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 Sim-Life wrote:

 kodos wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 kodos wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
40k 10th edition 2023.

by now I am sure we see 10th in 2022

I wouldn't be surprised if they do this, but I will be saddened and disappointed.

Not every codex will be updated by December 2022, I don't think. We already have reliable rumors through may of next year.

was there ever an Edition were every Codex was updated before the next one hit the shelf?
and just because there are rumours for new Codex books in May, does not mean a new Edition is released in June

8th.

And 3rd.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 kodos wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
40k 10th edition 2023.

by now I am sure we see 10th in 2022

I wouldn't be surprised if they do this, but I will be saddened and disappointed.

Not every codex will be updated by December 2022, I don't think. We already have reliable rumors through may of next year.

We know from history that GW released a new edition before all codices have been updated.
Wouldn't be a surprise if they do so.

 Platuan4th wrote:


[/spoiler]

 Sim-Life wrote:

 kodos wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 kodos wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
40k 10th edition 2023.

by now I am sure we see 10th in 2022

I wouldn't be surprised if they do this, but I will be saddened and disappointed.

Not every codex will be updated by December 2022, I don't think. We already have reliable rumors through may of next year.

was there ever an Edition were every Codex was updated before the next one hit the shelf?
and just because there are rumours for new Codex books in May, does not mean a new Edition is released in June

8th.

[/spoiler]

And 3rd.

Maybe?

I say that because the design of Hunter/ Inquisition books seemed to imply that there was a plan for Alien Hunters, which never happened.

But maybe they only planned to release two of the three Ordos out of the gate, I don't know. What I do know is that their failure to release an Alien Hunter dex was my biggest complaint about 3rd.

I like the idea of the Seasons, keeping a theme to play in. On face value, that's pretty cool.

I won't need to buy the campaign/cursade book (unless it's applicable for my army). Usually, I've enjoyed reading the campaign books I've read.

I really like having a physical chapter approved book, and I do like how the book is bound/formatted and the content. not fussed buying two of those a year. I would be happy if it was cheaper and the points manual wasn't included, and was a free PDF on the community site. The points manual is such a waste of paper.

chaos0xomega wrote:
I think the timing of it is a response to consumer feedback on that survey from a few months back. Overwhelmingly, based on the chatter I saw on dakka, facebook groups, twitter, etc. it seemed most people thought 6 months was the optimal frequency for "balance updates" in response to the questions posed in the survey. I think it follows that they listened to what the people want and decided to move ahead with a 6 month season based on that.

Which is almost certainly not what anyone wanted lol. They wanted balance updates, not stuff they had to buy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:
I have zero interest in Points. Points are ABSOLUTE TRASH. They're a false sense of balance. They also encourage the absolute dumpsterfire that is the faux-comp scene, which basically amounts to copy/paste tourney lists.

They're a better sense of balance than Power.

But you seem to steer away from games and game systems with a focus on balance.

These so called seasons are a way for gw to manipulate the availability of units through passing narrative, introducing new units with rules supported by their effectiveness in a current theater, and ideally explaining why for instance wave serpents might go up in points, because they had been overused due to high availability and effectiveness (I.e. low points cost and op serpent shield nonsense etc) with the result being that most have been damaged or destroyed, in need of repair, so now forces should pay more to requisition them with perhaps a limit on how many may be used. These seasons also reinforce the idea of a comp meta driving innovative play at top levels (not a fan of so called competitive 40k but also not one to judge how people want to spend their time) and should allow gw to manipulate that meta, drive sluggish unit sales and all that bizniz.

That said, not for me. Prohammer, oldhammer, yada… that is my ticket to the future. Unless 10th does something to stabilize the system, return to wargame sim RPG roots, my personal hope is that this whole market driven meta sales campaign that gw is calling seasons will flop.

 jeff white wrote:
These so called seasons are a way for gw to manipulate the availability of units through passing narrative, introducing new units with rules supported by their effectiveness in a current theater, and ideally explaining why for instance wave serpents might go up in points, because they had been overused due to high availability and effectiveness (I.e. low points cost and op serpent shield nonsense etc) with the result being that most have been damaged or destroyed, in need of repair, so now forces should pay more to requisition them with perhaps a limit on how many may be used. These seasons also reinforce the idea of a comp meta driving innovative play at top levels (not a fan of so called competitive 40k but also not one to judge how people want to spend their time) and should allow gw to manipulate that meta, drive sluggish unit sales and all that bizniz.

That said, not for me. Prohammer, oldhammer, yada… that is my ticket to the future. Unless 10th does something to stabilize the system, return to wargame sim RPG roots, my personal hope is that this whole market driven meta sales campaign that gw is calling seasons will flop.

