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Gert, haven't you just proven the opposite of your point? The article alleging $400 for a proper (2000p?) battle, and those prices you list being $460 for 100 power?

 ph34r wrote:
Gert, haven't you just proven the opposite of your point? The article alleging $400 for a proper (2000p?) battle, and those prices you list being $460 for 100 power?

Yes, Gert just did that. I asked for 1500-2k. Gert gave prices for 1K.

Out of curiosity I priced up a typical 2K SM army in my style. Even cobbling together my Captain and Lt. out of spare parts I get $540 US.

The IG Start collecting is $90 US, and it looks like a Squad, a Commissar, and a Leman Russ. How many of those sets does it take to get to 2k?

Again though, the article didn't imply 2k armies. It implied playable armies.

I forget how many combat patrol missions there are in the BRB- it's at least 6, and as many as 12. A 500 point army is quite playable in 9th, and is in fact the recommended starting size for Crusade.

I would argue that most new players probably do start playing with 500 and escalate as they paint- even those who do eventually go on to become tournament players, and we have no viable evidence that I'm aware of to suggest that the majority of 40k players DO actually go on to become Strike Force scale OR tournament players.

Evidence that Dakkanaughts do? Sure. But this article was not written for Dakkanaughts, nor do they make up the majority of 40k players.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
Gert, haven't you just proven the opposite of your point? The article alleging $400 for a proper (2000p?) battle, and those prices you list being $460 for 100 power?

Yes, Gert just did that. I asked for 1500-2k. Gert gave prices for 1K.

Out of curiosity I priced up a typical 2K SM army in my style. Even cobbling together my Captain and Lt. out of spare parts I get $540 US.

The IG Start collecting is $90 US, and it looks like a Squad, a Commissar, and a Leman Russ. How many of those sets does it take to get to 2k?

4 will give you about 1300pts with $40 USD left over. Depending upon options included &/or ones creativity I'm sure you could stretch that into about a 1500 pt list.
To hit 2k? 5 boxes + creativity, or 6 boxes outright.

To be fair someone who starts the hobby shouldn't aim at 2000 points immediately. 1K games is a much more appropriate target.

The newbie has to learn how to assemble and paint the models, read and memorize the rules and make experience to properly learn how to play. That requires months or even more than an year after buying the first miniatures and hobby tools.

With some elite armies or 2nd hand lots it's also possible to get 2000 points armies for much cheaper than what's average for 40k.

 Blackie wrote:
To be fair someone who starts the hobby shouldn't aim at 2000 points immediately. 1K games is a much more appropriate target.

The newbie has to learn how to assemble and paint the models, read and memorize the rules and make experience to properly learn how to play. That requires months or even more than an year after buying the first miniatures and hobby tools.

With some elite armies or 2nd hand lots it's also possible to get 2000 points armies for much cheaper than what's average for 40k.

And by the time they've done all that, the rules will have changed to make their army unplayable.

Hecaton wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
To be fair someone who starts the hobby shouldn't aim at 2000 points immediately. 1K games is a much more appropriate target.

The newbie has to learn how to assemble and paint the models, read and memorize the rules and make experience to properly learn how to play. That requires months or even more than an year after buying the first miniatures and hobby tools.

With some elite armies or 2nd hand lots it's also possible to get 2000 points armies for much cheaper than what's average for 40k.

And by the time they've done all that, the rules will have changed to make their army unplayable.

Gotta rigidly stick to that 3 year rules change cycle to maximise them profits, regardless of it is right for the system or not, amirite?

 ph34r wrote:
Gert, haven't you just proven the opposite of your point? The article alleging $400 for a proper (2000p?) battle, and those prices you list being $460 for 100 power?

The article didn't say 2k points it said "Proper" which as I have already said is not by any metric a definition of points/power level. In your opinion "proper" is 2k points and in mine it's 50ish power (roughly 1k points). Others will play at Patrol level with is 500pts/25 power. Some people might only play at 3kpts/person as my group does with 30k. There isn't a "proper" way to have an army and defining it as 2k points.

@Insectum I misread your post, I thought it said 1k-1.5k but I refer you to the above with regards to your "proper" army opinion.

