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so, reading the goonhammer Ruleshammer article form yesterday (7th jan 22), they discuss something i had never heard suggested before, and i think it might be worth bringing to the attention of others.

The scenario: unit of 10 marines are locked in combat with a single remaining termagant.

The question: could the marine player declare he was shooting 5 pistols at the termagant, and 5 bolt rifles at another unit once he'd shot himself out of combat?

The answer: as far as goonhammer could tell, by RAW, YES.

They point out that their is no restriction on targeting, just on making attacks. if you declared the above, fired your pistols and successfully shot the tagging enemy off you, then by the time you got to making the bolter shots at the second target, your not blocked by the tagging enemy so you can proceed. they point to the language of big guns never tire to show that his is a thing, I'll quote below:

Note that if a VEHICLE or MONSTER unit has more than one ranged weapon, you can still choose to target units that are not within Engagement Range of the firing model’s unit, but they will only be able to make the attacks with that weapon if all enemy units within Engagement Range of the firing model’s unit have been destroyed when you come to resolve those attacks.

has anyone ever heard of this being done? i can follow the logic, and it seems like a potentially useful trick, assuming you can get the balance right of pistols to clear the tagger vs shots on other targets to be worth it. That said, i have never seen it suggested this was a thing before. what are your thoughts?


the goonhammer guys to cavet their answer with a "check with your tourney organiser" so they do feel its contentious.

If memory serves, this was pointed out by GW themselves when 9th edition rolled out. The example they used was that if you for example had a tank tagged by a lonely grot, you could gamble splitting its guns around but only getting to shoot them if you first managed to rid yourself of the grot.

So yeah, totally valid as rules stand.

Yeah I agree with their reasoning.

The reason you basically never see it happening is because its a very niche application that almost never comes up in game.

I know tanks can do it, but that's because tanks are specifically cited as being able to do it in the vehicle rules.
Other categories of units don't have that and it could be argued that they can't do it if completely RAW. But I don't see any reason why other units can't do it too if you follow the same restrictions.

Well in this scenario I hope tau pistols get AP so you could declare shots like this.
(May make them I bit too, OP but could be handy for getting out of engagement in some cases)

Hm, rereading the rules for Shooting Phase I'd be inclined to rule you actually shouldn't be doing that with units that aren't Vehicles or Monsters. It's specifically called out as a thing those two types of units can do and the implication of dividing all possible attacks heavily leans towards not allocating things that couldn't fire when the choice is made. This being a permissive rule set, it's better to follow the intention there to avoid silly outlier situations in an otherwise abstract framework.

Yes they cant as per rules, but I still think it would be funny for a strat or somthing to allow units to shoot with pistols then another weapon type.

As i understand the rules (as per wahapedia):
"When a model equipped with both a Pistol and another type of ranged weapon (e.g. a Pistol and a Rapid Fire weapon) shoots, it can either shoot with its Pistol(s) or with its other ranged weapons. Choose which it will fire (Pistols or non-Pistols) before selecting targets."

Thats an exclusive or if your trying to be smart, not an inclusive or.

And the big guns never tire rule is only stated for "A VEHICLE or MONSTER" and not any infantry unit.

Still I like the idea of it being a strat CP depending on unit size?

Big Guns Never Tire uses the phrase Vehicle or Monster model four different times to note things that these models can do. By implication, those things cannot be done by models that lack those keywords. I therefore have to say the Goonhammer analysis is just wrong based on that.

bedivere wrote:
Yes they cant as per rules, but I still think it would be funny for a strat or somthing to allow units to shoot with pistols then another weapon type.

As i understand the rules (as per wahapedia):
"When a model equipped with both a Pistol and another type of ranged weapon (e.g. a Pistol and a Rapid Fire weapon) shoots, it can either shoot with its Pistol(s) or with its other ranged weapons. Choose which it will fire (Pistols or non-Pistols) before selecting targets."

Thats an exclusive or if your trying to be smart, not an inclusive or.

And the big guns never tire rule is only stated for "A VEHICLE or MONSTER" and not any infantry unit.

