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Made in ca
Poisonous Kroot Headhunter





I'm not super up to date on Eldar lore (I've only really read the 3 Path books). Is there a lore reason behind this, or did GW just never make one for some other reason? Seems like every other shrine that uses Exarchs has a Phoenix Lord.

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Made in ca
Gargantuan Gargant






 Tawnis wrote:
I'm not super up to date on Eldar lore (I've only really read the 3 Path books). Is there a lore reason behind this, or did GW just never make one for some other reason? Seems like every other shrine that uses Exarchs has a Phoenix Lord.


They do as far as we know, it's just that GW never bothered exploring the name and background of their Phoenix Lord. Also, given that the current roster of Phoenix Lord models, barring Jain Zar, are basically old enough to vote, its not surprising that GW hasn't bothered to touch on the "unknown" Phoenix Lords when the founding ones have barely been given any attention.

Hopefully this changes in the impending Craftworld Eldar update.
   
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Preparing the Invasion of Terra






The founder of the Aspect isn't known and it's believed to have been Lhykosidae, the Wraith Spider, although this was only mentioned in the novel Eldar Prophecy by C.S. Goto.
   
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 Tawnis wrote:
I'm not super up to date on Eldar lore (I've only really read the 3 Path books). Is there a lore reason behind this, or did GW just never make one for some other reason? Seems like every other shrine that uses Exarchs has a Phoenix Lord.


Phoenix Lords were one-and-done in the original Craftworlds write-up. Warp Spiders didn't exist at the time, so they didn't get one.
GW never went back and did the work, and have been insisting on not doing any work on Craftworlds for the last couple decades.

So...

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut






There were a couple of confirmed extra Phoenix Lords added to the background at least: Irillyth, Shade of Twilight; and Drastanta, Tempest of Starlight.
   
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Slaanesh Havoc with Blastmaster






I thought it said in the 2nd edition codex that their Phoenix Lord was lost in the warp?
   
Made in no
Liche Priest Hierophant





Bergen

Crimson hunter Phoenix lord? Shining spear?

   
Made in pt
Inquisitorial Keeper of the Xenobanks






your mind

 Fluid_Fox wrote:
I thought it said in the 2nd edition codex that their Phoenix Lord was lost in the warp?


That explains why there is no armor, though reading up it appears that in Psychic Awakening there is some com snippet from ImpGuard suggesting that Eldar were recovering some armor which might be warp spider armor, special enough to bear rescuing. Will be interesting to see what comes with new releases next year.

   
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Watch Fortress Excalibris

 Gert wrote:
Lhykosidae

*Sigh* Really overdoing it with the clever and totally original naming there, GW...

A little bit of righteous anger now and then is good, actually. Don't trust a person who never gets angry. 
   
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Newcastle, OZ

^^ That was C.S. Goto's writing, that which also gave us backflipping cartwheeling terminators with multilazors.


The Phoenix lords are comprised of Asurmen, who started the aspect path, and ONLY his greatest students (well, except for Karandras, which was one of his better students after Ahra, the fallen scorpion was booted out). Those students went onto start their own aspect shrines.

Anything aspect that came AFTER theirs, can't technically have a "phoenix lord".

The shorthand for why the spiders don't is that their warp jumping thing is risky, and he was probably eaten by daemons or something.

I'm OVER 50 (and so far over everyone's BS, too).
Old enough to know better, young enough to not give a ****.

That is not dead which can eternal lie ...

... and yet, with strange aeons, even death may die.
 
   
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Liche Priest Hierophant





Bergen

It is no problem to retroactively make Phoenix lords and add them to the lore. Look at the fall om mymeria.

Omagine the egg of magu ras face when the crimson hunter Phoenix lord show up in a airplane with lasers. And magu ra chose his gun for fighting from afar. And here the Crimson hunter is entering orbit from space to blow gak up!

   
Made in gb
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon






Background wise, it’s not uncommon for Phoenix Lords to disappear.

I don’t know how well current Eldar lore describes it, but Phoenix Lords, when introduced in 2nd Edition were never exactly living as we might understand it.

I mean, they were, at first. But since then, they’ve become kind of sentient armour. When an Eldar puts on the armour, their spirit, soul and identity become part of the Phoenix Lord, and remain so forevermore.

So when one falls, they only need a new, well, host, to literally take up and wear the mantle.

