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Made in us
Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries





So I'm still struggling with the idea of whether including an Agent of the Imperium in an otherwise mono-chapter Space Marine army does or doesn't break that chapter's "Super Doctrine" ability. I would be happier if it didn't, but I can't convince myself that it doesn't, despite the majority opinion I could find seeming to be that it doesn't.

The 9th edition Space Marine Codex Supplements have consistent wording so let me reference those first.

So the parent section of Detachment abilities defines:
A WHATEVER CHAPTER Detachment is one that only includes models with the WHATEVER CHAPTER keyword (excluding models with the AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM or UNALIGNED keywords)


Then the super doctrine rule is a bullet point below that stating:
If every unit in your army (excluding UNALIGNED units) has the WHATEVER CHAPTER keyword, then every unit that has the Combat Doctrines ability and is in a WHATEVER CHAPTER Detachment gains the "Whatever Super Doctrine" ability, below.


So jumping over to War of the Spider/Pariah (I'm going to assume this didn't change in Rising Tide?), there's the rule for including Agents of the Imperium:
... The inclusion of an AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM unit does not prevent other units from their Detachment from benefiting from Detachment abilities (e.g. Chapter Tactics, Defenders of Humanity etc.), and it does not prevent other units from your army benefiting from abilities that require every model in your army to have that ability (e.g. Combat Doctrines).


Okay, so standard Space Marine detachment abilities are fine, because there is an AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM exemption, and the criteria for gaining, for example, Chapter Tactics is a detachment level thing:
ADEPTUS ASTARTES units in ADEPTUS ASTARTES Detachments gain the Chapter Tactics ability.


The second part is where it got a little concerning for me. The Combat Doctrines ability is gained from the Angels of Death ability that pretty much every standard Space Marine unit has with the exception of Servitors.
Angels of Death: This unit has the following abilities, which are described below: And They Shall Know No Fear; Bolter Discipline; Shock Assault; Combat Doctrines.


However, there are conditions for actually benefiting from the ability:
If every unit from your army has the ADEPTUS ASTARTES keyword (excluding AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM and UNALIGNED units), this unit gains a bonus (see below) depending on which combat doctrine is active for your army, as follows:


So again, with the AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM exemption in the 9th edition codex supplements or the above quoted section from War of the Spider/Pariah when paired with an 8th edition codex supplement, things looks fine. Combat Doctrines are still in effect. But then again, that really makes the lack of AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM on the super doctrine rule in 9th edition codex supplements really stand out to me.

The difference I see between Combat Doctrines and the Super Doctrines is that
If every unit in your army (excluding UNALIGNED units) has the WHATEVER CHAPTER keyword
prevents them from ever gaining the Super Doctrine ability when an AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM is included in the detachment. Even though the Space Marines wouldn't be prevented from using the Super Doctrine if they had it, they don't actually ever gain it. I think that's where the disconnect lies between my current line of thought and popular opinion.

Now what I'm hoping is that I'm not quite grasping all the implications of the last sentence of the Agent of the Imperium rule:
An AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM unit included in a Patrol, Battalion or Brigade Detachment in this manner is ignored for any rules that state all units from that Detachment must have at least one Faction keyword in common (e.g. in a matched play game) and when determining your Army Faction.

So this is necessary for battle-forged armies because the AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM and the Space Marines don't have a faction keyword in common except for IMPERIUM and:
All of the units in each Detachment in your Battle-forged army must have at least one Faction keyword in common, and this keyword cannot be CHAOS, IMPERIUM , AELDARI, YNNARI or TYRANIDS, unless the Detachment in question is a Fortification Network


My hope was that somehow, GW wanted to prevent the Vanguard detachment of Assassins (Execution Force rule) from being included and not breaking the Super Doctrines, and that including AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM in the Patrol/Battalion/Brigade detachment got around that, but:
is ignored for any rules that state all units from that Detachment must have at least one Faction keyword in common
is for detachments, not the army like a Super Doctrine's requirements. Honestly, it seems like a stretch even if it was a rule for army keywords and not detachment keywords.