Still I like the idea of it being a strat CP depending on unit size?

This is about having some models in a unit use their pistol to shoot someone they are in combat with, and different models use their other ranged weapon to shoot at something else. So not being able to shoot any other weapon isn't relevant. As its different models.

 alextroy wrote:
Big Guns Never Tire uses the phrase Vehicle or Monster model four different times to note things that these models can do. By implication, those things cannot be done by models that lack those keywords. I therefore have to say the Goonhammer analysis is just wrong based on that.

One thing being true doesn't stop other things from also being true.

The Shooting Phase rules tell the player to do three things:
1. Select an eligible unit to shoot with. Being in Engagement Range does not stop them from being eligible.
2. Select a target.
3. Resolve attacks.

The Locked in Combat rule says you cannot make ranged attacks while your unit is in Engagement Range (though Pistols have an obvious exception). It does not say you cannot select the engaged unit to shoot with, nor does it say you cannot select a target. It just stops you from resolving the attacks themselves.

If a model is not in Engagement Range by the time you get around to resolving their attacks, then you are allowed to resolve their attacks. You already have permission to select the unit to shoot with and select targets.

Just because Big Guns Never Tire specifically calls this out as being possible, doesn't mean that it is not possible for others.

Goonhammer is right, its legal.

As I said, by calling out that those units specifically can do something, this implies that other units cannot do so. It is certainly messy on GWs part to not clearly state so, but that doesn't mean you can either.

Seems like this whole argument is a “doesn’t say I can’t” premise, which as we know isn’t an argument at all.

Vehicles and Monsters get permission to shoot stuff outside of Engagement Range provided they shoot everything in ER to death first. Nothing else does.

Not valid, but hey, it got Goonhammer some clicks.

 alextroy wrote:
As I said, by calling out that those units specifically can do something, this implies that other units cannot do so. It is certainly messy on GWs part to not clearly state so, but that doesn't mean you can either.

And as I said, calling it out for one thing does not invalidate it for others.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Seems like this whole argument is a “doesn’t say I can’t” premise, which as we know isn’t an argument at all.

Vehicles and Monsters get permission to shoot stuff outside of Engagement Range provided they shoot everything in ER to death first. Nothing else does.

Not valid, but hey, it got Goonhammer some clicks.

Except everything else does have permission. You are given permission to select the unit to shoot with (there is no restriction against selecting a unit in Engagement Range) and you are given permission to select a target. You are only denied permission to resolve the attacks themselves, which doesn't matter if another set of attacks removes the enemies that are in Engagement Range.

It's not a simple matter of "it doesn't say I can't"; it's a matter of "the thing that says I can't no longer applies at the moment it becomes relevant".

 alextroy wrote:
Big Guns Never Tire uses the phrase Vehicle or Monster model four different times to note things that these models can do. By implication, those things cannot be done by models that lack those keywords. I therefore have to say the Goonhammer analysis is just wrong based on that.

Big Guns Never Tire says "A Vehicle or Monster model can make attacks with ranged weapons even when its unit is within Engagement Range of enemy units..."

This is to over-ride the normal shooting rules and has nothing to do with what this thread is talking about. the Goonhammer analysis seems to be correct though.

The "LOCKED IN COMBAT" rules say "Models cannot make attacks with ranged weapons while their unit is within Engagement Range of any enemy models..." P. 16 PDF rulebook.

The "BIG GUNS NEVER TIRE" rule allows VEHICLE and MONSTER models the ability to fire even when engaged over-riding the normal rules, as VEHICLE and MONSTER models do not normally have pistols.

A unit is allowed to target enemy units even when engaged. As long as those enemy units are visible to the firing model, there should be no issues with a unit splitting fire in hopes of using pistols against the unit it is engaged with, and then shooting other things.

Remember that you must select the target unit(s) for all of the ranged weapons its models are making attacks with before any attacks are resolved. So if you do not dedicate enough pistols to the engaged unit, you can't shoot with anything else.

