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2021/11/22 13:16:10
Subject: Chaplain + Ancient to give a +2 to leadership?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I'm pretty sure this wouldn't hold up in a debate, but I'll run it by you people to see what you think.
Here are the two rules I'm looking at:
Spiritual Leaders (Aura): While a friendly GREY KNIGHTS CORE unit is within 6" of this model, models in that unit can use this model’s Leadership characteristic (9) instead of their own.
Sacred Banner (Aura): While a friendly <BROTHERHOOD> CORE unit is within 6" of this model, add 1 to the Leadership characteristic of models in that unit. In addition, while a friendly <BROTHERHOOD> CORE INFANTRY unit is within 6" of this model, add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of models in that unit.
Would these stack?
I think since the (in this case) Terminators are "using" another person's Leadership, and the Banner gives them their buff directly, that the two don't stack.
I would love more than anything to be wrong, which I think is why I'm posting this here.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/22 13:17:14
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2021/11/22 13:32:20
Subject: Chaplain + Ancient to give a +2 to leadership?
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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You are correct.
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Stormonu wrote:For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules" |
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2021/11/22 13:42:17
Subject: Chaplain + Ancient to give a +2 to leadership?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Correct
The bonus to leadership from the banner doesn't affect the chaplain, and the terminators use the chaplains leadership instead of their value, and their value is what's being altered.
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2021/11/22 13:43:08
Subject: Chaplain + Ancient to give a +2 to leadership?
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Confessor Of Sins
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Per the rules for modifying characteristics, any rule that requires you to change a characteristic to a fixed value are done before any addition. Therefore you would replace the characteristic before adding 1 to it. The abilities would stack if a unit is under both effects.
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2021/11/22 13:52:23
Subject: Chaplain + Ancient to give a +2 to leadership?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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alextroy wrote:Per the rules for modifying characteristics, any rule that requires you to change a characteristic to a fixed value are done before any addition. Therefore you would replace the characteristic before adding 1 to it. The abilities would stack if a unit is under both effects.
Mixed opinions so far, but this one matters more than the others it seems. Do you have a reference to this rule I can read?
NEVERMIND, I found it
MODIFYING CHARACTERISTICS
Many rules modify the characteristics of models and weapons. All modifiers to a characteristic are cumulative; you must apply division modifiers before applying multiplication modifiers, and before applying addition and then subtraction modifiers. Round any fractions up after applying all modifiers. If a rule instructs you to replace one characteristic with a specified value, change the relevant characteristic to the new value before applying any modifiers that apply from other rules (if any) to the new value. Regardless of the source, the Strength, Toughness, Attacks and Leadership characteristics of a model can never be modified below 1.
You may encounter a characteristic that is a random value instead of a number. For example, a Move characteristic might be 2D6", or an Attacks value might be D6. When a unit with a random Move characteristic is selected to move, determine the entire unit’s move distance by rolling the indicated number of dice. For all other characteristics, roll to determine the value on an individual – per‑model or per-weapon – basis each time that characteristic is required.
Characteristics of ‘-’ can never be modified. If a model has a Strength or Leadership characteristic of ‘-’ and that characteristic is required to resolve a rule, then substitute the model’s Toughness characteristic for that characteristic for the purposes of resolving that rule (note that the substituted characteristic still cannot be modified).
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/11/22 14:13:19
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2021/11/22 17:02:05
Subject: Chaplain + Ancient to give a +2 to leadership?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Huh, good shout there. It's an odd way to do it.
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2021/11/22 20:42:42
Subject: Chaplain + Ancient to give a +2 to leadership?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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The rules don’t stack. The modifying characteristics rule doesn’t apply. The unit isn’t replacing or modifying their own Ld characteristic, the are instead using the Chaplain’s Leadership.
Using another unit’s leadership doesn’t replace that units own leadership characteristic you simply don’t use it. The modifiers apply to the units own Ld but not the Chaplains and you can choose which to use as per “Spiritual Leaders”.
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2021/11/22 21:16:22
Subject: Chaplain + Ancient to give a +2 to leadership?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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"o replace one characteristic with a specified value"
Is exactly what you're doing here. It even tells you what the value is.
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2021/11/23 00:15:12
Subject: Chaplain + Ancient to give a +2 to leadership?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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nosferatu1001 wrote:"o replace one characteristic with a specified value"
Is exactly what you're doing here. It even tells you what the value is.
I disagree. You aren’t replacing the leadership characteristic with a specific value, but using a different leadership characteristic from a different unit altogether. The unit’s own Ld isn’t replaced, it simply isn’t used. Any modifiers that are applied would be applied to the (unused) leadership. In fact the player is allowed to choose which leadership value to use, and if there are modifiers improving their own value then they need not use the chaplain’s leadership at all.
“use this model’s Leadership characteristic (9) instead of their own” is different from “replace their own leadership characteristic with this model’s Leadership characteristic”. Using something and replacing something are not the same.
Similar situations come up when applying negative leadership modifiers to a unit that benefits from a character’s leadership aura where negative modifiers are circumvented.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/11/23 00:20:20
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2021/11/23 02:52:18
Subject: Chaplain + Ancient to give a +2 to leadership?
