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 Mistresspaige wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Could you give an example of the gatekeeping you've experienced?

Sure Thing. One example I’ve had is treating me with kid gloves. Many think I don’t know much and need everything pointed out too me when I played. Another is they go really easy on me. Or on the other hand I’ve won a game and the guy gets upset saying he let me win or you just got lucky.

I’ve also had examples where I try to add my thoughts to a conversation and are just blatantly ignored for the other guys instead. Or that my opinions arnt worth their time.

Worse was one guy who was constantly eyeing me with anger and hostility.He never said anything straight to my face but I could tell he didn’t want me there. That I wasn’t welcome.

I agree with the others, the first examples of explaining the game a lot and going easy on you have nothing to do with you being a woman and more to do with you being new to the game. They are common methods that people use to try and ease people into the game. You can resolve this during the pre-game phase simply by saying something along the lines of "hey lets go all out against each other, play your best etc.." Ergo make it clear to your opponent that you are after a "serious" game without any kid gloves or such. Being clear during the game setup can often avoid a lot of issues that can arise like this and establishes very clearly between all players in the game what the intentions are.

Sure you might still have to remind them to not remind you about things in a friendly way, but otherwise it might well encourage them to take the kid gloves off.


The next point on being a sore loser is just someone being a sore loser. It happens. It has nothing to do with you being a woman, people like that are just like that. It's a maturity thing and some are just more mature than others. As you get settled within the group you'll establish who are sore losers, poor winners, good players, etc.... You'll work out what quirks different people have and which ones are fun to play against and which ones are ok and which ones might give a good game but are a pain if they win and which ones are just best avoided for whatever reason.


The hostile guy is hard, some people have "resting angry face" or "resting serious face" and can appear really miserable without intending it. It's just how they look and sometimes how they act. Sometimes you've just got to shrug off the "evil looks" and move on; focus on the good parts of the evening and those who you do get along with.



Much of this sounds like just being new to any social group. Even as a guy you get ignored at times or people give you odd looks and such. These things happen and it does make things uncomfortable and can make it tricky. Often as not time and simply interacting more breaks down those barriers. Like I said earlier, one issue is that many game groups aren't always the most socially experienced. Many times they don't have someone who is the "welcomer" who welcomes people to the group and helps them settle in. So no one really has that awareness to ease things and make it better for newbies. It's a reason many game groups can have problems recruiting new people. Heck if you stick at it perhaps one day you'll be the one welcoming new people; making them feel comfortable with the group, helping them settle in, giving them demo games and more.

FWIW I hands down go easy on anyone that's new to the game and they are playing an intro game. I will self sabotage to increase likely hood of winning (bring weaker lists primarily)

My reasons for doing this is: Winning feels good. People like winning.
I want them to enjoy themselves and come back and enjoy the hobby.

I admit I might over explain stuff but it depends on what the player is showing me in terms of knowledge they already have.. If they know nothing at all, I will probably explain stuff in copious details and coach them on go and show them how to do better and explain mistakes.. Or if they already know how to play, or claim they know how to play/ don't really like being taught I will just shut up and let them get on with it for the most part.

The forum is divided on this but I personally don't think that's a woman specific thing.. its a new player/ new group thing but thats just my take and every situation will be different.

All of those things you mentioned are what any new players will experiance 99% of the time regardless of gender IMO. Unless you are really lucky and manage to find a chill group without any social akwardness/wierdness.

It might be bit more of awkward if you come across someone extra socialy akward around a woman (the odds are probably positive on this)

I echo other peoples suggestions - Play how you wanna play and certainly don't pay attention to gakky people. Every community tends to have one or two gakky people sadly. Sore losers, know it alls, the people that will tell you how you should play your army etc. You will have to identify the people you don't like to play with and simply don't play/interact with them, and find your own peers who you gel with. Unfortunately there is no way of know until you're in the mix of things.

Hope you find enjoyment in the hobby and wish you many victories in the battles to come!

ccs wrote:
So: "Welcome to the hobby, just don't play the same game I do."?

More like the usual "Welcome to the hobby, GW bad".

Youre doing nothing wrong. You don't necessarily need to change.

Could just be social awkwardness on their part, especially around girls. Without being cheeky you might just be the equivalent of a unicorn walking through the door.

