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Made in de
Boom! Leman Russ Commander






I'm not completely sure with the subforum, but I guess background fits best. I was looking at my collection, planning to add some IG heavy weapons squads to the Tallarn side of my force and was considering if I want to go bipod, tripod, wheeled carriage or one of Anvils self driven traktors. Especially regarding the tripod option in GWs boxes I became a bit puzzled thinking "how exactly are those weapons transported?" Ignoring the very bulky look of the GW heavy weapons that must weight a lot and attributing this to the usual scale issues lets assume what counts as IG heavy weapon would be comparable in weight and measures to a modern heavy machine gun or anti-materiel rifle. Does anybody know how those are transported to and on a battlezone currently?

I assume outside of combat they are on a truck or towed by jeeps etc.? And once there: is it realistic for two dudes (gunner/loader) to carry a heavy weapon (as said, assume it's in the same weight range as a HMG) + a reasonable amount of ammunition? And if the situation changes and you want to redeploy lets say 500 metres. Do the two dudes pick it up and carry it around or do they wait for a jeep or something to come around and get it?

~6550 build and painted
819 build and painted
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Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Out of combat, they're transported via Munitorum stowage vehicles like trucks, Chimeras, or local equivalents.
In combat, they just have to pick it up and move it although the general idea of support weapons is that they have good range so constant maneuvers aren't really required. Combine that with the cavalier attitude the Imperium takes towards its mortal soldiers and you get two-man HWT.
That being said, some worlds/Regiments have different equipment and have built-in redundancies for rapid relocation (although they are primarily for aesthetic reasons).
Death Korps HWTs have wheels attached to the bottom to mimic WW1 support weapons:
Spoiler:

Elysians have handles attached to the top so it's easier to pick up the weapon:
Spoiler:

However, prior to the release of the Cadian and Catachan plastic kits, Guard HWTs did have wheels:
Spoiler:
   
Made in us
Ship's Officer





Dallas, TX

If you're a Catachan you can wield it by yourself, or some Catachan-like individual such as Braggs on Tanith First. I model a PF wielding a HW and it looks the part.

Spoiler:


A added knife handle modified to the top of a HB.
Spoiler:
   
Made in gb
Leader of the Sept







Going back to the WW2 German definitions of HMG and LMG, the gun was the same, it was just the mount and the amoutn of available ammot that differed. an LMG would be bipod mounted and with as much ammo as the two-person team could carry, with maybe additional cans carried by the squad they were with.

HMG teams were 4-8 people, with the gunner and everyone else carrying and feeding ammo.

Brigade level heavy weapon platoons I imagine would have organic mechanised transport. Squad level teams just rely on the weapon team and the associated squad to hump the heavy stuff themselves.

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in de
Boom! Leman Russ Commander






Thanks already. If I go tripod, the handles are a relly good idea I think. But the wheels also look good. Some more to think about.

~6550 build and painted
819 build and painted
830 
   
Made in fr
Stalwart Tribune





On the field, the weapon would simply be carried by the soldiers using it. Depending on how heavy the whole system is, it takes more or less people. A "medium" machine gun with its own integrated bipod is likely to be light enough to be carried by one person. With another one carrying ammunition (and spare parts like extra barrels), it can work with just the gunner + loader crew.

For a truly heavy weapon, you might have one guy carrying the front half of the gun, another carrying the back half, one guy carrying the tripod and a bunch more for ammo. Most heavy weapons are (or at least should be) designed to be disassembled and reassembled quickly. And sometimes the problem is size as much as weight; when massive anti-tank rifles were popular in the 1930s, they could be over 2m long!
   
Made in eu
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'





United Kingdom

You could replace the bi/tripod with some sort of sled for Tallarn, assuming they're operating on sand.
   
Made in gb
Mad Gyrocopter Pilot





Northumberland

When you're thinking of IG, think more towards the WW1 rather than more modern machine guns. You're thinking heavy, stationary gun emplacements (obviously aesthetically different with more mobile regiments).

I'd go with wheels, which for most regiments is the best bet. You can lug it with your poor grunts or you can tie it to a tractor/jeep/horse delete as appropriate.