I think you've hit on something interesting: the impact of Seasons definitely has different effects for Crusade and Matched.

Matched, of course, has to deal with meta in some way shape or form- I'm no expert in Matched play, and I'll leave it to others to figure out whether scheduling and normalizing balance updates at a biannual pace is good or bad. It sounds like most people aren't objecting to that, they're objecting to the cost.

Crusade is a bit different though- that stuff has to be story based. The Crusade mission pack/ campaign book combos we've seen so far have presented some story based mechanic- grudge points, planet-strike, investigation points, three player scenarios etc. And then of course, all of the specific Agendas, Battle Honours, relics etc. Some have suggested that these become "invalidated" at the end of the season- so far, that hasn't really been the case; completing a battle in the theatre marks your army as a veteran force from that theatre, and this status allows you to keep your gains, or trade them for others from the next theatre as you see fit.

Even in Crusade, you're right that they can use rules to drive unit selection/ boost sales etc. And while Armies of Renown aren't exclusively a feature of Crusade, they can be used that way. These would be the most likely mechanism for driving model sales.

Interesting as well that you mention simulation and RPG in the same sentence; I personally find the two to be opposites of each other- I certainly get an RPG feel from Crusade, but I feel that most would argue that this detracts from the simulation feel of more conventional wargames.

Edit: I agree with HBMC that the content from the campaign book and the crusade mission pack could and should be merged. Heck, you could probably merge the GT pack too, but if you did, some people would object because they are exclusively matched players and they don't want the campaign stuff- just the tourney updates.

I’m really excited about this!

The rigidity of a Seasons model, on a regular scheduled basis, opens up a ton more freedom for iteration and development for matched/narrative meta long form play.

At the moment, each FAQ or Chapter Approved represents a ‘final version’ (both psychologically in the player base, and practically in terms of army investment), which encourages conservative/cautious, minor changes. With a seasonal model, with changes known to be imminent on a part-year basis, these changes can be made a bit more optimistically with less caution-if they don’t work.

sieGermans wrote:
I’m really excited about this!

The rigidity of a Seasons model, on a regular scheduled basis, opens up a ton more freedom for iteration and development for matched/narrative meta long form play.

If you truly believe that's what GW are going to do with the "season" approach I have a bridge I want to sell you. That's quite apart from the fact they'll be charging us double for the privilege now too.

Slipspace wrote:

sieGermans wrote:
I’m really excited about this!

The rigidity of a Seasons model, on a regular scheduled basis, opens up a ton more freedom for iteration and development for matched/narrative meta long form play.

If you truly believe that's what GW are going to do with the "season" approach I have a bridge I want to sell you. That's quite apart from the fact they'll be charging us double for the privilege now too.

Why couldn't they? They've adjusted missions multiple times already. As the game continues to develop this gives them an outlet to address issues.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

sieGermans wrote:
I’m really excited about this!

The rigidity of a Seasons model, on a regular scheduled basis, opens up a ton more freedom for iteration and development for matched/narrative meta long form play.

If you truly believe that's what GW are going to do with the "season" approach I have a bridge I want to sell you. That's quite apart from the fact they'll be charging us double for the privilege now too.

Why couldn't they? They've adjusted missions multiple times already. As the game continues to develop this gives them an outlet to address issues.

Because their business model relies on change for the sake of change. If they somehow magically got the game to an absolutely perfect state in which no more changes would be necessary they'd change it to make it worse because otherwise they couldn't sell you new books.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

sieGermans wrote:
I’m really excited about this!

The rigidity of a Seasons model, on a regular scheduled basis, opens up a ton more freedom for iteration and development for matched/narrative meta long form play.

If you truly believe that's what GW are going to do with the "season" approach I have a bridge I want to sell you. That's quite apart from the fact they'll be charging us double for the privilege now too.

Why couldn't they? They've adjusted missions multiple times already. As the game continues to develop this gives them an outlet to address issues.

I didn't say they couldn't. I expressed extreme doubt that they will, backed up by experience of the mission packs so far. TBF, I did accidentally delete the second half of the quote that mentions making bigger changes, which is mainly what I'm sceptical of. If GW were to take a radically different direction at some point to start a new season, experience also suggests the balance will be virtually non-existent until they iterate on that concept about 6 times, before promptly changing to something else.

But, like, that’s what people said for like 5 editions until 8th... which has shown a marked improvement to both balance, enjoyability, and FAQ/amendments schedules. If you look at how 8th was better (aside from the Index ‘reset’ which put all armies at an even keel):

1. Regular Chapter Approved release schedule (read: rules updates, points adjustments)
2. Better/more communication

This ‘Seasons’ thing is both!

