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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Yes, but 10th will completely wipe out the stupidity caused by 9th. So we can finally tear down this wall of special rules crap that we've been force fed for the last two years, and reduce bolter bloat, which is somehow a real thing, and now creating las bloat. Just make all small arms AP0 d1 again, and everyone back to their corners.

Bolt Rifles were fine at AP-1.

I disagree. Keeping access to a 4/1/1 weapon as basic issue, is what started the whole stupidity that is AP creep in the first place. Then the Stalker needed AP2, then AOC, then everyone needed easy access to AP3+ to even kill basic infantry, now we have auto-wounding las pistols, which are more deadly to Space Marines than a squad of standard Bolters...

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I disagree. Keeping access to a 4/1/1 weapon as basic issue, is what started the whole stupidity that is AP creep in the first place. Then the Stalker needed AP2, then AOC, then everyone needed easy access to AP3+ to even kill basic infantry, now we have auto-wounding las pistols, which are more deadly to Space Marines than a squad of standard Bolters...

The Stalker already had AP-2.

AoC came in because of other armies, not mirror matches.

Mirror matches had same ap creep.

Ap plenty isnt any more fine in marines than others. You can't just rein non-marine ap leaving marines silly ap amounts

tneva82 wrote:
Mirror matches had same ap creep.

Ap plenty isnt any more fine in marines than others. You can't just rein non-marine ap leaving marines silly ap amounts

But what's the silly AP amounts? Obviously Intercessors aren't broken or anything. You can argue the Doctrine system is lame, but it's hardly broken as it's only affecting a few weapons at a time.

You're making this argument in an edition where Shuriken weapons no longer need to roll that 6 because they already base AP, and that Fleshborers bore into armor better than a regular Bolter.

Certain factions have built in +1 AP to all bolter weapons. Some factions have basically auto-wounding flamers and Melta. It's not hard.

Then you have the fiasco that was space wolves being able to do silly things with TWC and Wulfen.

No, Space marines get multi-wound infantry, cheap as dirt units like Shield Guard, or DA Knights, which are the equivalent of most faction leaders, and youre honestly saying SM creep isn't a thing?

They have multiple units that literally broke this edition, and the previous edition. Melta Intercessors, HB Intercessors, Attack Bikes with Melta Spam, Melta Speeder spam, etc, etc. Then came the Black Templars and their magic fire pistols that suddenly heavy flamers, which had to be nerfed.

SM has always been the poster child faction of Lethality creep. Bolters are arguable, but the faction leading the AP charge isn't.

Heavy Bolters on the Heavy Intercessors was a problem?

Thats quite the take if I've ever seen it. Literally everything you listed managed to get outclassed really quick.

I am of course referring to the Executor HB, the one thats 48" H2 S5 AP2 D3. Once more, they created more bloat by creating special named Primaris weapons where none was needed. Also, these are being toted by what essentially is a 30ppm 15 wound squad. 30 if you go max. That was fine to launch, but 60ppm Terminators with S8 ap2 3d axes was too broken.

I don't get why people are arguing that SM didn't start the AP creep trend? Their whole gimmick at launch was everything that was AP 0 is now AP1, or can be made AP 1 during a phase?

So the new Dataslate lifts us up quite a bit. Armor of Contempt is gone and the Auspice, Esteemed Amalgam and Martial Discretion stratagems are no longer restricted to once per game use.

Also Core Infantry got their obsec back. Allarus Terminators seem way more tempting now and Wardens are no longer completely useless.

We definitely came out of this Dataslate stronger than we were before.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I am of course referring to the Executor HB, the one thats 48" H2 S5 AP2 D3. Once more, they created more bloat by creating special named Primaris weapons where none was needed. Also, these are being toted by what essentially is a 30ppm 15 wound squad. 30 if you go max. That was fine to launch, but 60ppm Terminators with S8 ap2 3d axes was too broken.

I don't get why people are arguing that SM didn't start the AP creep trend? Their whole gimmick at launch was everything that was AP 0 is now AP1, or can be made AP 1 during a phase?