Anyway, I'd love it if someone could explain why my thinking on this is wrong and a super doctrine is still able to be used with an Agent of the Imperium in the army or if you agree and I got to pick one or the other. If there's something from GW that I just couldn't find confirming that the two don't mix, that'd be appreciated too. I just kinda got fixated on this for the past few hours and needed to put this out there.
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

I think it’s fairly clear and widely accepted that Agents don’t stop you benefitting from the rules in question.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries





 JohnnyHell wrote:
I think it’s fairly clear and widely accepted that Agents don’t stop you benefiting from the rules in question.


Okay, so things just got a little weirder. So I assume by your profile, you play Dark Angels, so I was gonna ask how you would get around the "If every unit in your army (except UNALIGNED) has the DARK ANGELS keyword, then every unit in a DARK ANGELS Detachment that has the Combat Doctrines ability gains the Sons of the Lion ability." to actually gain the ability, not just be able to use it if you had it. Then I saw Dark Angels actually have an exemption for AGENTS OF THE IMPERIUM on their super doctrine unlike every other chapter I looked up!

So as a Dark Angels player, I guess the question to ask you is:
1. Do AGENTS OF THE IMPERIUM prevent otherwise eligible Dark Angels units from gaining the "1st Company" and/or "2nd Company" abilities since those rules only have an exemption for UNALIGNED units
and
2. If AGENTS OF THE IMPERIUM don't prevent units from gaining those abilities, why not? What rule allows them to get around that?

To me "gaining" an ability and "benefiting" from an ability aren't the same thing, but maybe that's where I'm getting off track from the majority?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/26 06:04:10


 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

Sorry, I didn’t delve through everything in your post as it’s a tad confusing.

You can’t bung an Assassin in a Deathwing detachment, no. You can have an Assassin via other legal means to include (Vanguard, Strat) and still use the Deathwing’s unique rules provided their Detachment meets their usual criteria.

To directly answer your main puzzle: you quoted the rule yourself: “and it does not prevent other units from your army benefiting from abilities that require every model in your army to have that ability” is a catch-all for “ignore this model when determine Super Doctrine or Detachment buffs”.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/11/26 05:57:59


 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries





Automatically Appended Next Post:
 nolanjurgens wrote:
To me "gaining" an ability and "benefiting" from an ability aren't the same thing, but maybe that's where I'm getting off track from the majority?

I was wrong on this particular point. "Benefiting from" an ability includes both gaining and using that ability. I'm still working through how that interacts with the super doctrine rule, but that's going to have to wait until this evening.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/11/26 16:04:15


 
   
Made in us
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I tried to follow the premise example in the thread stickied in this subforum, but there's a lot of commentary in each premise. I warn you that this is a long and dense read and I tried to organize and word it the best I could.

Question: In 40K 9th Edition, can a Space Wolves army include a Vindicare Assassin in a patrol detachment and still benefit from the Savage Fury ability?

Premise 1: Codex Supplement: Space Wolves, pg. 45. Detachment Abilities
An SPACE WOLVES Detachment is one that only includes models with the SPACE WOLVES keyword (excluding models with the AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM or UNALIGNED keyword).

The Vindicare Assassin is an AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM, so it can be included in a SPACE WOLVES patrol detachment, provided it follows the other rules for its inclusion.

Premise 2: Codex Supplement: Space Wolves, pg. 45. Detachment Abilities
If every unit in your army (excluding UNALIGNED units) has the SPACE WOLVES keyword, then every unit that has the Combat Doctrines ability and is in a SPACE WOLVES Detachment gains the Savage Fury ability, below.

Savage Fury (for any who are familiar with Space Marines, but not necessarily Space Wolves) is the Space Wolves' "Super Doctrine" ability. The Vindicare Assassin is neither a UNALIGNED or SPACE WOLVES unit. So by being part of the army it prevents units with the Combat Doctrines ability in SPACE WOLVES detachments from gaining the Savage Fury ability, according to the two rules listed so far.