It’s not guaranteed to be perfect, nor better—but it’s definitely a cost-investment from GW.

sieGermans wrote:
But, like, that’s what people said for like 5 editions until 8th... which has shown a marked improvement to both balance, enjoyability, and FAQ/amendments schedules. If you look at how 8th was better (aside from the Index ‘reset’ which put all armies at an even keel):

1. Regular Chapter Approved release schedule (read: rules updates, points adjustments)

Supposedly we were getting those anyway.

2. Better/more communication
This ‘Seasons’ thing is both!

Eh? Aside from 'this is definitely twice a year (until we have to push back a release date),' where is the more/better communication promised?

It’s not guaranteed to be perfect, nor better—but it’s definitely a cost-investment from GW.

How so? Quite seriously, how is this costing them anything more? They did warzones, mission packs, crusade packs and etc this year too.

Voss wrote:

2. Better/more communication
This ‘Seasons’ thing is both!

Eh? Aside from 'this is definitely twice a year (until we have to push back a release date),' where is the more/better communication promised?

It’s not guaranteed to be perfect, nor better—but it’s definitely a cost-investment from GW.

How so? Quite seriously, how is this costing them anything more? They did warzones, mission packs, crusade packs and etc this year too.

I don't want to speak for SieGermans, but I think it's about commitment. You're right Voss- there's no additional monetary investment on GW's behalf- we got everything this year that two seasons promises us for next. But the commitment is an investment in the future, and the details of the season system take a lot of anxiety out the year. We know exactly what we're getting: are you a KT player? Two vs. boxes, one for each campaign. Are you a 40k player? Two vs. boxes, one for each campaign.

Do you play Matched? Two GT packs and point updates per year, one per season- each informed by the tournament scene and metawatching of the previous six months. Like a particular secondary from season one? Well, in season two, you might not be playing it an official event, but casually with your mates? No reason you have to stop just because the season's over.

Do you play Crusade? Well strap in- there's two campaign books and two mission packs per season. You don't NEED any of these, strictly speaking, so it's best to check Goonhammer before you buy. There might even be some stuff Matched players want in a campaign book every now and again, but any new rule content is generally going to just be a sub-faction supplement or two and an army of renown or two, so really it's a crap shoot.

And it's incredibly consistent and predictable. You know how to budget, what to expect and when to expect it.

Now of course, there are caveats: the two campaign books and two crusade mission packs per season- that's my speculation based on 2021; GW hasn't actually confirmed that. Also, the Codex release cycle, unfortunately isn't wrapped up like it would have been if this Covid/ shipping crisis/ Brexit trifecta hadn't kicked the world in the gonads, meaning that there is still a degree of unpredictability to the year. And finally, as you pointed out, those three crises aren't actually over, so they do have the capacity to interfere with best laid plans for 2022 as much as they did in 2021.

But it is a clearer and more concise roadmap than we had at this time last year. And here's hoping that they get it right, and that it continues in 2023. There is an implication that this is what they are planning.

sieGermans wrote:
But, like, that’s what people said for like 5 editions until 8th... which has shown a marked improvement to both balance, enjoyability, and FAQ/amendments schedules. If you look at how 8th was better (aside from the Index ‘reset’ which put all armies at an even keel):

1. Regular Chapter Approved release schedule (read: rules updates, points adjustments)
2. Better/more communication

This ‘Seasons’ thing is both!

It’s not guaranteed to be perfect, nor better—but it’s definitely a cost-investment from GW.

If you zoop back to 6e-era me and told me "Good news! In the future things are going to be much, much more broken out of the gate, but GW's going to tone them down six months after release so they're only slightly more broken, but only if you buy periodic rules update books!" I really don't think I'd have thought that was what I was asking for.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

sieGermans wrote:
But, like, that’s what people said for like 5 editions until 8th... which has shown a marked improvement to both balance, enjoyability, and FAQ/amendments schedules. If you look at how 8th was better (aside from the Index ‘reset’ which put all armies at an even keel):

1. Regular Chapter Approved release schedule (read: rules updates, points adjustments)
2. Better/more communication

This ‘Seasons’ thing is both!

It’s not guaranteed to be perfect, nor better—but it’s definitely a cost-investment from GW.

If you zoop back to 6e-era me and told me "Good news! In the future things are going to be much, much more broken out of the gate, but GW's going to tone them down six months after release so they're only slightly more broken, but only if you buy periodic rules update books!" I really don't think I'd have thought that was what I was asking for.

But what if we also told you that this would be the best way to forge the narrative?

 Sledgehammer wrote:
These seasons are just another reason why I feel no need to return to 40k.

Stop making your rules worth less than the paper they're printed on. Stop focusing on army building aura buffing scheneigans, and start returning the game to one that's actually you know, a war game.