One and a half feet in the hobby


My Painting Log of various minis:
# Olthannon's Oscillating Orchard of Opportunity #

 
   
Made in gb
Leader of the Sept







For maximum grimdark, give them a super sophisticated anti gravity sled support system. That is then Pulled by horses/sweating teams of indentured workers

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in gb
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch




dorset

traditionally, a crew served weapon like heavy MGs, light mortars and such were broken down into several components for transit, with each member of the crew getting a separate part of the gun. for example, the lascannon might break down into the weapon itself, the mount, and the power supply/ammo, all of which are carried by a seperate person to lug abount, and are slotted back together when the weapon is in position. it was sorta possible to move some of them assembled by having three blokes pick up the tripod and lift it. Historical heavy weapons teams were 4-5 men strong, so this isnt as big a problem for them, but IG teams are only 2 men, closer to historical squad weapons teams (ie, the LMG teams in most nations squads), or modern GMPG/ATGW teams, however all of those are for weapons much smaller and easier to transport than guard heavy weapons (even if you assume "heroic" scaling is making them bigger than they "really" are), and can normally be operated by one man with a ammo carrier for an assistant. for a video reference with a old school MG, watch the early episodes of "the pacific" where the marines are still using Browning M1917s (which are ww1 vintage water cooled machine guns being used as a platoon support weapon, need to be broken down to transport, and weight about 43kg)

for weapons too big for this, or ones where breaking it down impractical (mainly anti-tank guns), the answer was small wheeled carridges, like those seen on the old guard weapon teams, or for historical versions, look to anti-tank guns (especially the PAK-36, a early war AT gun), "infantry guns" like the IG 18, light AA autocannons (FLAK 30, or Oerlikon 20mm mounts) or the recoiless rifles used in the late war ( search for "LeichtgeschĂĽtz "). most of the wheeled guns were intended to be pulled by vehicles, normally jeeps (Or national equivalents), but most could be man-handled short distances for tactical movement (ie when it wasnt safe to be driving a soft skinned vehicle).

So, the short answer is that the guard heavy weapons teams probably just pick the damm things up and run with them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/27 16:21:40


To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

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Made in ca
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran



Canada

Most of the IG heavy weapons should be three-man lifts (barrel, receiver and tripod or barrel, baseplate and tripod) plus folks carrying ammo, but this is the Imperium. Brute force and ignorance will prevail. Two men it is.

In real life, I was an allied Armour officer on exchange with an infantry battalion Weapons Company. While there were HMMVWs (and occasionally horses/mules) to carry the weapons, often it turned to manpower to get the weapons around. Grunts can get weapons into all sorts of places over all sorts of terrain. With all sorts of effort.

Looking at historical examples from WW1 and WW2, troops have used poles, wheels, sleds and other contrivances to supplement their brute force in getting heavy weapons into better positions.

All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand 
   
Made in gb
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch




dorset

Another point occured to me and i thought i would share it:

very commonly, the ammo for support weapons is spread out among everyone in the squad, to lighten the load of the gun group. So, for a machine gun, every rifeman might have a hundred round belt in their backpack/belt kit, and part of the assistant gunners job is getting the ammo off the rest of the squad to feed the gun.

if you look at histoical photos of soldiers you will often see ammo belts thrown over shoulders like a bandolier, and ww2 british belt kit (37 pattern webbing) had two large pouches on the front, not for the rifleman's own ammo, but for magazines for the section bren gun. When the brits still had the LSW in service (stopped using it a few years ago), every rifleman would have 2 or 3 extra mags that were supposed to be given to the gunner to keep him shooting, and i believe the US marines are doing something similar with their new M27 IAR, having each rifleman carry a few extra mags for use by the guy using his IAR as a LMG.

so, when considering the guard heavy weapon teams, just remeber that ammo doesnt automatically need to be moved by just the two man crew, it could be humped up by the rest of the unit and then dumped on them as they go in for the attack. Also, adding things like spare HB ammo or rockets to other models in a squad would be both realistic and visually intresting.

To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

Coven of XVth 2000pts
The Blades of Ruin 2,000pts Watch Company Rho 1650pts
 
   
Made in ca
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran



Canada

Good point on distributed ammo carriage. Standard practice in dismounted ops to have each soldier carry a mortar bomb or two to drop off at the mortar position, along with some belts of ammo for the "heavy guns."