 Insectum7 wrote:

The IG Start collecting is $90 US, and it looks like a Squad, a Commissar, and a Leman Russ. How many of those sets does it take to get to 2k?

Not a good example and hasn't been since it was released. It's downright pathetic that they have kept it on sale. Every community survey I crapped on that thing. The SC wasn't even a valid "getting started" bit and required a unique Formation to be playable upon release.

The Cadian Defence Force is a decent starting point. Don't know the points, but it's a solid 25 to 28 Power which depends upon how you utilize the Heavy Weapon Squads.

PenitentJake wrote:
Again though, the article didn't imply 2k armies. It implied playable armies.

Your interpretation, not mine. 500 points is not what I'd call a "proper" army.

Even then, my goofy Tyranid Warrior army will run you $330 US at 500 points already. The price range is wiiiiide.

The article is well within it's rights to use $400 as an example price point.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

The IG Start collecting is $90 US, and it looks like a Squad, a Commissar, and a Leman Russ. How many of those sets does it take to get to 2k?

Not a good example and hasn't been since it was released. It's downright pathetic that they have kept it on sale. Every community survey I crapped on that thing. The SC wasn't even a valid "getting started" bit and required a unique Formation to be playable upon release.

The Cadian Defence Force is a decent starting point. Don't know the points, but it's a solid 25 to 28 Power which depends upon how you utilize the Heavy Weapon Squads.

Ah yes, the CDF is much better. But that's still 4 sets of that to get 2K ish points. So $740 before tax.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gert wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
Gert, haven't you just proven the opposite of your point? The article alleging $400 for a proper (2000p?) battle, and those prices you list being $460 for 100 power?

The article didn't say 2k points it said "Proper" which as I have already said is not by any metric a definition of points/power level. In your opinion "proper" is 2k points and in mine it's 50ish power (roughly 1k points). Others will play at Patrol level with is 500pts/25 power. Some people might only play at 3kpts/person as my group does with 30k. There isn't a "proper" way to have an army and defining it as 2k points.

@Insectum I misread your post, I thought it said 1k-1.5k but I refer you to the above with regards to your "proper" army opinion.

My $600 Price at 2K with Intercessors looks pretty good when you counter with $230 for 1K though

Watch this: You gave $230 at 1k. (Or 460 at 2k)
Kanluen gave the CDF, which is $740 for 2k

Average those 460+740 = 1200
1200/2 = $600

 Toofast wrote:

 Togusa wrote:


Also, the "400$" for a "Proper" army quote is insane. Ugh, more trash journalism.

Yes because it's impossible to build an army for $400. For 2k points of models, glue, clippers, primer, paint, rulebook, and codex you're looking at more than $400 unless you buy a giant pile of mistakes from someone on ebay.

depends how you go about it, new official GW models, not 2k for $400, but getting some unpainted ebay models its quite doable and they do not need to be mistakes often its easy to find properly built models with bits from the kits primed or plain grey plastic. Also if you have a friend, acquaintance, or happen to own a resin 3d printer yourself it becomes extremely cheap. pretty sure I got more than 4k points of custodies infantry out of a $37 bottle of resin over the past month. gold spray pint is a few bucks a can, and a 12 pack of good OG superglue is $7 on amazon. rulebook and codexes can be found in digital format for free at the usual places if one were inclined to search the various bays.

The plastic land raider came out in 2000. It was $60. That's $80 in "today money". The land raider presently costs $80.

40K was never cheap. You just didn't internalize the true cost of things when you were young and you stopped appreciating the ability to slowly grow a collection for "garage games".

 Daedalus81 wrote:
The plastic land raider came out in 2000. It was $60. That's $80 in "today money". The land raider presently costs $80.

40K was never cheap. You just didn't internalize the true cost of things when you were young and you stopped appreciating the ability to slowly grow a collection for "garage games".

The Land Raider was $44.99 when it was released. WD 245. While the classis LR is currently $80, the Crusader/Redeemer is $96.

The Tau Riptide is $110 now. I'm curious how much it was when originally released. Anyone know?

 Insectum7 wrote:
Your interpretation, not mine. 500 points is not what I'd call a "proper" army.