We're nerds. :p most of us fell towards the 'less than popular' side of the social spectrum and being honest, Im pretty sure 'I don't have a lot of experience talking to, or dealing with girls' is far from an uncommon experience. Que the usual shyness, awkwardness and maybe a bit of cringe. Unfortunately there might be some hostility or creeping from some corners. Pretty sure most girls experience this and it needs to be called out. Come in with a friend if you need to or stay away altogether if your creep-radar is tingling. You're not wrong.

Familiarity helps. If you're 'one of them' the issues lessen hugely. Right now you're still a unicorn. Keep doing you, reach out if they seem decent but you don't need to xhange you to fit in.

For what it's worth, try and find a gaming space with other girls there rather than a dudefest. Girls make other girls feel welcome in my experience.

As a general rule, consider a slightly adjusted Hanlon's razor: Don't attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by inability. Some people just can't deal with members of the opposing sex very well and react in a defensive manner when they are confronted with their inability in a context they had deemed "safe".
Try to accommodate them a bit for the first couple of sessions so they understand that you are just another 40k enthusiast and not some weird alien entity trying to disrupt their favourite hobby.

Open hostility should be called out to whomever is responsible, though. If you are engaging with a new community in good faith and there is this one guy who just doesn't want a woman around, it's them that needs to adjust.

This isn't a sex problem.

Nerds are insular and male or female it'll take time for close groups to open up to new people.

Let's be honest most warhammer players are on the autistic scale to one degree of another, which comes with the associated social issues.

nah, woman are more than welcomed in this hobby, me my wife and a buddy with his girlfriend were all playing battletech just last night, most of the people in the room at the time were woman and a single trans person was there too.

The other FLGS just up the road has nearly a 50/50 split of men and woman with a lot of families going in with their kids to play board games.

This is indicative of what I have seen having travelled the globe playing this game and others, hundreds of FLGS and GW stores in multiple nations across multiple nations.

You are welcome here and in the community.

However that being said, there is a sad need to gatekeep the bad actors who spread their "toxic" nonsense all over the community, that kind of gatekeeping is both necessary and needed unfortunately and perhaps it is this you are seeing around?

hobojebus wrote:
This isn't a sex problem.

Nerds are insular and male or female it'll take time for close groups to open up to new people.

Let's be honest most warhammer players are on the autistic scale to one degree of another, which comes with the associated social issues.

Exactly this.

One very important thing to be aware of - people on the spectrum often have limited facial expressions or no expressions except extreme ones at all. For a person who is not accustomed with this phenomenon it will look like they are always grumpy or angry.

Another thing - people on a spectrum have a very different approach to friendships and they can become jealous only because they foresee the potential loss of hard earned friends. Tthis may have no basis at all but thay may act hostile towards potential competitor.

And as many in this thread wrote - much of those "gatekeepers" (I really hate this term) are completely oblivious to your gender and you would be treated exactly the same if you were a male "newbie".

While it is certainly possible that some of the gate keeping isn't malicious sexism, there are a lot of people chiming in that it absolutely isn't.

I think as we continue to discuss this, it's important to remember that we weren't there and OP was. So while we can hypothesize that it MAY not have been sexism/ gate keeping/ malice (which I myself have done), none of us can really say for sure that it wasn't either, because none of us were there.

I see it as practical.

The majority of us have positive experiences in game groups and yet have had times where we've gone to new groups and experienced many of the same things the OP has experienced. This suggests such behaviour is more common in general and isn't linked to sexism but to other factors. Or that any sexism that is a part of the behaviour is a lesser/minor element of that behaviour.


Furthermore its very hard to advise any further when we don't know the group and only know one side of the story. It's healthier to take a more positive approach than to jump down the "its sexism" angle. Especially as dealing with sexism is very hard when a person is totally new to both the hobby and a group. Where general "in jokes" and other social awkwardness and such can be miss-interpreted very easily.


In short the OP still has to make choices of her own as to if she continues with the group she's found; finds a new group; founds a group of her own or even moves onto another hobby. The best we can do is relate our own experiences and impressions and also provide support.

PenitentJake wrote:
While it is certainly possible that some of the gate keeping isn't malicious sexism, there are a lot of people chiming in that it absolutely isn't.