The 40K autocannon still looks like a three-man load to me (call it an HMG on steroids) while the Heavy Bolter looks a little like a Mk19/C16 in terms of weight etc.

I suppose "heroic scale" forgives all?

All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Real life heavy weapons could be carried many ways. Usually the tripod mount is disassembled into various pieces which are individually carried by a soldier. One guy carries the gun, another the tripod, another the ammo. This is the real reason these weapons have 2-3 crew. One dude can load and shoot an HMG by himself. He needs a couple friends if he wants to move it and carry any substantial amount of ammo.

Anti-tank rifles, particularly the big ones like Lhatis, sometimes had sleds.



Other would have wheels. Maxium guns often had little wheeled carriages.




With a Mortar one dude is carrying the baseplate, another the tube, and another some ammo.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/29 06:22:38


Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Not being able to fire a heavy weapon single handed isn’t the same as not being able to carry it.

It seems likely the guns are just carried by hand during a mission.

   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut





xerxeskingofking wrote:
(even if you assume "heroic" scaling is making them bigger than they "really" are)

You don't need to assume, GW plastic weapons are stupidly oversized. Heavy bolter is supposed to be 20-25 mm, while model one is more like 50-60 mm gun. It should be 1/3 as thick as it is on the model (even if we assume it's about as tall to give space for mechanisms inside, though it really should be half in that dimension, too) making it decidedly more man portable weapon. Also, they have future materials, the gun made from composites and carbon fiber will be much lighter than one made from steel so size is not really an indication of weight.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Most of the IG heavy weapons should be three-man lifts (barrel, receiver and tripod or barrel, baseplate and tripod) plus folks carrying ammo, but this is the Imperium. Brute force and ignorance will prevail. Two men it is.

Erm, in real life, squad support weapons also often have 1-2 crew, it's the job of rest of the squad to carry ammo and help with the weapon as needed. If there is an unrealistic bit, it's the fact that all of IG 'heavy guns' are depicted as squad level, while there should be a few lighter ones in that role and a few heavier in company support level (which should be like current HWT squad, but separate from infantry squads and with extra mooks as ablative wounds/helping to carry stuff, maybe 1 heavier HWT per 4-5 models?).
   
Made in ca
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran



Canada

 Irbis wrote:
xerxeskingofking wrote:
(even if you assume "heroic" scaling is making them bigger than they "really" are)

You don't need to assume, GW plastic weapons are stupidly oversized. Heavy bolter is supposed to be 20-25 mm, while model one is more like 50-60 mm gun. It should be 1/3 as thick as it is on the model (even if we assume it's about as tall to give space for mechanisms inside, though it really should be half in that dimension, too) making it decidedly more man portable weapon. Also, they have future materials, the gun made from composites and carbon fiber will be much lighter than one made from steel so size is not really an indication of weight.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Most of the IG heavy weapons should be three-man lifts (barrel, receiver and tripod or barrel, baseplate and tripod) plus folks carrying ammo, but this is the Imperium. Brute force and ignorance will prevail. Two men it is.

Erm, in real life, squad support weapons also often have 1-2 crew, it's the job of rest of the squad to carry ammo and help with the weapon as needed. If there is an unrealistic bit, it's the fact that all of IG 'heavy guns' are depicted as squad level, while there should be a few lighter ones in that role and a few heavier in company support level (which should be like current HWT squad, but separate from infantry squads and with extra mooks as ablative wounds/helping to carry stuff, maybe 1 heavier HWT per 4-5 models?).


What are you "erming" about? My point is that most of the IG heavy weapons, as depicted (except the Missile Launcher perhaps), should be three-man lifts. That Autocannon would be a heck of a two man-lift. Those wheels on the Heavy Bolter carriage are not going to help cross country. That mortar sure doesn't look like a 60mm. I'm Ok with though. Its 40K! I also realize that there is some "heroic scale" going on. I guess you can have your Impossibilium material to make it work.

I'm in an army IRL for what its worth. Perhaps we are in violent agreement? I think a Heavy Stubber would make a more sensible squad-level heavy weapon.

