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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Hi all,

Finally getting to grips with the kill team 21 system. Quite liking most of it but still not sold on the shooting/obscured/cover mechanics. Am I wrong in thinking any attacks just basically auto delete whatever you shoot at? Damage dealt seems a lot greater than the ability to absorb. As such, I Still find myself liking some of the old kill team rules though.

Has anyone ever run hybrid Games?

As in, keep about 90% of kill team 21, but replace the cover/obscured with the following:

-1 to hit modifiers for long range
-1 to hit modifiers if someone is obscured by terrain

If someone is using 'conceal' instead of 'engage' treat this either as +1 to saves when in cover, or damage reduction to whatever hits are received.

Thoughts?

I did some math and ill be the one bringing the 'armies' for out group. I can bring:

Marines (intercessors, assault intercessors, infiltrators, reivers, tacticals, scouts)
Chaos (csm and cultists)
Death guard (plague marines and zombies)
Guard (krieg and kasrkin stormtroopers)
Tau (fire warriors, pathfinders, drones and stealthsuits).

And for the record its not a competitive meta.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/12/03 16:01:31


greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in fi
Longtime Dakkanaut






Well, it's modern skirmish with firearms. People out in the open die when shot at with machine guns, that's why the name of the game is advancing under cover. On the other hand, things that are sturdier than normal humans (orks, marines, tyranid warriors etc.) feel pretty resistant to small arms. I haven't really been afraid of losing too many troopers to basic guns, which of course happens a well, but of the baiting game with bigger toys.

That said, I wouldn't mind playing with more modifiers either if the group felt like it, but do note that it will likely affect the balance of already sturdier teams that can then take advantage of this added resilience and annihilate the weaker foe up close. Chaos marines in particular can be very aggressive if you let them walk to your face.

#ConvertEverything blog with loyalist Death Guard in true and Epic scales. Also Titans and killer robots! C&C welcome.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/717557.page

Do you like narrative gaming? Ongoing Imp vs. PDF rebellion campaign reports here:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/786958.page

 
   
Made in us
Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!






KT21 isn't "40K lite" anymore. I feel like you are trying too hard to keep holding on to your old expectations of how the game used to play. You're not going to have much success in KT21 if you are going to keep on playing it like it was KT18.

The conceal/engage paradigm in KT21 is CRUCIAL to the way the game plays now. The best way to survive is by not presenting a valid target to the enemy in the first place. Now, your most important decisions in the game are selecting the right order for the right operative at the right time, followed by mastering the order in which to activate your models.

Trust me, there is a vast difference in tactical depth between KT18 & KT21. I recommend you get well aquiainted with the differences before you start throwing +1/-1 modifiers around. KT21 uses a dice pool paradigm, KT18 didn't; therefore a similar mindset into using modifiers will not yield comparable results IMHO. Where KT18 spammed +1/-1 modifiers to the dice rolls, KT21 modifies the actual amount(s) of dice in the pool instead in many cases.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/12/04 10:38:08


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




I'm actually not looking for it to be 40k-lite taoist. I have limited interest in a mass battle game. my foray into kill team 18 is also limited.

If anything my take on skirmish games is this:
Once upon a time, i loved corvus bells infinity. Over time this changed. Too many modifiers, too much rummaging in books, it just felt way too complex for what I wanted. Couple of years ago I played gw's warcry and fell in love again. Zimple and elegant. I said to myself if I could have something like this for my sci-fi I'd be sorted...

Honestly the reveals for kt21 had me excited in ways I can't describe. I felt it could have been the game I've been waiting for.

I guess coming from a stint playing bolt action I'm used to modifiers right now. I also felt at first glance reading the rules that with kt21 shooting with 2 actions, even with lasguns will put down anything in the game. I have issued with games where the beat tactic is 'camp' in a bunker and lay down fire. I prefer a mobile game. Hence the query if its too much and if other approaches might serve better.

I'm happy to be incorrect here. If you have experience at it and feel kt21 works well as is, ill happily accept the input - so thank you.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/05 12:40:51


greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in us
Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!






Deadnight wrote:
I'm actually not looking for it to be 40k-lite taoist. I have limited interest in a mass battle game. my foray into kill team 18 is also limited.

If anything my take on skirmish games is this:
Once upon a time, i loved corvus bells infinity. Over time this changed. Too many modifiers, too much rummaging in books, it just felt way too complex for what I wanted. Couple of years ago I played gw's warcry and fell in love again. Zimple and elegant. I said to myself if I could have something like this for my sci-fi I'd be sorted...

Honestly the reveals for kt21 had me excited in ways I can't describe. I felt it could have been the game I've been waiting for.

I guess coming from a stint playing bolt action I'm used to modifiers right now. I also felt at first glance reading the rules that with kt21 shooting with 2 actions, even with lasguns will put down anything in the game. I have issued with games where the beat tactic is 'camp' in a bunker and lay down fire. I prefer a mobile game. Hence the query if its too much and if other approaches might serve better.