This is one of the takes of all time.
1. The extra AP is gonna be for only a third of your army if it's a TAC build vs only Heavy or only Melee, etc.
2. Really? Your complaint is a two shot AP-2 weapon?

Venatarii look a lot better now. They are core infantry, so with their deepstrike ability and obsec they could be a decent alternative to jetbikes.

So my aquilon terminator are back in business then!

Now that the 3 troop choises are not prequiered, could we do 1 or 2 man units of Terminators instead?

Tiberias wrote:
So the new Dataslate lifts us up quite a bit. Armor of Contempt is gone and the Auspice, Esteemed Amalgam and Martial Discretion stratagems are no longer restricted to once per game use.

Also Core Infantry got their obsec back. Allarus Terminators seem way more tempting now and Wardens are no longer completely useless.

We definitely came out of this Dataslate stronger than we were before.

These are all significant boosts to the army that lift us from "Ugh what trash" to "Hey, pretty good actually"

 Niiai wrote:
Now that the 3 troop choises are not prequiered, could we do 1 or 2 man units of Terminators instead?

I'm laughing inside at the thought of an army of one -model terminator units and characters with 3 heavy support Telemon dreads.

Rule of 3 puts stop on that though

tneva82 wrote:
Rule of 3 puts stop on that though

Not if you Unleash the Lions. Been a long time since I've read up on that strat. Is it once per game?

 cuda1179 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Rule of 3 puts stop on that though

Not if you Unleash the Lions. Been a long time since I've read up on that strat. Is it once per game?

Nope. But it is still once per turn, and in the Command Phase, so they have to start the turn on the board.

Still, that makes a potent little group of HK Assassins. Send them out and watch the opponent waste time screening them out, rather than actually defending against the main thrust.

I would be cautiously optimistic about these changes.

Remember:

10th is right around the corner and the last time we were this good, they nerfed us in fairly short order. I don't want to spend the majority of 10th in the sub 40% club.

Hi guys,

I watched an Art of War video on the future meta ranking and Custodes.

They talked about Mech Custodes list with just Dreadnought and vehicules. Do you have more infos about it ? It will be played on LVO so maybe it is still a little top secret for the moment

Thanks !

 thori wrote:
Hi guys,

I watched an Art of War video on the future meta ranking and Custodes.

They talked about Mech Custodes list with just Dreadnought and vehicules. Do you have more infos about it ? It will be played on LVO so maybe it is still a little top secret for the moment

Thanks !

No secret. Custodes players have been playing 2-3 caladius, 3 ven dreads and/or Achillus dreads for months. It's a strong build, but once you go against Votann or Imperial Guard you just fold like paper with a mechanised list like that.

Yeah, not really a major trick to throw the best dreads in the game into a list. Only the big problem is 9th has made Custodes into Paper People. Everyone has a way to shut down invulns, or easy access to multi-wound high value, low cost shooting. Basically, the new (rules wise) Space Marine Close Combat Terminator squads cost almost half as much as our cheapest units, and do far more powerful things. With the new list building rules, expect to see tides of Terminator armor. Sporting Thunder Hammers and SS. Hell, even the new Inceptors with free plasma eat our lunch.

If your Marine opponent drops some Plasmaceptors and shoots them at one of your units, pop Emperor's Auspice to turn their rerolls off and watch them blow themselves up. Probably won't save whatever they were shooting at, but it'll be funny!

I ve been playing dreads for months. different configs like: 6 contemptors (Achilles, galadius, venerable), 2 galadius, 2 telemons and so on. I only own one caladium so that has limited me but still; the build works.

I always try to run a Death Star of 2 or 3x3 sagittarums and Trajan too and feel they are just amazing straight up. With AoC finally gone they will be even better.

I think with auspice being available each turn its rather simple what I want to do now: infantry spam off of emperors chosen for the rerolls. Lots of CP and just keeps everything alive and trample on objectives. I love that build.