I think as we continue to discuss this, it's important to remember that we weren't there and OP was. So while we can hypothesize that it MAY not have been sexism/ gate keeping/ malice (which I myself have done), none of us can really say for sure that it wasn't either, because none of us were there.

Absolutely, but the OP is not immune to drawing the wrong conclusions either, so it is important to mention it. From my personal experience, it's rather unlikely to face open hostility across several gaming groups just for being female, but then again it may be a local/regional thing if that is indeed what transpired.

One other thing to be aware of in the specific 40k context is "factionism". We all know how "entitled" some factions players can behave, and how meta unbalance and lore animosities can spill onto relations between players.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Is it though? Or is it just the ones that do play get the most signal? I play D&D with one girl, but in all the hobby stores I've been to across my state I've almost never encountered a young girl or a grown woman. I see pictures from events and tournaments and they're either not present, or stick out as one among dozens and dozens.

So, again, has it really flourished, or is the spotlight just being shone upon them thereby making the perception seem that there are so many more of them?

I'm the only dude in my current group.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BertBert wrote:

PenitentJake wrote:
While it is certainly possible that some of the gate keeping isn't malicious sexism, there are a lot of people chiming in that it absolutely isn't.

I think as we continue to discuss this, it's important to remember that we weren't there and OP was. So while we can hypothesize that it MAY not have been sexism/ gate keeping/ malice (which I myself have done), none of us can really say for sure that it wasn't either, because none of us were there.

Absolutely, but the OP is not immune to drawing the wrong conclusions either, so it is important to mention it.

A lot. Often. In fact, it's really very important that it be about 75% of the responses to any person mentioning that they experience some kind of gatekeeping or negative experiences stemming from their personal state of being.

I think 40k can be a real tough hobby for women, so I certainly don’t doubt the OPs experiences or interpretations therof. OTOH, some gaming groups do treat all newcomers with some suspicion. It’s harder for women in many cases, but even to dudes, some groups are insular. That said, I think it’s pretty safe to say that even those groups that are somehow offputting to everybody can kick it up a notch around women.

That all said, how to best handle it probably comes down to your own personality. You may want to speak directly with however seems the most accepting (and/or the “alpha”, if they’re not the sane guy). Sometimes just letting people know they aren’t as subtle as they think works. Alternatively, you can just ignore it and give it time. Unless they’re massive pricks, they’ll just get used to it. Finally, you can ask around, see if there are other groups or people that look to game. A lot of stores have discord channels or Facebook groups, and often the core group on 40k night is a small fraction of the people who play.

The final key, and this applies to anybody trying to break into a new gaming group, is that you need to have clear expectations. It’d be great if you met a great group of people and became lifelong friends, but to start you just want to play some games. If you’re getting in games, and having fun, you’re doing all right.

Well there are multiple online group, I use them for info and aren't 'involved' in them, instead always going to physical clubs.

Are there many clubs near you?

In general female colleagues (who are professional wargamers) find board and counter wargame groups (as opposed to boardgame groups), incredibly sexist and often uncomfortable. During the Trump years the main facebook groups became piles of flaming rubbish with the amount of touchy men suddenly feeling validated.

The model wargame groups vary massively. But I think you will certainly find a higher proportion of 'odd' groups than you would with mainstream hobbies like running.

For historical groups the attitudes in the UK are generally relieved someone wants a game but quite snobbish about the historical knowledge and discussions that inevitably surround each game.

For the 40k/GW ones age seems to play a factor, with very young male groups being often muppets and while some with more 30/40+ members (who typically have their own kids now) can be more mature you will still come across individuals who have no bloody idea how to behave around a person of the opposite gender. Two people in recent months when I have brought friends along to play a game have said comments that made my skin crawl never mind the guests, and they had genuinely no idea why what they were saying would be considered questionable, or that they were actively leering.

So people are people, and gaming has an odd collection, but it can be navigated like any social setting.

I'm the creator/current manager of my town's local AoS Group. I've helped dozens of people get in to their army, help build up their lists, and play against them for their first games, often knowing their army well enough to guide them through a game, even if I don't play that army.

And I've done tutorial matches for people over twice my age and under half my age, and no matter what, if they're ex-40k and Warmahordes tournament players, complete newbs who haven't touched dice, or anything in between, it's good to ask what sort of tutorial match they want. Do they want education through pain, or a slow learn to get a look inside someone's head as they're playing, explaining the thoughts and all the rules as things go?