Oh wait, But the META!

feth off with this meta gak, and maybe you wouldn't need to sell new point values every 6 months?

Literally anyone who doesn't compete doesn't need these, and even then most of it is online on multiple sites within days of releasing.

The rest of us who love the meta and competitive 40k, we know this stuff is coming, and we look forward to it.

The idea that this invalidates anything is ridiculous. You're welcome to play the game however you want, but for many of us the meta is extremely important. So are new editions with new rulles.

The game becomes stale without it, much like WFB is outside of unofficial content.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kodos wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
40k 10th edition 2023.

by now I am sure we see 10th in 2022

No. It will be summer 2023 at the earliest. We might see it extend to early 2024 because covid set everything back.

People who think getting new editions suck probably don't play WFB. I'd do anything for an official 9th edition (on top of TOW). The game would become incredibly stale without new editions and mission packs.

And like I said above, complaining about having to buy it for points values is incredibly disingenuous, as the values are ALL online by the day it launches.

If you aren't a tournament player just skip it. Most gaming clubs just buy one between them for the new missions. Us tournament players are quite happy to get new missions and new strategies to play.

I play a lot of games that don't change for the sake of change every 6 months, and they still work, are fun and never became stale

always playing the very same list with the very same scenario against the very same opponent is stale, and without official changes there is of course nothing you can do about it

that you need to be forced by a company to change your game, tells a lot about how well GW marketing works
(just imagine every tournament/event having their own scenario pack that changes each time, without any official support from the company, 3rd to 5th Edi events must have been really stale and boring without the "official" stamp on them)

I guess this is also why real time strategy is stale if there are no changes every few weeks, play 1 game and all others games after that are just the same

PS: I even cannot imagine how stale chess tournaments are, same rules for decades, same scenario, same factions, just different players
I how could that tournament scene survive without bi-annual season that changes how the rules work

Slipspace wrote:
It's bad enough GW are already charging us for points updates.

They aren't; no matter how much this gets repeated, the current points alterations are available via tye Warhammer Community site for free.

There is plenty to scrutinise in here, but pounds-for-points isn't one of them.

I would like to see your source for that statement. As far as I can remember point updates (except for very minor things) have never been posted for free on the community page.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I would like to see your source for that statement. As far as I can remember point updates (except for very minor things) have never been posted for free on the community page.

2021 was cause Covid. But I don't believe they said they would always be free online.

Catulle wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
It's bad enough GW are already charging us for points updates.

They aren't; no matter how much this gets repeated, the current points alterations are available via tye Warhammer Community site for free.

There is plenty to scrutinise in here, but pounds-for-points isn't one of them.

Substantiate your claim with a link.

Cause no one here lives in your dimension.

Balance database is here: https://www.warhammer-community.com/downloads/

Codex and MFM Errata here: https://www.warhammer-community.com/faqs/

Note that the MFM-introduced points changes are reflected in, e.g. the Drukhari Codex errata (I freely admit I've not pored through everything) but it's always been available within a short window of any alterations.

There is room for complaint re timeliness and appropriate indexing, sure, but I don't think the sky is falling on that particular front.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I will add that I do feel that the MFM is a waste of carbon and ought to be replaced by a "living" document online, but that isn't what keeps being asserted.

They're not giving out the points changes for free. They gave out two armies as part of a balance sheet as they were needed. It was done as an emergency.

You think the new points coming with this first 'season' will be free?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
They're not giving out the points changes for free. They gave out two armies as part of a balance sheet as they were needed. It was done as an emergency.

You think the new points coming with this first 'season' will be free?

I do, honestly.

Avatar-bet?

If you own your codex and register it in the app, the points update there for free.

Literally the only person being stung for points changes are people who want a paper copy, if you pirated a book initially, odds are you'd do the same with points as a guess.

Catulle wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
They're not giving out the points changes for free. They gave out two armies as part of a balance sheet as they were needed. It was done as an emergency.

You think the new points coming with this first 'season' will be free?

I do, honestly.

Avatar-bet?

They’re quite literally selling them in a book.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Catulle wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
They're not giving out the points changes for free. They gave out two armies as part of a balance sheet as they were needed. It was done as an emergency.

You think the new points coming with this first 'season' will be free?

I do, honestly.

Avatar-bet?

They’re quite literally selling them in a book.

Which clearly means the errata will never be updated again..?

Like I say, it's a waste to print the MFM, though I reckon the cost-benefit's been done and the tourney crowd are sufficiently invested that they'll grumble then buy the damn thing anyway.

Catulle wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
They're not giving out the points changes for free. They gave out two armies as part of a balance sheet as they were needed. It was done as an emergency.

You think the new points coming with this first 'season' will be free?

I do, honestly.

Avatar-bet?

Resident "white knight" here - they will not be free.