If memory serves, I think it was Kharandras was lost for millennia before someone found and donned the armour, allowing the gestalt being to walk once more.

I don’t recall their being anything explicitly stating only the original (as in, debuted in Rogue Trader) aspects as having a Phoenix Lord? Nor are the Aspect temples by any means all of the Aspects. The best known and widest spread, sure. But not all by any means.

   
Made in no
Liche Priest Hierophant





Bergen

There are lost and locally lost shrines in the 40k universe. Essentially beeing wiped out or nobody knows they longer exist outside of a very small circle, like a small isolated craft world.

The doom of mymeria (an excelent book) has the Eldar reclaiming a lost Phoenix lord. Eldar show out of nowhere and start attacking. Imperial guard, titans and later space wolves respond and attack. They belive they winn, and indeed they drive out the Eldar. But an inquisitor suspects that the Eldar have indeed reclaimed an old Phoenix lord and thus are victorious. Only to disappear once they have what they want.

Essentially GW can just write aspects and lords in and out of existence. Although I do not think they have written any out, yet. (Depending if drazhar is the original scorpion or not. It could be they later can be written to be two different characters.) There are mentioned aspects that have no rules or models. There is at least one flaming orb aspect.

Phoenix lord Armour work a bit like exarch Armour. They do 'devover' their used I believe.

Link to the forge world Phoenix lord in the bottom. I think the Ynchar army features one Phoenix lord as well, Visarch. (On second read through I see he has different stats. Scrap that. (Obviously the crimson hunter Phoenix lord will be an airplain, and have other stats. Or perhaps a transformers?))

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Irillyth-Phoenix-Lord-of-the-Shadow-Spectres#share

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/12/01 23:32:40


   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




The Shining Spears Phoenix Lord is Drastanta, Tempest of Starlight. His known wargear consists of the Celestial Lance (from Iyanden supplement) and his helm, the Crown of the Seventh Sky (A previous codex mentions how the Shrine of the Swift Kill wear dark azure helms to mimic Drastanta’s helm).

A Crimson Hunter shrine is named Scions of Kuron. That seems to imply that Kuron is the founder of the Crimson Hunters.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Nice catch, Iracundus. I hadn't heard of Kuron. Obviously "Kuron" could just be the shrine's exarch or something, but it's fun to imagine.

Am I right in thinking that the lore has kind of quietly drawn a distinction between phoenix lords and full blown asuryata? With the asuryata being the original batch we've had stats for since 2nd edition who are all part of the prophecy of Rhana Dandra while other phoenix lords, like Irrilyth and Drastanta, are non-asuryata phoenix lords? I sort of had it in my head that "phoenix lord" these days could just refer to any founder of a new, sufficiently divergent aspect (possibly requiring some time training directly under Asurmen) whereas the asuryata were specifically Asurmen and his original 5 students.

But maybe I've just had my headcanon cooking for too long.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/02 05:10:20



ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
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Liche Priest Hierophant





Bergen

The link between headcannon and cannon is much shorter in 40k then other settings. Just run with it!

   
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Fun fact? Phoenix Lords kind of pre-date the 2nd Edition Codex in terms of background.

I was reading my Codex Titanicus the other night, and noted a Titan crew being referred to as Phoenix Lord.

I’ll dig it out again once I’ve wrapped up work, and quote it as it’s a relatively obscure bit of background and I figure others will be interested.

   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





Wyldhunt wrote:
Nice catch, Iracundus. I hadn't heard of Kuron. Obviously "Kuron" could just be the shrine's exarch or something, but it's fun to imagine.

Am I right in thinking that the lore has kind of quietly drawn a distinction between phoenix lords and full blown asuryata? With the asuryata being the original batch we've had stats for since 2nd edition who are all part of the prophecy of Rhana Dandra while other phoenix lords, like Irrilyth and Drastanta, are non-asuryata phoenix lords? I sort of had it in my head that "phoenix lord" these days could just refer to any founder of a new, sufficiently divergent aspect (possibly requiring some time training directly under Asurmen) whereas the asuryata were specifically Asurmen and his original 5 students.

But maybe I've just had my headcanon cooking for too long.


2nd ed says that phoenix lords are ancient exarchs without shrines to tend, wandering the galaxy. Some founded aspects but not all. I've attached grabs from the 2nd ed codex describing this.