That is a very incomplete reading of Big Guns Never Tire:

BIG GUNS NEVER TIRE
A Vehicle or Monster model can make attacks with ranged weapons even when its unit is within Engagement Range of enemy units, but it can only make such attacks against enemy units that it is within Engagement Range of. In such circumstances, Vehicle and Monster models can target an enemy unit even if other friendly units are within Engagement Range of the same enemy unit. Note that if a Vehicle or Monster unit has more than one ranged weapon, you can still choose to target units that are not within Engagement Range of the firing model’s unit, but they will only be able to make the attacks with that weapon if all enemy units within Engagement Range of the firing model’s unit have been destroyed when you come to resolve those attacks. In addition, when a Vehicle or Monster model shoots a Heavy weapon, subtract 1 from the hit rolls when resolving that weapon’s attacks while any enemy units are within Engagement Range of that model’s unit.

Monsters and Vehicles can shoot ranged weapons even if within Engagement Range of enemy units.

Monsters and Vehicles can target other units, but cannot resolve these attacks while any enemy models remain within their Engagement Range.

Subtract 1 from hit rolls made when Monsters and Vehicles shoot Heavy weapons while any enemy units remain within their Engagement Range.

Notice the handy bullet point that harkens back the full text (underlined for your reference) that Monsters and Vehicles can target other units while in Engagement Range? There is no need to call out an ability that is shared by all units.

 alextroy wrote:
That is a very incomplete reading of Big Guns Never Tire:

BIG GUNS NEVER TIRE
A Vehicle or Monster model can make attacks with ranged weapons even when its unit is within Engagement Range of enemy units, but it can only make such attacks against enemy units that it is within Engagement Range of. In such circumstances, Vehicle and Monster models can target an enemy unit even if other friendly units are within Engagement Range of the same enemy unit. Note that if a Vehicle or Monster unit has more than one ranged weapon, you can still choose to target units that are not within Engagement Range of the firing model’s unit, but they will only be able to make the attacks with that weapon if all enemy units within Engagement Range of the firing model’s unit have been destroyed when you come to resolve those attacks. In addition, when a Vehicle or Monster model shoots a Heavy weapon, subtract 1 from the hit rolls when resolving that weapon’s attacks while any enemy units are within Engagement Range of that model’s unit.

Monsters and Vehicles can shoot ranged weapons even if within Engagement Range of enemy units.

Monsters and Vehicles can target other units, but cannot resolve these attacks while any enemy models remain within their Engagement Range.

Subtract 1 from hit rolls made when Monsters and Vehicles shoot Heavy weapons while any enemy units remain within their Engagement Range.

Notice the handy bullet point that harkens back the full text (underlined for your reference) that Monsters and Vehicles can target other units while in Engagement Range? There is no need to call out an ability that is shared by all units.

GW often uses the "Note that..." verbiage to reiterate information that the reader should already know, just as a reminder. For example, they use it in the Select Targets section of the Shooting Phase, even though it's information that has already been provided elsewhere, but they added it again to make sure the reader understands the implications.

In this case, it's pretty clear that the "Note that..." section is added as a reminder.

Consensus out there is that this is NOT valid whatever Goonhammer say or how folk try to spin this, so good luck trying it with that TO you intend to spend 30mins arguing with. Jussayin, save yourself some drama.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Consensus out there is that this is NOT valid whatever Goonhammer say or how folk try to spin this, so good luck trying it with that TO you intend to spend 30mins arguing with. Jussayin, save yourself some drama.

If you've got an actual RAW argument against this, I'd love to see it.

No, really.

Before this thread, I hadn't even considered this a possibility. My initial reaction was that no, the models not shooting at the gaunt cannot make a shooting attack. I was even halfway through writing a reply along those lines. But then I realised that by the time they make the shooting attack, they're already out of Engagement Range, and they've already been allowed to select a target.