Premise 3: War of the Spider, pg. 50. Agent of the Imperium
If your army is Battle-forged, you can include 1 AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM unit in each IMPERIUM (excluding FALLEN) Patrol, Battalion and Brigade Detachment in your army without those units taking up slots in those Detachments.

The Vindicare Assassin is still considered part of the army, it just doesn't take up a slot in a detachment. So it is still preventing units with the Combat Doctrines ability in SPACE WOLVES detachments from gaining the Savage Fury ability, according the three rules list so far.

Premise 4: War of the Spider, pg. 50. Agent of the Imperium
... and it does not prevent other units from your army benefiting from abilities that require every model in your army to have that ability (e.g. Combat Doctrines).

This is the second part of next sentence, but I'm going to address it before for the first part of the sentence. This part of the sentence allowed the Space Marines in an 8th edition army to still benefit from Combat Doctrines, because in 8th edition the Combat Doctrines ability required every unit in the army to also have the Combat Doctrines ability in order to gain the bonus from it, Codex: Space Marines (2019), pg. 109. In 9th edition, Codex: Space Marines (2020), pg. 125, shifts the criteria to gaining the bonus from combat doctrines to every unit having the ADEPTUS ASTARTES keyword, allowing exemptions for an AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM. So in 9th edition this part of the sentence does just seem to be obsolete, at least for Combat Doctrines, and Savage Echoes doesn't require that every unit also has Savage Echoes to gain the bonus, so I would say it's irrelevant.

Codex: Space Marines (2019), pg. 109. Combat Doctrines
If you have a Battle-forged army, units only benefit from this bonus if every unit from your army has the ability (excluding SERVITOR and UNALIGNED units).

Codex Space Marines (2020), pg. 125. Combat Doctrines
If every unit from your army has the ADEPTUS ASTARTES keyword (excluding AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM and UNALIGNED units), this unit gains a bonus (see below)...


Premise 5: War of the Spider, pg. 50. Agent of the Imperium
The inclusion of an AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM unit does not prevent other units from their Detachment from benefiting from Detachment abilities (e.g. Chapter Tactics, Defenders of Humanity etc.)...

The first part of this sentence was necessary in 8th edition because Codex: Space Marines (2019), pg 174, did not give exemptions for Space Marine detachments having AGENT OF THE IMPERIUMunits. It allowed them to benefit from Chaper Tactics and Defenders of Humanity. In the 9th edition Codex: Space Marines (2020), pg. 93, the exemption for an AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM being included in an ADEPTUS ASTARTES detachment is already part of the rule. So this first part of this rule gives a concrete example that "benefiting from" includes both gaining and using an ability. If "benefiting from", didn't include gaining that ability, then the units in the Space Marine detachment in 8th wouldn't have been able to gain the Chapter Tactics or Defenders of Humanity abilities.

Codex: Space Marines (2019), pg. 174. Space Marine Units and Detachments
A Space Marines Detachment is a Detachment that only includes Space Marines units.

Codex Space Marines (2020), pg. 93. Detachment Abilities
An ADEPTUS ASTARTES Detachment is one that only includes models with the ADEPTUS ASTARTES keyword (excluding models with the AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM or UNALIGNED keyword).


Premise 6: Codex: Space Marines (2019), pg. 174. Chapter Tactics
If your army is Battle-forged, units (other than SERVITORS) in a Space Marines Detachment (other than a Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachment) gain the Chapter Tactics ability, so long as every unit in that Detachment is drawn from the same Chapter.