Different people learn differently, and community ambassadors ought to remember this... but not everyone has to be one. Sometimes, new players run in to an experienced player who just wants to game, and they match up. Maybe they don't have the tact to ask the important questions, before they start explaining in-depth how to play the game if it's not wanted. So, without knowing the full context, it's hard to say if over-explaining a complicated (through sheer number of t h i n g s) game was rooted in sexism.

Above is just my experience as a community ambassador, who hasn't had any ladies interested in joining thus far. So, limited experience in that regard.

I hope you find a group that welcomes you, and wish you some happy wargaming.

It's deliciously ironic that a woman discussing how a gaming group she tried to integrate with made her feel uncomfortable as a woman and half of dakka feels the need to explain how she is misinterpreting the situation she personally was in...

It's a bit of a call back to the female space marine thread where a bunch of men felt the need to explain women's experience in the hobby, even after being told by actual women of their own experiences. The same tired lesson needs to be dragged from that thread: stop telling women what they are experiencing and listen to them.

What a healthy attitude. She came in, asking for advice. Several posters explain that explaining the game to people who profess to be new is normal. And this is now a problem?

Should the whole thread just be "yep that's a sexism, we're all sexist sexists over here"

macluvin wrote:
It's deliciously ironic that a woman discussing how a gaming group she tried to integrate with made her feel uncomfortable as a woman and half of dakka feels the need to explain how she is misinterpreting the situation she personally was in...

It's a bit of a call back to the female space marine thread where a bunch of men felt the need to explain women's experience in the hobby, even after being told by actual women of their own experiences. The same tired lesson needs to be dragged from that thread: stop telling women what they are experiencing and listen to them.

I get the optics of it, and I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong as we can't know what other people are thinking, but the first thing I thought was "what was it like when I first got into the hobby." It wasn't anything to do with man/women, but I remember much the same experience being a new person in the group of socially awkward people. Being talked down to or gone easy on because I was a newb, vets getting salty when I beat them and chalking it up to luck, (someone literally tried to flip a table on me in rage when I beat them as a new player once), not being able to get in on the conversations about the hobby because they didn't trust the opinion of the new guy. The only thing she said that I never experienced was that one person giving her the stink eye, I never had to deal with that BS. Did you ever stop to consider that people aren't treating her as "a woman" and just as a person whom they recall sharing a similar experience with?

As for the advise to give to the OP:

In regards to what others have said: It's hard being the "new kid on the block", sometimes it's just that regardless of gender, and sometimes it's not; I'm in no position to say and you should trust your feelings on the matter. At the end of the day, you should be having fun and if you're not, you should find a group that accepts you.

For the original question: From my experience a lot of gamers are some level of both socially awkward and set in their ways, not a very good combination for acceptance of something outside the norm. Sometimes it's unintentional, and sometimes they are dicks. I'm not that great at reading social ques myself, so it took me a long time to suss out who was who in my playgroup (though I assume by default you are much better at this than I). Regardless, you shouldn't have to change to accommodate their issues, if the group you are in doesn't feel welcoming, you should find a group that it. I know it's an unfair pain in the ass, but it is much easier than trying to change the views of a bunch of people that either don't think they have to change or don't want to change. I know a fair few groups in my city and some of them have been really accommodating to new female players (my local league of 34 has two woman that have been doing quite well), some other groups however... really don't treat women well, sadly sometimes it's just trail and error to find the right fit. It shouldn't have to be, but that's sadly the world we live in.

I sincerely hope you find a welcoming place to play that accepts you as you are, if there is one thing I think the hobby needs that GW can't provide, it's fresh voices and ideas. Best of luck.

