lists more often. Thegn on FF might actually replace the Lord on FF by virtue of being much cheaper but not that much weaker.
Ice Kin Hunters are good at both melee and shooting now, which may allow some interesting elf-centric builds.

Varangur:

I've never used Horse Raiders before but the formation allows an interesting all-cav list, now that the Lord can also be Mounted. The new Character seems interesting too, especially against Forces of the Abyss and other character-heavy factions.
Reavers are still trash though, Lifeleech on a De 3+ Beserker unit simply isn't very useful.

League of Rhordia:

I really like the new Merc versatility, altough I think that the classic Dogs of War (aka the Shields of Hetronburg) remain the best option. I will definitely be using Mercs over common Foot Guard now. The formation is also great, I am thinking of new builds along the lines of 2 Halfling Hordes - Center, one Merc flank, one Honour Guard and/or Knight Reg flank and of course 3 Wizards on Pegasus as cheap LB sources/chaff/objective grabbers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/17 10:56:38


 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Lord of Change





Albany, NY

Esmer wrote:Human Clansmen seem as sub-par a unit as ever, seeing how the list has better tools for their potential battlefield roles. You can either raise their Defense to 3+ and their CS to 2 but the list already has Half-Elf Berserkers who do a better job in the suicidal charge department. Or you can raise their Defense to 5+ but then Ice Naiads Hordes or Dwarf Clansmen regiments still outperform them in the resilient anvil department. I don't think their somewhat complicated formation will see much use.
Fair points about human grunts having stiff competition across the Alliance. While there might be something to CS2 troops, I think it's as basic regiments that these guys are worth looking at. 120 pts for De4+ Nv13/15 US3 plus CS1 feels actually good. I run very similar regiments as the backbone of my Herd army and they are really great for scenario play, chaffing, combo-charges and do work in the flank. But otherwise I'm guessing people will just use the De5+ horde option, if anything.
Clarion and Thegn on Frostfang got better and will be seen in lists more often. Thegn on FF might actually replace the Lord on FF by virtue of being much cheaper but not that much weaker.
Frosthegn are SO cheap, still blows my mind. But then the Frostlord is as well. And at this point I'll admit that after reading your post I made a ridiculous 7x Clansmen reg + 3x Frosthegn + 3x Frostlord + token individual list
Spoiler:
Northern Alliance
Human Clansmen (Regiment) 120
Human Clansmen (Regiment) 120
Human Clansmen (Regiment) 120
Human Clansmen (Regiment) 120
Human Clansmen (Regiment) 120
Human Clansmen (Regiment) 120
Human Clansmen (Regiment) 120
Lord on Frostfang 190
- Brew of Sharpness 35
- Snow Fox 10
Lord on Frostfang 190
- Axe of the Giant Slayer 15
- Snow Fox 10
Lord on Frostfang 190
- Scythe of the Harvester 15
- Snow Fox 10
Thegn on Frostfang 125
- Snow Fox 10
Thegn on Frostfang 125
- Snow Fox 10
Thegn on Frostfang 125
- Snow Fox 10
Thegn 50
- Trickster's Wand 15
- Talanaar's Standard [1] - Rally (1) 15
- Snow Fox 10
-------------------------
Total Unit Strength: 27
Total Units: 14
Target Points: 2000
Core (Target%): 2000 (100.0%)
Ice Kin Hunters are good at both melee and shooting now, which may allow some interesting elf-centric builds.
It's nice to see some attention spent on the Kin elements of the list. Related, I didn't realize you could easily make an all Ice Kin elf list from the Alliance until today, might be something I keep an eye out for models of (until Mantic gives us more variety in their Ice Elves anyway).
Reavers are still trash though, Lifeleech on a De 3+ Beserker unit simply isn't very useful.
I remember in 2E people were hot for Reaver troops, WC(D3) just about puts them back on the menu. Huscarls' existence makes it hard to justify the regiment option tho, which is the level where LL(2) allllmost is a thing.
lord_blackfang wrote:It's a great book despite the Stormcast Orks
I gotta say, the Riftforged list is a lot more interesting than I thought it would be! Still there to smash faces but with more finesse / units than expected.
I'm pretty casual so I'm seeing a lot of buffs on units I already take, which is nice.
Big same, I like mediocre things and bad factions, so nice buffs are nice / don't change my plans much

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/11/17 19:32:41


KOW BATREPS: BLOODFIRE
INSTAGRAM: @boss_salvage 
   
Made in ca
Skink Chief with Poisoned Javelins




Michigan

The :"No figure removal" is one of the things that won me over, when I first discovered Kings of War.