Again when War of the Spider came out, Codex: Space Marines (2019) was the current book and its rules were given as examples in the Agent of the Imperium rule, so it is the most relevant to show how the rule works. The Vindicare Assassin is part of the detachment, but was not intended to receive Chapter Tactics or any other similar detachment abilities from other Imperium codices. The rule quoted on Premise 5 uses the phrase "other units from their Detachment". Knowing the intention based on an explicit example "(e.g. Chapter Tactics", "other units from their detachment" excludes the Agent of the Imperium when determing which units in the detachment benefit from the rule. The chapter tactics ability also has the requirement that every unit in the detachment is from the same chapter, of which an Agent of the Imperium would not be. So this also shows that the Agent of the Imperium is ignored as being part of the detachment for the purpose of determining if additional conditions presented in the detachment ability are met. What is still lacking is if it can be ignored as being part of the army, not just detachment, for determining if additional conditions present in the detachment ability are met. But setting aside that question for the moment, the premises given so far show codex supplements that came out in 8th edition have parity with those that came out in 9th, just 8th edition ones gain their exemptions through the Agent of the Imperium rule and 9th edition ones include keyword exclusions for AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM right in their rules.

Premise 7: Codex Supplement: Dark Angels, pg. 42. Detachment Abilities
If every unit in your army (except AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM or UNALIGNED units) has the DARK ANGELS keyword, then every unit in a DARK ANGELS Detachment that has the Combat Doctrines ability gains the Sons of the Lion ability.

Codex supplements from 9th edition, all benefited from being able to have their rules written with Agents of the Imperium in mind. While the rules for actually including the AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM in the detachment are not part of the codex supplements, each rule and ability takes them into account. Codex Supplement: Dark Angels is unique amongst Space Marine codex supplements published so far, including the new Codex Supplement: Black Templars, in that it gives a keyword exclusion for AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM in its rule that can give its "Super Doctrine" ability, Sons of the Lion, to every unit in a DARK ANGELS Detachment that has the Combat Doctrines ability. It may be worth noting that a DARK ANGELS Detachment is defined in exactly the same way as a SPACE WOLVES Detachment was in Premise 1, except the DARK ANGELS keyword is substituted for every instance of the SPACE WOLVES keyword. So the previous premises have not set any precedent that an AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM can be ignored when determing if every unit in an army has a shared keyword, only when determining if a detachment has a shared keyword. The explicit inclusion of the AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM keyword in the Dark Angels' rule in Premise 7 and the lack of the keyword in the Space Wolves' rule in Premise 2 indicate that Agent of the Imperium rules from War of the Spider do not grant the exemption of units with the AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM keyword from being counted against the gaining of the Savage Fury, or any other "Super Doctrine" abilities; and only by giving the Dark Angels an explicit exemption, may they gain their Sons of the Lion ability, with an Agent of the Imperium included as part of their army.

Conclusion:In 40K 9th Edition, a Space Wolves army cannot include a Vindicare Assassin in a patrol detachment and still benefit from the Savage Fury ability.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/30 01:53:06


 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

War of the Spider, pg. 50. Agent of the Imperium
... and it does not prevent other units from your army benefiting from abilities that require every model in your army to have that ability (e.g. Combat Doctrines).

So an Agent of the Imperium will not interfere with things like Combat Doctrines, Chapter Tactics that require every model in your army to have that ability.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
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 DeathReaper wrote:
War of the Spider, pg. 50. Agent of the Imperium
... and it does not prevent other units from your army benefiting from abilities that require every model in your army to have that ability (e.g. Combat Doctrines).

So an Agent of the Imperium will not interfere with things like Combat Doctrines, Chapter Tactics that require every model in your army to have that ability.


Combat Doctrines used that criteria in 8th edition, I have the rule from Codex: Space Marines (2019) at the end of premise 4. Chapter Tactics doesn't have an army level requirement, it's determined by the detachment.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 nolanjurgens wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
War of the Spider, pg. 50. Agent of the Imperium
... and it does not prevent other units from your army benefiting from abilities that require every model in your army to have that ability (e.g. Combat Doctrines).

So an Agent of the Imperium will not interfere with things like Combat Doctrines, Chapter Tactics that require every model in your army to have that ability.


Combat Doctrines used that criteria in 8th edition, I have the rule from Codex: Space Marines (2019) at the end of premise 4. Chapter Tactics doesn't have an army level requirement, it's determined by the detachment.
Still does not matter, it is fairly clear that agents do not stop the buffs an army would otherwise have. (Clearly the intention, maybe the RAW as well).