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Confessor Of Sins
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Aash wrote:The rules don’t stack. The modifying characteristics rule doesn’t apply. The unit isn’t replacing or modifying their own Ld characteristic, the are instead using the Chaplain’s Leadership.
Using another unit’s leadership doesn’t replace that units own leadership characteristic you simply don’t use it. The modifiers apply to the units own Ld but not the Chaplains and you can choose which to use as per “Spiritual Leaders”.
An interesting interpretation. Do you have a rules basis to support your assertion that using another units leadership characteristic is not replacing yours with a different value? An FAQ, Glossary, or Rare Rules statement?
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2021/11/23 08:29:07
Subject: Chaplain + Ancient to give a +2 to leadership?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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alextroy wrote:Aash wrote:The rules don’t stack. The modifying characteristics rule doesn’t apply. The unit isn’t replacing or modifying their own Ld characteristic, the are instead using the Chaplain’s Leadership.
Using another unit’s leadership doesn’t replace that units own leadership characteristic you simply don’t use it. The modifiers apply to the units own Ld but not the Chaplains and you can choose which to use as per “Spiritual Leaders”.
An interesting interpretation. Do you have a rules basis to support your assertion that using another units leadership characteristic is not replacing yours with a different value? An FAQ, Glossary, or Rare Rules statement?
I don’t think there is an FAQ or anything clarifying this, it would be nice if there were.
As for a rules statement, the rules for modifying characteristics don’t support the argument that using a different unit’s characteristic is a modifier.
Curiously, you seem to have taken the same view not so long ago:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/797838.page#11107439
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2021/11/23 08:44:03
Subject: Chaplain + Ancient to give a +2 to leadership?
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Nihilistic Necron Lord
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Aash wrote: alextroy wrote:Aash wrote:The rules don’t stack. The modifying characteristics rule doesn’t apply. The unit isn’t replacing or modifying their own Ld characteristic, the are instead using the Chaplain’s Leadership.
Using another unit’s leadership doesn’t replace that units own leadership characteristic you simply don’t use it. The modifiers apply to the units own Ld but not the Chaplains and you can choose which to use as per “Spiritual Leaders”.
An interesting interpretation. Do you have a rules basis to support your assertion that using another units leadership characteristic is not replacing yours with a different value? An FAQ, Glossary, or Rare Rules statement?
I don’t think there is an FAQ or anything clarifying this, it would be nice if there were.
As for a rules statement, the rules for modifying characteristics don’t support the argument that using a different unit’s characteristic is a modifier.
Curiously, you seem to have taken the same view not so long ago:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/797838.page#11107439
If you dont think that the rules for modifying characteristics work here, can you give an example where it would work ? Otherwise i would say that it stacks.
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2021/11/23 13:37:04
Subject: Re:Chaplain + Ancient to give a +2 to leadership?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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So I'd like to make my 3-point argument for this ruling:
1. Investment
I literally PAID to have both the Chaplain's and Ancient's rules, so why wouldn't they stack?
2. RAW
The documented rules we have here are not layered in their verification, but seem to be quite clear on the existence of such ability stacking
3. RAI
This stack isn't broken. I would have gotten the same effect if I had invested in a 2nd Ancient, and base Ldr. 7/8 is the lowest set our main army has, so this ruling cannot be stretched any further.
I try to be as fair as I can, and even though I'm biased in this argument, I think the evidence is enough.
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2021/11/23 14:06:31
Subject: Chaplain + Ancient to give a +2 to leadership?
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Confessor Of Sins
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Aash wrote: alextroy wrote:Aash wrote:The rules don’t stack. The modifying characteristics rule doesn’t apply. The unit isn’t replacing or modifying their own Ld characteristic, the are instead using the Chaplain’s Leadership.
Using another unit’s leadership doesn’t replace that units own leadership characteristic you simply don’t use it. The modifiers apply to the units own Ld but not the Chaplains and you can choose which to use as per “Spiritual Leaders”.
An interesting interpretation. Do you have a rules basis to support your assertion that using another units leadership characteristic is not replacing yours with a different value? An FAQ, Glossary, or Rare Rules statement?
I don’t think there is an FAQ or anything clarifying this, it would be nice if there were.
As for a rules statement, the rules for modifying characteristics don’t support the argument that using a different unit’s characteristic is a modifier.
Curiously, you seem to have taken the same view not so long ago:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/797838.page#11107439
Fair observation. I must revise me prior view based on a lack of definition for what “use” means in the rules. The best I can come up with is that it replaces yours. We will have to see if GW defines it further at some future date.
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2021/11/23 20:57:19
Subject: Chaplain + Ancient to give a +2 to leadership?
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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Nothing replaces the unit’s Ld. That is an interpretation not supported by the text. As such the modifying rules don’t come into play. The banner doesn’t add to the Chaplain’s Ld. it add to the unit’s, but we’re not using that value. So it doesn’t stack. Anything else simply isn’t supported. This has been consensus so long as these combos have existed. People can try and twist it but it doesn’t make it fit.