I can see it being a turn off for some, but I love the ease of play and modeling opportunities it presents.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Central Valley, California

 krijthebold wrote:
The :"No figure removal" is one of the things that won me over, when I first discovered Kings of War.

I can see it being a turn off for some, but I love the ease of play and modeling opportunities it presents.


It won me over as well, along with the easy to grasp rule set.
Having trays moving around the table 80% empty in warhammer fantasy always kind of bothered me.

~ Shrap

Rolling 1's for five decades.
AoS * Konflikt '47 * Conquest Last Argument of Kings * A War Transformed  
   
Made in at
Second Story Man





Austria

I also see the no-figure-removal as a big bonus to the game
besides helping to speed up the game and make diorama bases possible, it makes the game/units look good until the end

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise 
   
Made in mo
Fresh-Faced New User




I’ve seen mixed feelings about the figure removal. Often, gamers with experience with historical minis have no problem with it (and many prefer it) while gamers who mainly play GW games feel like it is weird and unintuitive.

I like figure removal, since it can enhance the narrative feeling of games watching the armies sizes slowly dwindle. However, in modern Warhammer games when 90% of the models are removed during the first two turns of the game, it is kind of silly.

That said, for rank and file games like KoW, figure remove is just too fiddly, especially with larger games.
   
Made in ca
Skink Chief with Poisoned Javelins




Michigan

I always just struggled with it in rank and file games. For a skirmish style game figure removal makes more sense, and isn't a burden, but for mass battle it just becomes a pain to me.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



London




cpugeek13 wrote:
I just finished playing my first game of Kings of War and I had a blast! That said, it is a weird game that defies many modern wargame design trends...


Modern non wargaming design trends The actual wargaming world is a lot less like Warhammer which is becoming more MtG style (and comparable SciFi/Fantasy companies are following suit).

4. No Figure Removal -- contrary to some things I've read, there are situations where units can be weakened due to damage, though they are rare. Generally, units fight with the same strength until they die (or run away). This may seem unusual from a thematic perspective, but it speeds the game up quite a bit and lets players get creative with their models. If you space out your models on the base efficiently, then you can get away with using fewer models than normal, which is great if you're on a budget.
5. Wounds = Lowered Morale -- even though damage is labeled as "wounds" in the book, it is actually refering to the mental state of the unit. I have seen similar concepts in historical games like Black Powder, but few in fantasy ones (was it like this in Warmaster?). This both makes sense and reduces the overall bookkeeping required to play.


Given the period when units fought in blocks they actually wouldn't get worse due to casualties, because rear ranks would rotate forward. Being tired was more of an issue, and for the ancient period most casualties happened after you broke and ran.
   
Made in us
Courageous Questing Knight





Texas

We always placed an 8, 12 or 20 sided die on the base of the unit to track its morale, which worked really well. I modelled the unit bases to have room for a die to be placed and allowed me to get really creative, so I love that aspect of it - Also makes set up and clean up easier, too!

Once we tried KoW with the armies being much more balanced and the rules not being so incredibly bloated, we never went back to WHFB.

My Novella Collection is available on Amazon - Action/Fantasy/Sci-Fi - https://www.amazon.com/Three-Roads-Dreamt-Michael-Leonard/dp/1505716993/

 
   
Made in mo
Fresh-Faced New User




Anyone who thinks Kings of War is boring hasn’t actually played it. I’m actually kind of sick of how some other recent rulesets add in reaction rules just to “increase engagement” (I’m looking at you AoS 3.0). It’s possible to be plenty engaged with KoW even when you’re not physically taking actions or rolling dice.

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2022/05/13 05:54:49


 
   
Made in at
Second Story Man





Austria

This is somehting that comes as side effect from the popularity of GW games

a concept that GW uses and is identified by the community as the main problem must be bad by default
no matter if it is true or the game even uses the concept on the original sense

IGoUGo is bad because 40k/AoS is bad and this is the main reason for it (yet they are not really IGoUGo games)
Commands must be bad because 40k/AoS uses them and this is a reason (yet their version of command abilities and command points has nothing to do with how those are used in wargaming for decades now)

that alternating player turns are not an issue if the turn can be done fast and the whole game only last 2 hours instead of 4 is something you only recognize if you played such a game

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise 
   
Made in mo
Fresh-Faced New User




My biggest problem with GW games isn’t their core mechanics, it’s the bloat that comes with their marketing strategy. In order to maximize their profit, they need to constantly be releasing and promoting new products, which usually are new models and new rules. They start with a simple, fun system and layer on so many additional rules and mechanics that it becomes exhausting to play.