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries





 DeathReaper wrote:
Still does not matter, it is fairly clear that agents do not stop the buffs an army would otherwise have. (Clearly the intention, maybe the RAW as well).


I agree that RAW and RAI is that they have Combat Doctrines, Chapter Tactics, Company Command, Objective Secured and various other Detachment Abilities. The only ability that is in question for me is the "Super Doctrine" abilities, with the exception of Dark Angels. Dark Angels have the explicit exemption for AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM in the rule that lets them gain their super doctrine, Sons of the Lion (Premise 7 has the rule quoted). GW balanced it out by putting the restrictions that other Chapters have on gaining their super doctrine on two of their other Detachment Abilities, "1st Company" and "2nd Company". The Dark Angels' rules are what really sold me on that RAI is that Agents of the Imperium will prevent the super doctrine for every other chapter.

1st Company:
If every unit in your army (except UNALIGNED units) has the DARK ANGELS keyword, then DARK ANGELS Vanguard Detachments that only contain models with the DEATHWING and/or INNER CIRCLE keywords gain the 1st Company ability.

2nd Company:
If every unit in your army (except UNALIGNED units) has the DARK ANGELS keyword, then DARK ANGELS Outrider Detachments that only contain models with the RAVENWING keyword gain the 2nd Company ability.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/11/30 02:57:07


 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

1st Company and 2nd Company both say "If every unit in your army..."

So agents do not count for that calculation because of the Agents rules.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in us
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Why don't they count? The only exemptions I can find are not counting them as part of a detachment and them not having the same ability as every other unit in the army (Premises 4 and 5).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/30 03:10:01


 
   
Made in us
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Chicago, IL

 nolanjurgens wrote:
Why don't they count? The only exemptions I can find are not counting them as part of a detachment and them not having the same ability as every other unit in the army (Premises 4 and 5).
They don't count because Agent of the Imperium do not prevent other units from your army benefiting from abilities that require every model in your army to have that ability.

Both 1st Company and 2nd Company say "If every unit in your army..."
   
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1st Company and 2nd Company say "If every unit in your army (except UNALIGNED units) has the DARK ANGELS keyword". "has the DARK ANGELS keyword" is not an ability. Even without an Agent of the Imperium, 1st Company and 2nd Company are not abilities that every unit in the army are going to have. Only the one (or two if you use both abilities) detachment gains the ability. The "... and it does not prevent other units from your army benefiting from abilities that require every model in your army to have that ability (e.g. Combat Doctrines)." rule is not applicable for the 1st Company and 2nd Company abilities.

So another question I have is what are people's thoughts on why the AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM keyword is an exception on the rules that define an ADEPTUS ASTARTES detachment, the rule that define the various chapters' detachments, the Combat Doctrines rule, and the rule for gaining the Sons of the Lion ability, but there's not an exception for the rule for gaining other chapters' super doctrine abilities, and the Dark Angels' "1st Company" and "2nd Company" abilities? When I see those differences, right next to each other on the page, I see intent for there to be a penalty for taking an Agent of the Imperium.

If
The inclusion of an AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM unit does not prevent other units from their Detachment from benefiting from Detachment abilities...
was
The inclusion of an AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM unit does not prevent other units from their army from benefiting from Detachment abilities...
or there was an an exception for the AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM keyword added to the "1st Company", "2nd Company", and other super doctrine abilities, I'd be 100% on board.
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

You are overthinking it.

Bottom line is they don't count because Agent of the Imperium do not prevent other units from your army benefiting from abilities that require every model in your army to have that ability.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
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 DeathReaper wrote:
You are overthinking it.


This we can agree on.
   
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Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

 nolanjurgens wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
You are overthinking it.


This we can agree on.


When you reach this realization, a light touch is best.

To this point, the rules lawyering is impressive. But it goes beyond most standard interpretations.

Feel free to hold whatever interpretation you choose, but play the game with the most common interpretation: the only unit restrictions that apply to the Inquisition are their own.

   
 
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