I'm happy to be incorrect here. If you have experience at it and feel kt21 works well as is, ill happily accept the input - so thank you.


I admit never having played bolt action nor infinity, so don't know how they compare. Not saying KT21 is perfect either, but I personally consider it a big step up from KT18.

Lethality in KT21 is high, but like I said, the idea is to stay concealed / out of harms way as much as possible, until you are in a good position to attack with several operatives synergistically. A good turning point can pretty much dictate the outcome of the game; this takes a lot of planning ahead and some love from the dice gods (however less than in KT18 or 40K I feel). ATM I'm loving the challenge. There's also only 4 turning points in a regular game, if lethality was much lower and one could still conceal, you'd run out of time fast..

I recommend playing more games (against varying factions) before piling in the house rules, but "you do you"

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/12/05 23:31:53


 
   
Made in fi
Longtime Dakkanaut






You cannot repeat actions without special rules and no, lasguns will not put things bigger than humans down in any reliable fashion. The time limits and mission objectives mean any camping strategies pretty much immediately lose the game.

KT21 is a game of sneaky approaches that explodes into violent action, a snapshot of a battle that doesn't last over a few minutes.

#ConvertEverything blog with loyalist Death Guard in true and Epic scales. Also Titans and killer robots! C&C welcome.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/717557.page

Do you like narrative gaming? Ongoing Imp vs. PDF rebellion campaign reports here:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/786958.page

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




tauist wrote:

I admit never having played bolt action nor infinity, so don't know how they compare. Not saying KT21 is perfect either, but I personally consider it a big step up from KT18.


You should try bolt action. In some ways it's the best version of warhammer gw never wrote. :p simple, elegant and quite intuitive.

Infinity was, once upon a time my 'other' game, back when I played warmachine and loved combos and complexity. And then I grew older and what I wanted out of games changed. Last time I played it, spent all my time with my head in a book reading how to play instead of, how know, playing. They still have some of the greatest metals in the industry but the game sadly is not for me any more.

'Big step up' sounds good though. Like I said, on paper at least, kt21 should be everything I want in a skirmish game.

And I don't mind if kt21 isn't perfect. No game is. All ttgs have rough edges and I'm long enough in the tooth to be OK with that.

tauist wrote:
Lethality in KT21 is high, but like I said, the idea is to stay concealed / out of harms way as much as possible, until you are in a good position to attack with several operatives synergistically. A good turning point can pretty much dictate the outcome of the game; this takes a lot of planning ahead and some love from the dice gods (however less than in KT18 or 40K I feel). ATM I'm loving the challenge. There's also only 4 turning points in a regular game, if lethality was much lower and one could still conceal, you'd run out of time fast..


This sounds OK to me. What bothered me more was the notion of being able to camp and delete. Not the game I wanted.


tauist wrote:
I recommend playing more games (against varying factions) before piling in the house rules, but "you do you"


I've not played ^any^ games yet- we were finishing up our stint of bolt action and moving onto historicals next I think but hopefully after that we can do q Sci fi skirmish.

Honestly - what you and sherry have said has in
a lot of ways put my mind at ease - I do appreciate your thoughts.


Sherrypie wrote:You cannot repeat actions without special rules and no, lasguns will not put things bigger than humans down in any reliable fashion. The time limits and mission objectives mean any camping strategies pretty much immediately lose the game.

KT21 is a game of sneaky approaches that explodes into violent action, a snapshot of a battle that doesn't last over a few minutes.


Oh for the love of gork and mork. Are you serious? This absolutely changes things. Is there a page reference?

Can't believe I missed that little nugget - thank you.

Honestly this isn't the first time with the layout/presentation of the rules that I've missed something or things haven't been clear. Gw writing, eh?

Having read thr cover/obscured thing it makes a bit more sense bit they really should have stuck with 1",3" 6" rather than geometric shapes!

greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in fi
Longtime Dakkanaut






Page 60, second paragraph.

"Unless otherwise specified, an operative cannot perform the same action more than once during its activation."

#ConvertEverything blog with loyalist Death Guard in true and Epic scales. Also Titans and killer robots! C&C welcome.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/717557.page

Do you like narrative gaming? Ongoing Imp vs. PDF rebellion campaign reports here:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/786958.page

 
   
Made in us
Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!






Yeah, only a few factions (Marines, Custodes to name a few) can even potentially shoot or fight twice in a single activation, and even then you need to spend CP to gain access to such an ability for the duration of a turning point.

Camping and shooting is impossible as well. If you are concealed behind cover, you cannot shoot, and if you are engaged so as to shoot others, you can be shot back, unless your operative happens to have a weapon with the "Silent" ability.

Just get a few games in man! You wont grasp the details just by skimming the rules

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/12/07 09:45:00


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 tauist wrote:


Just get a few games in man! You wont grasp the details just by skimming the rules



It's on my list I promise! Need to get the terrain painted and I'll be away.

Honestly thanks for your input guys - you've put my worries to rest in a big way

greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
 
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