I had the most fun I’ve ever had with Warhammer 40k when 8th edition launched and you could only use CPs for command retools. Once they added in a couple dozen stratagems for each faction later in 8th and added all the additional secondary objectives (and other competitive play mechanics) in 9th, I finally called it quits.

With AoS, I had the most fun with 2nd edition, but with 3rd I find the new reaction mechanics to not bring any new enjoyment to the experience. They ruin the flow of play and don’t really enhance the core gameplay that much. If you want to let people make reactions every phase, why not just switch to an alternating activations system?

From what I’ve seen so far, Mantic games rules are very streamlined and have (mostly) avoided any kind of bloat. Like GW, they also have very simple, solid core rules, but they don’t layer the same amount of BS on them as GW does.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/13 08:45:15


 
   
Made in au
Noise Marine Terminator with Sonic Blaster





Melbourne

If you're playing in clocked tournaments, which are the standard, while your opponent is taking their turn you should be planning your turn out

Ex-Mantic Rules Committees: Kings of War, Warpath
"The Emperor is obviously not a dictator, he's a couch."
Starbuck: "Why can't we use the starboard launch bays?"
Engineer: "Because it's a gift shop!" 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Lord of Change





Albany, NY

I also appreciate that KOW's total separation of turns makes clock play far more functional than games where you're constantly slapping the clock back and forth to roll armor saves or whatever. Clocks in GW games are kind of a nonsensical experience for me.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/05/13 14:33:03


KOW BATREPS: BLOODFIRE
INSTAGRAM: @boss_salvage 
   
Made in ca
Grumpy Longbeard





Canada

cpugeek13 wrote:My biggest problem with GW games isn’t their core mechanics, it’s the bloat that comes with their marketing strategy. In order to maximize their profit, they need to constantly be releasing and promoting new products, which usually are new models and new rules. They start with a simple, fun system and layer on so many additional rules and mechanics that it becomes exhausting to play.

I had the most fun I’ve ever had with Warhammer 40k when 8th edition launched and you could only use CPs for command retools. Once they added in a couple dozen stratagems for each faction later in 8th and added all the additional secondary objectives (and other competitive play mechanics) in 9th, I finally called it quits.

Agreed. I quit 40k then too; I hoped they would use the blank slate to improve, but it was just a "reset" so that they could sell a new pile of bloat.
In both Warhammers I got to the stage where I would just ask my opponent to just let me know which save to roll because trying to follow (never mind verify) the combos of unique rules they were using was not worth the effort.

Baragash wrote:If you're playing in clocked tournaments, which are the standard, while your opponent is taking their turn you should be planning your turn out

I recall getting awfully frustrated trying to look up a rule while being constantly interrupted to roll saves.
There are things other than playing to do during a game and a little down time in those 2 hours helps; one might put away their dead pile, organise dice or tokens, get drinks, the consequence of getting drinks, look up a rule get a breath of fresh air, check in on another game, etc.
I spend most of my opponent's turn figuring out what I want to do (which speeds up my turn) and communicating with my opponent; like agreeing on their intentions (like the ranges they are moving units into) so that it doesn't become an argument later or reminding them of stats, abilities and artefacts, so that they don't get NPE surprise later (or waste time looking that up).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/05/15 01:37:33


Nightstalkers Dwarfs
GASLANDS!
Holy Roman Empire  
   
Made in us
Courageous Questing Knight





Texas

cpugeek13 wrote:
My biggest problem with GW games isn’t their core mechanics, it’s the bloat that comes with their marketing strategy. In order to maximize their profit, they need to constantly be releasing and promoting new products, which usually are new models and new rules. They start with a simple, fun system and layer on so many additional rules and mechanics that it becomes exhausting to play.

...

From what I’ve seen so far, Mantic games rules are very streamlined and have (mostly) avoided any kind of bloat. Like GW, they also have very simple, solid core rules, but they don’t layer the same amount of BS on them as GW does.


++++++ to this!!!

My Novella Collection is available on Amazon - Action/Fantasy/Sci-Fi - https://www.amazon.com/Three-Roads-Dreamt-Michael-Leonard/dp/1505716993/

 
   
 
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