I woudn't call it "my interpretation" - I like Crusade; the Crusade rules suggest starting with a 25 PL force. Every Combat Patrol box is designed to be close to the 25PL mark. There are 20+ missions between the BRB and Mission Packs that are specifically designed for 25 PL games. I'd say it is GW's intent, purpose and interpretation that 25 PL games are a) valid and b) an intended entry point to the hobby.

As for your belief that 500 PL is not a proper army, well that IS an interpretation, and of course, you are entitled too it. But it is clearly at odds with the design of this edition of the game, and the intent of those who produce the game. This isn't the same as saying "you're wrong" - many people, especially those who do aspire to tournament play, will feel the way you do, despite what the designers intended and despite what people who are new to the hobby may feel.

For me personally, having 6 forces at 25 PL is more satisfying than 1 force at 150 PL because I have friends who like to play, but don't buy. My collection ensures that I always have the capacity to play- and even host a campaign. A single 2k point army leaves me at the whims of strangers in stores and Covid restrictions and being forced to play matched because it's all any stranger in a store ever wants to do.

 Insectum7 wrote:

The article is well within it's rights to use $400 as an example price point.

Well we can agree on that.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

The IG Start collecting is $90 US, and it looks like a Squad, a Commissar, and a Leman Russ. How many of those sets does it take to get to 2k?

Not a good example and hasn't been since it was released. It's downright pathetic that they have kept it on sale. Every community survey I crapped on that thing. The SC wasn't even a valid "getting started" bit and required a unique Formation to be playable upon release.

Um... Not sure what you mean here?

A Commissar is HQ. The squad is troops. That's what is currently required for a standard Patrol detachment. It's also what was required for a Patrol in 8th.

I skipped 6th and 7th eds. because my favourite factions in the game weren't given ANY attention until the very tag end of 7th, so maybe the IG Start Collecting box wasn't legal in those eds. But it certainly has been for the past two. It doesn't hit the 25PL mark, but it is a legal detachment.

You certainly are correct that the Battleforce is a better box; it does allow a player to get to 25PL and even exceed it. It can also be fielded as legal Patrol. And if you get both boxes, which comes in at below $400 in CAD, you can get to 50 PL and field it as either double Patrols or a Battalion (the far and away better choice).

PenitentJake wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Your interpretation, not mine. 500 points is not what I'd call a "proper" army.

I woudn't call it "my interpretation" - I like Crusade; the Crusade rules suggest starting with a 25 PL force. . .

Tomato, tomahto. It amounts to the same thing.

When it was released the Guard SC was good value for money due to the Russ but was only usable with the specific Formation that came in the box which was the hallmark of the SC boxes for both AoS and 40k. It's a legal force now to a degree because you either get a Heavy Weapon base which can't be taken in squads less than three strong or you have two random Guardsmen minis. The best bet is to use the HWT in the Guardsmen unit and convert the two remaining models into a Company Commander and something like a Master of Ordnance using the Tank Commander bitz.
I'm interested to see what the Guard CP box will be and if Scions keep the SC or get a CP as well.

PenitentJake wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

The IG Start collecting is $90 US, and it looks like a Squad, a Commissar, and a Leman Russ. How many of those sets does it take to get to 2k?

Not a good example and hasn't been since it was released. It's downright pathetic that they have kept it on sale. Every community survey I crapped on that thing. The SC wasn't even a valid "getting started" bit and required a unique Formation to be playable upon release.

Um... Not sure what you mean here?

A Commissar is HQ. The squad is troops. That's what is currently required for a standard Patrol detachment. It's also what was required for a Patrol in 8th.

Except in order for this box to be correct, it requires you to actually ignore what is in it:

You’ll receive a Leman Russ Battle Tank, a Cadian Heavy Weapon Team, an Officio Prefectus Commissar and a set of ten Cadian Shock Troops.

Officio Prefectus Commissar is an Elite, not an HQ.

The only HQ choice Commissars are Yarrick and the Commissar Lord.

I skipped 6th and 7th eds. because my favourite factions in the game weren't given ANY attention until the very tag end of 7th, so maybe the IG Start Collecting box wasn't legal in those eds. But it certainly has been for the past two. It doesn't hit the 25PL mark, but it is a legal detachment.