No. Denying her experience is one of those attitudes that is probably making her feel uncomfortable. It is quite possible that there is a reason why she was the only girl in that venue with a 40k army and based on the successful integration of women into virtually every other corner of nerd culture, I find it more probable that the issue comes from the people in that venue. It could very well be on account of implicit biases, which is why I stated that direct language pointing out the behaviors she doesn’t enjoy is important. Implicit biases are subconscious processes that can create discrimination. Most discrimination occurs not by racists sexists (insert any other applicable -ist here) but by people that genuinely believe they are anything but. I do find it troubling that there is a pattern of denying and rewriting the experience of women to fit men’s experience on this forum however, but this is also a psychological trend that naturally occurs.

macluvin wrote:
No. Denying her experience is one of those attitudes that is probably making her feel uncomfortable. It is quite possible that there is a reason why she was the only girl in that venue with a 40k army and based on the successful integration of women into virtually every other corner of nerd culture, I find it more probable that the issue comes from the people in that venue. It could very well be on account of implicit biases, which is why I stated that direct language pointing out the behaviors she doesn’t enjoy is important. Implicit biases are subconscious processes that can create discrimination. Most discrimination occurs not by racists sexists (insert any other applicable -ist here) but by people that genuinely believe they are anything but. I do find it troubling that there is a pattern of denying and rewriting the experience of women to fit men’s experience on this forum however, but this is also a psychological trend that naturally occurs.

So then whats the answer?
Appear hostile to her by grinding her into the ground or handle her with kid gloves (which is standard for playing with new players in general) which I guess is sexist because shes a woman?

Again, its more likely a variation of Hanlon's razor than it is that the venue is fully of misogynists.

macluvin wrote:
No. Denying her experience is one of those attitudes that is probably making her feel uncomfortable. It is quite possible that there is a reason why she was the only girl in that venue with a 40k army and based on the successful integration of women into virtually every other corner of nerd culture, I find it more probable that the issue comes from the people in that venue. It could very well be on account of implicit biases, which is why I stated that direct language pointing out the behaviors she doesn’t enjoy is important. Implicit biases are subconscious processes that can create discrimination. Most discrimination occurs not by racists sexists (insert any other applicable -ist here) but by people that genuinely believe they are anything but. I do find it troubling that there is a pattern of denying and rewriting the experience of women to fit men’s experience on this forum however, but this is also a psychological trend that naturally occurs.

Once again, not saying that you're wrong, but I am also certainly not denying her experience. However, people, regardless of race, gender, religion, ect... as part of human nature will fill in the blanks of given situations with their assumptions by default and believe those assumptions to be true (this has been studied in phycology, go look it up if you don't believe me). Sometimes those assumptions are completely correct (sadly this kind of sexist BS happens a lot), but sometimes they are not and are just misunderstandings.

The point I was making was about your assumption that the people here on Dakka were saying what they said because she was a woman. If a man had made this post and it had nothing to do with a gender issue, I could see many of these people saying nearly the exact same thing. So, should we be treating the situation differently because she's a woman? Doesn't that in and of itself imply a gender bias? Don't you think it's natural for a bunch of (as clearly defined in this thread) socially awkward guys, to not feel like they can really weigh in on the gender issue (especially having not been present for any of the situations in question) and focus on the parts of the issue that they can relate to?

To the OP, that all sounds right, yeah. Gamers tend to talk down to anyone new (unless maybe it's immediately clear that they're well-versed), and I have two family who, despite being gamers, don't go to gaming venues because of those attitudes in general and specifically coming out in sexist assumptions (neither are avid gamers but they both definitely know their business), but as a man I've definitely had my share of experiences where I've felt unwelcome in a community of regulars.

Familiarizing yourself with gaming vernacular and broader attitudes would I imagine definitely help, but there's still the issue of sexism. I don't think it's something you can fix within a given community, nor is it something you should feel obligated to try to fix, since it's your hobby and presumably you'd foremost like to have fun with it. Gaming groups often shift, so I wouldn't emphasize trying to change the group, but to find a better environment as that will determine incoming players' attitudes to a degree. I would try to find the most open/progressive store you can find (those which emphasize board games tend in my experience to be less insular and male-dominated). If that's not an option (and here I want to emphasize that no, I'm not saying there are bad environments but mostly things are good, I'm saying there are increasing numbers of good environments but they're still in the minority so it's a real possibility it isn't an option in your area), I would try to try to organize something with friends.

So basically, regarding the initial question, a little show your familiarity, but mostly no, in the current state, unless it's something you really want to work for, no, you should try to find a better community.

macluvin wrote:
No. Denying her experience is one of those attitudes that is probably making her feel uncomfortable.