All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand 
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






The problem is a Heavy Stubber is garbage. They do exist, in both .30 and .50 caliber forms but only for the Tanith 1st and another random throwaway Regiment. The thing is why do that when Autocannons or Heavy Bolters can be taken instead? HS are obviously anti-infantry weapons but both the AC and HB do it better. DKoK have the twin linked version and R&H HWT could take a Stubber but when you can pay like 5 Points in game to up it to a HB or AC instead, why bother?
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Heavy Stubber is definitely under-powered for the game as it is. But that is down to the game revolving more around stronger stuff like vehicles and monsters. If the game was 90% infantry and the stubber had slightly better fire rate it would be much better. It is supposed to be basically an M2 .50 browning.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut





TangoTwoBravo wrote:
What are you "erming" about? My point is that most of the IG heavy weapons, as depicted (except the Missile Launcher perhaps), should be three-man lifts.

No, they really shouldn't. Heavy bolter and lascannon are perfectly fine divided into two people (tripod + ammo and the gun itself) especially as drawn in better 40K art. Mortar would also be fine if we assume barrel is light, it's low pressure weapon after all. Yes, autocannon would be problematic as would be heavier mortars (and, say, heavy lascannon equivalent) and these should be restricted to HWT squads, but nothing else would that bad.

And you don't need 'Impossibilium', carbon fiber is light enough already. 5 meter long Formula 1 car weights 600 kilograms, 40% of what sport car of the same size would, even though it utilizes CF pretty sparingly. Mortar tube made out of CF would be so light even a child could lift it, all Imperium needs is cheaper process to make it and they are good at that front.

 Gert wrote:
The problem is a Heavy Stubber is garbage. They do exist, in both .30 and .50 caliber forms but only for the Tanith 1st and another random throwaway Regiment. The thing is why do that when Autocannons or Heavy Bolters can be taken instead? HS are obviously anti-infantry weapons but both the AC and HB do it better. DKoK have the twin linked version and R&H HWT could take a Stubber but when you can pay like 5 Points in game to up it to a HB or AC instead, why bother?

In real army, these would be squad level weapons and the only stuff infantry squad could take. Then you'd have platoon level heavy weapons and company level one - and these squads would take them because that would be only option available. You might as well ask why every squad in WW1 wargame at best has LMG or marksman instead of two HMGs or heavy mortars, armed forces don't work that way. You're limited by logistics and cost of guns and their ammo, so equipment is a game of tradeoffs not spamming heaviest guns possible everywhere.
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






Good thing the Imperium is a colossal empire with massive amounts of industry that pumps out millions, if not billions, of guns every couple of months so cost and lack of equipment isn't really a huge concern for 80% of Guard Regiments. Plus the Guard is the furthest away from a "real army" you can get. We might not be able to equip every single Infantry squad with hi-tech AT weaponry but a planet of untold riches could easily equip its Regiments with Lascannons and Plasma Guns.
If Guard were anywhere close in similarity to actual real world armies then they'd be boring as heck

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/02 21:26:47


 
   
Made in us
The Marine Standing Behind Marneus Calgar





Upstate, New York

Don’t forget that suspensors are a thing to help with weight. Not sure how many find their way to the guard these days; they had them back when they were firing lascannons from their shoulders.

   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Most of the IG heavy weapons should be three-man lifts (barrel, receiver and tripod or barrel, baseplate and tripod) plus folks carrying ammo, but this is the Imperium. Brute force and ignorance will prevail. Two men it is.

In real life, I was an allied Armour officer on exchange with an infantry battalion Weapons Company. While there were HMMVWs (and occasionally horses/mules) to carry the weapons, often it turned to manpower to get the weapons around. Grunts can get weapons into all sorts of places over all sorts of terrain. With all sorts of effort.

Looking at historical examples from WW1 and WW2, troops have used poles, wheels, sleds and other contrivances to supplement their brute force in getting heavy weapons into better positions.