It came out in 7th Edition. It wasn't legal under the setup they gave you(Commissar, Infantry Squad, Leman Russ). It required a unique formation in the set.

You certainly are correct that the Battleforce is a better box; it does allow a player to get to 25PL and even exceed it. It can also be fielded as legal Patrol. And if you get both boxes, which comes in at below $400 in CAD, you can get to 50 PL and field it as either double Patrols or a Battalion (the far and away better choice).

There is literally zero reason to buy the SC: Guard box unless you don't know the other exists. End of story.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
You just didn't internalize the true cost of things when you were young and you stopped appreciating the ability to slowly grow a collection for "garage games".

Games Workshop punishes the people who slowly grow garage armies by reshuffling the rules very frequently.

Hecaton wrote:
Games Workshop punishes the people who slowly grow garage armies by reshuffling the rules very frequently.

I managed to slow grow my CSM from 6th Ed to now and I've never been "punished" with rules changes, they've stayed consistently garbage. The only people who are actively "punished" by rules changes are meta chasers.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
The plastic land raider came out in 2000. It was $60. That's $80 in "today money". The land raider presently costs $80.

No, that's when the current plastic Land Raider came out. And has been pointed out it was under $50. Though I guess you could be forgiven if you just rounded it up to $50. A later price hike took it up to $60. And then into the &70s. And now we're at $80....

But the original arrived in '88. They came in a 2-pack! for 13GBP ($20something here in the USA, I'll let you look up the exact exchange rate)!
http://solegends.com/citrt2/rtb05landraiders/index.htm

 Gert wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
Games Workshop punishes the people who slowly grow garage armies by reshuffling the rules very frequently.

I managed to slow grow my CSM from 6th Ed to now and I've never been "punished" with rules changes, they've stayed consistently garbage. The only people who are actively "punished" by rules changes are meta chasers.

Or just someone who modeled their HQ with stuff that's no longer legal, because kitbashing means people aren't buying more.

Meta chasers, assuming they have the means to do it, are rewarded by consistently winning games, because they're doing exactly what GW wants by buying a new faction frequently. Players who wanted to slow build a fun army are punished. Like you said, your army's been consistently garbage outside of a few specific builds for a long time. They're not going to put out the effort of giving your army a coherent codex, they'd rather half-ass it as a half-assed codex gives them the result they want.

Hecaton wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
You just didn't internalize the true cost of things when you were young and you stopped appreciating the ability to slowly grow a collection for "garage games".

Games Workshop punishes the people who slowly grow garage armies by reshuffling the rules very frequently.

People playing garage armies don't give a gak. I know I didn't. I bought what was cool and what I could afford.

You guys are debating and arguing over the most pointless and asinine crap. What we should be discussing is this:

Ms. Guest, the daughter of Jamie Lee Curtis and Christopher Guest, is a longtime Warhammer fan. When she was in high school in Los Angeles, she and two classmates who called themselves “the nerd herd” led a successful campaign to throw a Warhammer-themed prom.

I would like to know more.

 Gert wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
2000 points worth of Intercessors is $600 US

2000 points of Neophyte Hybrids is . . . Using 80 points per squad. . . $1,100 US.

If only armies were made up of more than Intercessors and Hybrids and GW sold discount boxes specifically targeted at newstarts. Man that would be just amazing wouldn't it?

hobojebus wrote:
Yeah it's no longer a game kids can afford to play, which is a big issue since eventually older players will disappear.

That's such nonsense. The starter sets are specifically cheap and easy kits to get and the only way "kids" aren't going to be able to afford to play 40k is if local scenes price them out by exclusively playing 2k point tournament-style games.
This is the same stupid thing over and over again where people whine that 40k is too expensive to get into and then it turns out they put caveat after caveat on what "proper" 40k is. You are not meant to start 40k with 2k point armies, that has never been the case and GW has never sold it as that. You start off with the Starter sets, Battleforces, Start Collectings, or Combat Patrols and work your way through the systems of the game from Patrol to Incursion, Strike Force, and Onslaught as the end goal.