Let's stick to the examples:

1. People went easy on her, letting her win on purpose
Categorizing this as gatekeeping is likely a wrong conclusion. Tying it to her sex alone may also be one, since new players are often treated with kid's gloves regardless of sex/gender. Yes, some men tend to go particularly easy on women for various reasons, but that doesn't imply malicious intent.
Casting this in a negative light at all seems unwarranted, as it is generally good practice to ease people into a new game instead of crushing them. People get discouraged by a bad demo game all the time.

2. People ignored or disregarded her contribution to a conversation (about the game?)
This one is definitely worth closer scrutiny, and it's an expected reaction in the context of 40k. Is it necessarily sexist? No. Could it be? Definitely. Could it be people ignoring a newcomer's input for something they consider themselves to be more competent in? Also possible. Did they flat out ignore her? Red flag, stop engaging with said individuals, not her fault.

3. People eying her with anger, making it clear they didn't want her there
Likely sexist in nature, possibly just anti-social in general or with social impairment unrelated to sex/gender due to a disorder. If it's just an isolated case within a group, give it a shot and see how it goes. Open hostility might prompt a reaction by the person in charge or that individual just needs some time to warm up to new people.

I don't believe doing the above is disregarding her experiences, but trying to contextualize them. The thread started with the premise that what she experienced was a manifestation of gatekeeping against women, which could be the wrong conclusion in some cases. Reading different perspectives on these situations should help her getting into new groups going forward. And I believe that was the reason for asking about it in the first place.

 BertBert wrote:

I don't believe doing the above is disregarding her experiences, but trying to contextualize them. The thread started with the premise that what she experienced was a manifestation of gatekeeping against women, which could be the wrong conclusion in some cases. Reading different perspectives on these situations should help her getting into new groups going forward. And I believe that was the reason for asking about it in the first place.

^This.

What's the gaming situation like in Aus, is it mostly done in clubs or stores?

My advice would be really simple (it's not really specifically applicable to male/female trying to get a game, but just as a rule of thumb) - find local clubs or gaming locations and visit them, introduce yourself and just see what kind of people they are. I think it's that simple.

I moved to a new area a while back and wanted to find a nice local group; I was after some chilled people, who aren't WAAC/netlisting games, and who had a sense of humour. Basically people who I thought would enjoy gaming with. I don't think it's unreasonable to say that you do get groups who have a certain culture about them (and that's as much on me - we gravitate towards people who are like us naturally, and that's the way those places are.) I tried around a few places, played some intro games until I found a group.

I think if you try a few you will find some people that don't care if you are a guy or a girl, as I think most normal people wouldn't, and then hopefully you will find some people that you can have some relaxed, regular games with. That's all most of us are after at the end of the day!

@OP: I've seen all these behaviors before all over gaming (MTG, RPG groups, wargames...), these are absolutely common and widespread phenomena, not a figment of your imagination. That said I think it'd be a mistake to interpret these as deliberately or maliciously sexist, or to take these as personal attacks, I think the impulse to assume that "woman = n00b that needs things explained to her" is more reflexive misplaced chivalry than any kind of desire to make gaming a boys-only club. If you stick around and push back if you feel like they're trying to push you around I think they'll get used to you and it'll get better.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I think the impulse to assume that "woman = n00b that needs things explained to her" is more reflexive misplaced chivalry than any kind of desire to make gaming a boys-only club

Okay, umm, is there any difference here other than intent? Like, they're both sexist and have an exclusionary effect, no?

OP, best thing to do in pickup games is set expectations ahead of time about skill levels, type of game etc. I’d have a chat! Sound out if this potential opponent is just a sucky person, or if they want the same thing from a game as you. Set expectations and both have a better time. Dialogue is key. Sadly you will encounter sexism, gatekeeping, and those who don’t see these things even in front of them. But hopefully pre-game or pre-visit chats will help set up some great games and experiences, and avoid some likely to be poor shows.

macluvin wrote:
I do find it troubling that there is a pattern of denying and rewriting the experience of women to fit men’s experience on this forum however

Go re-read your first post - at that point in time the OPs' own comment was 'maybe not hostile per say but a little gate keeping' - and from that and that alone you extracted multiple paragraphs of gender-bias, microaggression, cognitive dissonance, 'mansplaining', and so on. Actually asking for context was an afterthought.

No one here is denying the OPs' experiences. Entering any new group or hobby can be challenging and we can either try and emphasize based our own personal experiences, or make a lot of assumptions about theirs.