This, the Imperial Guard is based largely on historical armies. So simply looking to how these weapons are transported IRL makes perfect sense.
   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

You pick up a heavy bolter the same way you pick up a GPMG, M60, 50cal, or some such. Yes the heavy bolter is big, but that is because it is heroic scale, like everything else.
When you deproportion the man down, also deproportion the gun. There is no need for a heavy bolter to be the size of a steamer trunk, it could instead be the size of a 50 cal.
You might not want to try and hip shoot it if you are not astartes, but you can certainly port it about between firing positions with a little help from your squad.

n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Biloxi, MS USA

 Gert wrote:
Good thing the Imperium is a colossal empire with massive amounts of industry that pumps out millions, if not billions, of guns every couple of months so cost and lack of equipment isn't really a huge concern for 80% of Guard Regiments.


This is said as someone who is completely unaware of how the Departmento Munitorum works and how often unreliable and incompetent they can be.

You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was 
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






The Munitorum is incompetent yes, but if it was as incompetent as people make it out to be then the Imperium would have collapsed long ago. So either enough Regiments get their supply in good time OR 40k is so removed from reality that a galaxy spanning empire still functions with no functioning logistics system.
We have incidents of Regiments maybe not getting enough clips of ammo for their Lasguns or mortar rounds but their entire compliments of heavy weapons? No, not regularly enough to be a serious concern.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/03 10:34:57


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Biloxi, MS USA

That second option is literally half the point of the Imperium. It's parody to the point of absurdity, it's not meant to be realistic. We're talking about an empire where they can track record of a planet because some data statistician thinks it's an error but also thinks physically burning a library is enough to delete the records and history of an entire Astartes Chapter.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/12/03 10:45:39


You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was 
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






I mean, you do know what happened to the Great Library right? How little we know of the ancient world and things like the Sea Peoples? Or that loads of ancient texts were written over by various religious clerks because they thought that history took a backseat to God? A Library burned in M34 could easily have all its knowledge lost by M37.
We're clearly not going to agree on the fact that the Munitorum has to be at least competent on the macro so let's just leave it there.
   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

The Administratum is not incompetent, they just don't sweat the small stuff.

Note that 40K ignores microeconomics. If your workforce hasn't been paid and has insufficient food? It must be a day ending in 'y'. People going on strike and societies collapsing because the basic logistical threats are cut works in the West, less so in somewhere like Maoist China, and almost not at all in the Imperium of Man.

Notice what gets noticed. In some Forgeworld campaign books, the Imperium noticed something wro9ng when Administratum tithes didn't grease the palms of certain high officials, and they looked around for *their* money. A logistical or tax failure doesn't hurt the Imperium much.

There is a lot of truth to that. Imagine this, what is the difference between a stock market crash and any other day in the office. At that point not a single person has lost their job, not a single person has lost their home. We are told it is everything in our society, but nothing if the overlord decided the % loss of the hedge fund managers don't matter. Here bankers matter, if they lose money everyone else has to show for it. Do they matter to the Adeptus Terra, probably not.
Economics is largely based on fiat, somewhere like the Imperium can go a long way by simple acts of denial:
"The economy has collapsed!"
"OK, carry on citizen."
It might sound ridiculous to us, but it isn't ridiculous. Rome was bankrupt and could not pay its soldiers, the barbarians on the other side of the barricade were not getting paid anyway. So one stayed and the other didn't when both were under the same local conditions.
The Imperium only cares about base production, so long as there are warm bodies to conscript and the factories are churning out lasguns, helmets, boots and ration blocks then the planet has not fallen, no matter how much some adept borks the planetary economy. And they can keep this up for centuries...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/03 16:40:11


n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in gb
Preparing the Invasion of Terra






There's a specific example of Macro vs Micro in the Tanith 1st novel The Guns of Tanith.
The Tanith 1st suffer a shortage of Lasgun ammo prior to Operation Larsiel where the Tanith, Urdesh Shocktroops, and Phantine Air Corps are set to liberate the planet Phantine's capital. The Tanith used Lasguns with size 3 clips whereas the Urdesh and Phantine use size 5's but the Munitorum has only supplied size 5 clips, leaving the Tanith with little to no spare ammo. On the micro-scale, this is bad for the Tanith who have no spare ammo. However, there are more Urdesh and Phantine Regiments assigned to liberate the planet so on the macro-scale, the Regiments have the ammo they need.
   
 
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