How the hell is a kid on allowance supposed to buy a Combat Patrol? Those things are fething stupidly expensive - for 3 units you get a barely playable army and for about $200

You know what you can get for $200 10 years ago? A Battleforce.
Yeah, a full army with vehicles, HQ and everything

WH isn't cheap, atleast not for kids. The only exception being the smaller starter sets, but that limits you to the factions of the current edition

 Gert wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Yeah it's no longer a game kids can afford to play, which is a big issue since eventually older players will disappear.

That's such nonsense. The starter sets are specifically cheap and easy kits to get and the only way "kids" aren't going to be able to afford to play 40k is if local scenes price them out by exclusively playing 2k point tournament-style games.
This is the same stupid thing over and over again where people whine that 40k is too expensive to get into and then it turns out they put caveat after caveat on what "proper" 40k is. You are not meant to start 40k with 2k point armies, that has never been the case and GW has never sold it as that. You start off with the Starter sets, Battleforces, Start Collectings, or Combat Patrols and work your way through the systems of the game from Patrol to Incursion, Strike Force, and Onslaught as the end goal.

Average game of 40k is played at 2k points, at least in 9th. In 7th it was 1500pts but points costs have drastically changed since then. People can argue to their hearts content that 100pts all the way to 1999 is just as normal but the fact will remain that the most common list setup is 2k points, which is also illustrated on this site by going to the army lists section and seeing that of the 50 entries, 50% are 2k while the rest are spread out from 500 - 2500.

So with that premise in mind...yes 40k is too expensive for "KIDS" to get involved in without significant financial support from family. I'll review orkz in this regard because I am exclusively an Ork player.

So right now the 2 big boxes for orkz are the Killdakka (crapdakka) box and the Combat patrol box. The Crapdakka box is about $228 depending on local sales tax, while the Combat box is about $150.

Crapdakka box is
- 1x Big Mek with Shokk Attack Gun
- 1x Deffkilla Wartrike
- 1x Dakkajet (can instead be assembled as a Wazbom Blastajet, Blitza-Bommer, or Burna-Bommer)
- 5x Nobz and 1x Grot
- 10x Gretchin and 1x Runtherd
- 20x Boyz

Comes out to 750pts if you take the Flyer as a Wazbom (Most expensive) and nothing has any upgrades. So you are talking about roughly 3pts for a Dollar. So to get to 2k you need closer to $600-700 And of course this list is....god awful and most importantly it does NOT come with the Codex ($50), The Rule book ($65), Dice ($10 minimum for orkz quadruple this LOL) Tape measure ($10 minimum) and Paints/brushes ($100+) So at a minimum you need $235 more just for the bare necessities with this 750pt army. So now you are in the realm of (with taxes) $500 to play a 750pt army. That is just not kid friendly.

What about the much smaller/cheaper Combat patrol box?
– 1x Warboss in Mega Armour
– 20x Ork Boyz
– 3x Deffkoptas
– 1x Deff Dread

This works out to 530pts, so now your cost of entry for orkz is about $400 and you have a Tiny ork army that is auto-lose against almost any list in existence The only "good" unit in this list is the Deffkoptas and since they don't exactly blend in, they die first

So to get to 2kpts and have a valid list you would need 5 of these boxes so thats $1,000 minimum, and your paints are going to need to be improved with more colors so you will need at least another 3-4pots if for nothing else than better paint jobs. But even if you stay at the 500pt level its still way to expensive to get the necessities and play.

Without breaking out all the old tips/tricks you could easily get to a maximum sized game with orkz for well under $500, I mean, hell you could get 6 boxes of lootas/burnas and 3 boxes of Boyz for $225 or less and that worked out to 24 Lootas, 24 burnas, 9 Tankbustas, 3 Nobz, and 3 mekz/boyz/nobz. In 7th edition prices that was a sizable force. The Burnas/Tankbustas/lootas/Nobz were around 14-16pts each. so average 15, 15x 60 = 900pts $225 just got you 3/5th of a 1,500pt army, Toss in some HQs and Boyz and poof, you are at 1,500pts for well under $500. By todays standards....ouch. The boyz kit alone is going to be $55-60 or more than 2x more expensive. Lootas are going for $9 more or 36% increase and whats worse, they won't match the bodies of the new boyz so that trick is dead.