Unless I'm missing something then it's allowed, whatever you think the consensus is. RAW, it works.

 alextroy wrote:
Notice the handy bullet point that harkens back the full text (underlined for your reference) that Monsters and Vehicles can target other units while in Engagement Range? There is no need to call out an ability that is shared by all units.

the important word here is STILL, if the rule would be for vehicles and monsters only, it would be:
"you can choose to target units that are not within Engagement Range of the firing model’s unit"
but the sentence is:
"you can still choose to target units that are not within Engagement Range of the firing model’s unit"

which means BIG GUNS NEVER TIRE does not remove this possibility, hence it must be available in general (otherwise you would not be able to "still" use it)
so it confirms that you always can do it but vehicles and monsters have an additional rule that they can shoot into combat without pistols (and not an additional rule that allows to target units outside Engagement Range)

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Consensus out there is that this is NOT valid whatever Goonhammer say or how folk try to spin this, so good luck trying it with that TO you intend to spend 30mins arguing with. Jussayin, save yourself some drama.

This is not about what any TO may decide, they can do whatever they want, its their tournament, their rules. This is about RAW, and RAW says it works.

 alextroy wrote:
That is a very incomplete reading of Big Guns Never Tire:...

It does not matter if it was, because the Big Guns Never Tire rule just over-rides the normal shooting rules.

Normally, VEHICLE and MONSTER models do not have pistols, so they would never be able to shoot whilst within engagement range of an enemy unit. The Big Guns Never Tire rule allows them to make shooting attacks whilst within engagement range of an enemy unit.

 alextroy wrote:
Notice the handy bullet point that harkens back the full text (underlined for your reference) that Monsters and Vehicles can target other units while in Engagement Range? There is no need to call out an ability that is shared by all units.

But it is not shared by all units. In fact, "Models cannot make attacks with ranged weapons while their unit is within Engagement Range of any enemy models..." P. 16 PDF rulebook. So making attacks with ranged weapons while their unit is within Engagement Range of any enemy models is expressly dis-allowed.

Only units that have Pistols can make ranged attacks while in Engagement Range. (And thanks to the Big Guns Never Tire rule, VEHICLE and MONSTER models have an allowance to make attacks while in engagement range).

It is valid, as the prohibition is on actually making attacks: being selected as a unit to fire (step 1)and selecting targets (step 2) happens before this step in the shooting rules (we know what "make attacks" means, and it is when you actually roll dice for a weapon)

The note that...simply serves as a reminder. It isn't a new rule, but it is an explanation of a consequence of the fact that all units can be selected to fire while in engagement range, but not all units can fire many weapons

So it's entirely legal. Just sounds iffy to most

The bullets for targeting are worded slightly differently than the txt. It calls out the units cannot shoot, which would prevent you from selecting them as an eligible unit to shoot with.

I think the body of the text is the more exact rule, but as worded the bullet point is in contention with that.

One thing to note is that you can't draw line of sight through enemy models, so in some even more rare circumstances you may not be able to declare targets through enemy models with the non pistol weapons making them ineligible to shoot.

It gets even funnier with Guard orders. Got a guy that can give two orders to a unit?

Give them "Fix Bayonets" To fight as if the fight phase, then give them whatever shooting order you want and have them shoot pistols at whatever remains, and the lascannon at the tank.

The summary is not the rule. If there is a contradiction between the rule and the summary, the rule wins.

this is called exception proves the rule.

because vehicles and monsters are being excepted from the rule, the rule must exist. Otherwise, there would be no point providing the exception.

They have a note, a reminder

If you insist the rule exists, find it. Page and graph.

In most cases that I've seen "Note that..." is used as a synonym for "Remember that...". It's used to remind the reader of a piece of information that should already be known, but reiterated because it's relevant. GW uses the phrase all the time.

Ultimately, you have a base rule that tells you everyone can do a thing, then you have a reminder in a rule for VEHICLES and MONSTERS that they can do that thing. This doesn't stop others from being able to do that thing.

Ive just noticed that the tryanids have a stratagem for crusher stampede that allows a tryanid warrior unit to make ranged attacks using the big guns never tire rule as if they were monsters.

Food for thought, but I would argue that it's pretty clear that vehicles and monsters are the only units that can make use of the big guns never tire rule.