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Stormonu wrote:For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules" |
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2021/11/23 21:27:15
Subject: Chaplain + Ancient to give a +2 to leadership?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Spiritual Leaders (Aura): While a friendly GREY KNIGHTS CORE unit is within 6" of this model, models in that unit can use this model’s Leadership characteristic instead of their own.
the feth?
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/11/23 21:30:05
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2021/11/23 21:44:01
Subject: Chaplain + Ancient to give a +2 to leadership?
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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It does not replace the unit’s Ld value, which has a set meaning. You use a different unit’s Ld value to take the test.
No need for swearing.
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Stormonu wrote:For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules" |
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2021/11/23 22:16:52
Subject: Chaplain + Ancient to give a +2 to leadership?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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JohnnyHell wrote:It does not replace the unit’s Ld value, which has a set meaning. You use a different unit’s Ld value to take the test.
No need for swearing.
What you're saying is very picky, and I think if you had some counter evidence to lay down you would have already, so I'm going to stick with this ruling.
Have a nice day?
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2021/11/24 00:07:33
Subject: Chaplain + Ancient to give a +2 to leadership?
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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It’s not picky; it’s simply not inventing words that aren’t there.
To be fair, I have COVID so I’m having a horrible day, but I’ll take the sentiment even if not actually meant!
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Stormonu wrote:For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules" |
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2021/11/24 01:47:55
Subject: Chaplain + Ancient to give a +2 to leadership?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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JohnnyHell wrote:It’s not picky; it’s simply not inventing words that aren’t there.
To be fair, I have COVID so I’m having a horrible day, but I’ll take the sentiment even if not actually meant!
Taking something from someone else and using it for yourself is a literal definition of "replacement".
And you should def get vaccinated.
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2021/11/24 07:44:57
Subject: Chaplain + Ancient to give a +2 to leadership?
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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_SeeD_ wrote: JohnnyHell wrote:It’s not picky; it’s simply not inventing words that aren’t there. To be fair, I have COVID so I’m having a horrible day, but I’ll take the sentiment even if not actually meant! Taking something from someone else and using it for yourself is a literal definition of "replacement".
Not in this context it is not. They are using the other stat instead of their own for the roll. Their stat on their Dataslate does not become the other stat ever, they just use the other guy's stat for their roll. So no replacement of the unit's stat ever happens.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/24 07:45:28
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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2021/11/24 08:32:12
Subject: Re:Chaplain + Ancient to give a +2 to leadership?
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Nihilistic Necron Lord
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I am still waiting for an actual rule which replaces another characteristic from those who say that it doesnt stack. So far no one has provided such a rule. If you cant then using another leadership must be what is meant by the modifying characteristics rule.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/24 08:33:03
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2021/11/24 08:45:43
Subject: Chaplain + Ancient to give a +2 to leadership?
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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It’s all there in the actual rules, as already detailed. Don’t be going with those bad faith takes, p5freak. Automatically Appended Next Post: _SeeD_ wrote: JohnnyHell wrote:It’s not picky; it’s simply not inventing words that aren’t there.
To be fair, I have COVID so I’m having a horrible day, but I’ll take the sentiment even if not actually meant!
Taking something from someone else and using it for yourself is a literal definition of "replacement".
And you should def get vaccinated.
I have been vaccinated, I’m not an idiot. it’s still quite the hellish ride.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/24 08:46:25
Stormonu wrote:For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules" |
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2021/11/24 13:04:36
Subject: Chaplain + Ancient to give a +2 to leadership?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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JohnnyHell wrote:It’s all there in the actual rules, as already detailed. Don’t be going with those bad faith takes, p5freak.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
_SeeD_ wrote: JohnnyHell wrote:It’s not picky; it’s simply not inventing words that aren’t there.
To be fair, I have COVID so I’m having a horrible day, but I’ll take the sentiment even if not actually meant!
Taking something from someone else and using it for yourself is a literal definition of "replacement".
And you should def get vaccinated.
I have been vaccinated, I’m not an idiot. it’s still quite the hellish ride.
This is absolutely horrifying.
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2021/11/26 18:21:31
Subject: Chaplain + Ancient to give a +2 to leadership?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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If someone casts Cacophonic Choir on a unit near a Chaplain, would it roll against the Chaplain's leadership or the unit's own?
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2021/11/26 18:53:36
Subject: Re:Chaplain + Ancient to give a +2 to leadership?
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Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries
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p5freak wrote:I am still waiting for an actual rule which replaces another characteristic from those who say that it doesnt stack. So far no one has provided such a rule. If you cant then using another leadership must be what is meant by the modifying characteristics rule.
How about the SM Jump Pack wargear?
Jump pack: The bearer has a Move characteristic of 12, ...
EDIT:
Saw a Servitor's Mindlock ability, that might more appropriate given the context.
Mindlock: While this unit is within 6" of any friendly <CHAPTER> TECHMARINE units, models in this unit have a Weapon Skill and Ballistic Skill characteristic of 4+ and a Leadership characteristic of 9.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/27 14:39:36
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