All of that combines to just show that the game is no longer "kid friendly" in regards to money.

 Gert wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
Games Workshop punishes the people who slowly grow garage armies by reshuffling the rules very frequently.

I managed to slow grow my CSM from 6th Ed to now and I've never been "punished" with rules changes, they've stayed consistently garbage. The only people who are actively "punished" by rules changes are meta chasers.

I collected a Kan wall in 7th for fun, they weren't good in 7th, they were okish but definitely not good. I also collected a loota army, a biker army and a host of other things...hell, I bought a morkanaut. The Kanz, Lootas, Morkanaut are now so bad that to play with them is to start the game with a handicap. My ork army is actively punished by rules changes. I play orkz and only orkz, I'm sure as hell not a "meta chaser". But so many different units i own have become useless that its ridiculous. Thankfully I find the Stompa god awful ugly or else I would have been penalized since its existence with how bad its rules have been

123ply wrote:

How the hell is a kid on allowance supposed to buy a Combat Patrol? Those things are fething stupidly expensive - for 3 units you get a barely playable army and for about $200

I've no idea what kids are getting allowance wise these days. But I'm going to hazard a guess that the answer (if only relying upon allowance) is "SLOWLY".

123ply wrote:
You know what you can get for $200 10 years ago? A Battleforce.
Yeah, a full army with vehicles, HQ and everything

Well unless you've access to a time machine that doesn't matter.

123ply wrote:
WH isn't cheap, atleast not for kids. The only exception being the smaller starter sets, but that limits you to the factions of the current edition

Well, since the current edition is what they'll most likely be playing, I'm not sure this is a true problem?

As an excercise I'll try to find out what my 2K army cost me when I started in 2nd edition. Should be a pretty stark difference seeing as how my Devastator Squad came in at 500 points, and 5 Terminators were 360 iirc.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
People playing garage armies don't give a gak. I know I didn't. I bought what was cool and what I could afford.

For those of us who demand high-quality games for high-end price points, we care. Like I get it that you'd be happy with your garage army that loses every game because it's so underpowered, or to have your ability to field the models you like taken away because GW can't be bothered to make rules that allow you to, but reasonable people aren't.

Well for kids GW games were always hard. I started as an 11yo kid and couldn't finish a proper army (2000ish points) until 3-4 years. In the meantime I enjoyed painting the models and playing with tons of proxies along with people my age, also proxying a lot.

Kids in my opinion should look at the hobby for at least an edition before even thinking about playing. Playing properly I mean, because games with extremely limited collections can be too one sided with nothing players can do to get more balance. Enjoy the hobby, collect and paint enough miniatures and then eventually start looking at the game.

40k and all the other GW games are not high quality games, they're a combination of multiple hobbies, which includes wargaming. If a kid is interested in wargaming rather that the lore or the hobby of painting the miniatures, 40k (like any other GW game) is probably the wrong answer.

 Blackie wrote:
Well for kids GW games were always hard. I started as an 11yo kid and couldn't finish a proper army (2000ish points) until 3-4 years. In the meantime I enjoyed painting the models and playing with tons of proxies along with people my age, also proxying a lot.

Kids in my opinion should look at the hobby for at least an edition before even thinking about playing. Playing properly I mean, because games with extremely limited collections can be too one sided with nothing players can do to get more balance. Enjoy the hobby, collect and paint enough miniatures and then eventually start looking at the game.

40k and all the other GW games are not high quality games, they're a combination of multiple hobbies, which includes wargaming. If a kid is interested in wargaming rather that the lore or the hobby of painting the miniatures, 40k (like any other GW game) is probably the wrong answer.

But that's not how kids approach games these days. Maybe when you/we/I were kids it was a more casual thing but the environment around gaming due to Twitch streams, esports etc has become much more competitive since then. It's the same reason as to why the tournament meta is such a focus of conversation when discussing balance despite it being a very small part of the community (among other factors). Kids emulate what they see their peers doing and I think basically all the games you see on YouTube are 2000pts. All the discussion revolves around 2000pts, everyone at FLGSs play 2000pts, so kids are going to want to get to 2000pts as soon as they can.