The asurya as the shrine founding students of Asurmen comes in 4th ed, which I've also attached.

the theme to me seems to be that an exarch that reaches a kind of enlightenment of the soul can 'ascend' to phoenix lord-dom (like stephen chow in kung fu hustle... or Neo). Karandras kicked out Arha to take on the scorpion mantle, implying he super saiyaned himself somehow to become a phoenix lord.

IMO it's kind of the ultimate expression of an eldar soul's focus on a single thing - it becomes a literal embodiment of that concept or ideal and not even death can stop that soul from being brought back to continue its pure expression of that concept.

This is why I really don't think people appreciate them enough, they're kind of like self actualised daemon princes, taking soul sacrifices to resurrect themselves in the image of the martial concept they completely embody. It's like a khornate daemon prince being the prince of axe combat above all else for example.







[Thumb - phoenix.PNG]

[Thumb - phoenix 2.PNG]

[Thumb - phoenix3.PNG]


   
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Liche Priest Hierophant





Bergen

Aspect Name Phoenix Lord Battlefield Role

Dire Avengers Asurmen, the Hand of Asuryan General Combat

Howling Banshees Jain Zar, the Storm of Silence Melee Combat

Striking Scorpions Karandras, the Shadow Hunter Melee Combat, Stealth

Dark Reapers Maugan Ra, the Harvester of Souls Long-Ranged Fire Support

Fire Dragons Fuegan, the Burning Lance Anti-Armour, Anti-Structure role

Swooping Hawks Baharroth, the Cry of the Wind Airborne Infantry

Warp Spiders Unknown Hit-and-Run Attacks

Shining Spears Drastanta, the Tempest of Starlight Hit-and-Run Attacks

Crimson Hunters Unknown Air Superiority, Combat Pilots

Eagle Pilot Amon Harakht Asuryani Fighter Pilots

Crystal Dragons Unknown Unknown

Slicing Orbs of Zandros Unknown Unknown

Shadow Spectres Irillyth, the Shade of Twilight Anti-Armour

Ebon Talons Unknown Unknown

The list has some that have been name dropped only. Also, I am unsure who wrote down the battlefield role section.

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Aspect_Warriors

   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Shadow Spectres Irillyth, the Shade of Twilight Anti-Armour

I think you could reasonably argue that the shadow spectres role is a bit outdated here. When they were first intorduced, they had a mechanic that let you combine their shots into a single attack that gained range and power the more spectres contributed. So they were sort of like jetpack dark reapers. Over time, their ability to handle tanks has diminished, and their ability to handle heavy infantry and hordes has increased.

@Hellebore:
Yeah. You and I have talked phoenix lords in the past. I suspect we're getting a model refresh with our next codex, and I'd love for them to overhaul the phoenix lords while they're at it. Something comparable to a daemon prince (with a points cost to match) would be a decent fit.


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in gb
Incorporating Wet-Blending




U.k

For me Phoenix lords are just more special characters. I didn’t like them in 2nd edition and I’m no keener now.
   
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Regular Dakkanaut





Karandras wasn't a student of Asurmen, he was in fact a student of Arhra.

Arhra now uses a very fake name, Drazhar, meaning "living-sword". Haven't heard of him since JZ slew him and an incubi klaivex took his helmet, put it on, and gets absorbed (so yeah, he's probably back for round 3).
   
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Voss wrote:
 Tawnis wrote:
I'm not super up to date on Eldar lore (I've only really read the 3 Path books). Is there a lore reason behind this, or did GW just never make one for some other reason? Seems like every other shrine that uses Exarchs has a Phoenix Lord.


Phoenix Lords were one-and-done in the original Craftworlds write-up. Warp Spiders didn't exist at the time, so they didn't get one.
GW never went back and did the work, and have been insisting on not doing any work on Craftworlds for the last couple decades.

So...


Yep was going to say, this was the practical reason.

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If GW doesn't do a Warp Spider PL, they're going to lose out to Artel and Wargames of Exclusive, both of whom have created pretty exquisite models to represent one.
   
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PenitentJake wrote:
If GW doesn't do a Warp Spider PL, they're going to lose out to Artel and Wargames of Exclusive, both of whom have created pretty exquisite models to represent one.

If they don't create a WS PL, those remain as just being pretty Exarchs.

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...

tneva82 wrote:
You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something... 
   
 
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