Here's the kicker, with AOC gone, most SM armies will be entirely First-born Terminators with TH/SS combos, backed up by a "like" captain. Now that literally everything is free.

This means hordes of 2+4++ bodies, swinging massive flat 3 damage hammers at everything in sight. Depending on the chapter it gets even stupider.

Yeah, 9th needs to be put down. This has gotten out of hand.

rule of three kind of keeps that stuff honest, but yeah, hammer termies will be brutal against us.

On the other hand. five of them charge three of our shield dudes. We pop transhuman they hit on fours, they can't reroll through auspice, we save on fours. if they go fury of the first, we counter with shield wall. 16 attacks become 8 become 4 and then we save on threes (fours in the doctrine but thats not until t3). so one dead typically. Maybe 2.

but now we hit them with three of our guys and the 2 surviving dudes. thats 20 attacks hitting on 2s with at least a reroll from EC. So thats like.. 17-18 through wounding on 3thats 12ish saves on fours lets say they make 6. Thats 3 dead and now we're just not going away anytime soon.

I know they are cheaper and Im not saying its beautiful, but we are still better in that exchange, id say.

Scoundrel80 wrote:
rule of three kind of keeps that stuff honest, but yeah, hammer termies will be brutal against us.

On the other hand. five of them charge three of our shield dudes. We pop transhuman they hit on fours, they can't reroll through auspice, we save on fours. if they go fury of the first, we counter with shield wall. 16 attacks become 8 become 4 and then we save on threes (fours in the doctrine but thats not until t3). so one dead typically. Maybe 2.

but now we hit them with three of our guys and the 2 surviving dudes. thats 20 attacks hitting on 2s with at least a reroll from EC. So thats like.. 17-18 through wounding on 3thats 12ish saves on fours lets say they make 6. Thats 3 dead and now we're just not going away anytime soon.

I know they are cheaper and Im not saying its beautiful, but we are still better in that exchange, id say.

Unless I'm gravely mistaken your math is off.

5 terminators with TH and stormshields charging 3 custodes is 16 attacks at dmg3. Even with transhuman and auspice that's flat 2 unsaved wounds, so 2 dead custodes. If it's space wolves they probably kill one more.

3 custodes charging 5 terminators with stormshields and hammers is 9 attacks at dmg 2 against a 4++. We hit on 2s, wound on 3s and they save on 4s...thats 2,5 unsaved wounds sooo one dead terminator....doesn't seem like much of a contest to me. If it's Dark Angels it gets a bit worse due to perma-transhuman.

This is why I've been preaching since the beginning of the edition that custodes should have been more expensive per model but should get an extra wound.

I don't much care anymore, but for the record: in my opinion giving space marines hundreds of points of free wargear was a massive mistake and an astoundingly lazy attempt to balance the game....whatever that's even supposed to mean and at this point, who cares?

Tiberias wrote:

Scoundrel80 wrote:
rule of three kind of keeps that stuff honest, but yeah, hammer termies will be brutal against us.

On the other hand. five of them charge three of our shield dudes. We pop transhuman they hit on fours, they can't reroll through auspice, we save on fours. if they go fury of the first, we counter with shield wall. 16 attacks become 8 become 4 and then we save on threes (fours in the doctrine but thats not until t3). so one dead typically. Maybe 2.

but now we hit them with three of our guys and the 2 surviving dudes. thats 20 attacks hitting on 2s with at least a reroll from EC. So thats like.. 17-18 through wounding on 3thats 12ish saves on fours lets say they make 6. Thats 3 dead and now we're just not going away anytime soon.

I know they are cheaper and Im not saying its beautiful, but we are still better in that exchange, id say.

Unless I'm gravely mistaken your math is off.

5 terminators with TH and stormshields charging 3 custodes is 16 attacks at dmg3. Even with transhuman and auspice that's flat 2 unsaved wounds, so 2 dead custodes. If it's space wolves they probably kill one more.

3 custodes charging 5 terminators with stormshields and hammers is 9 attacks at dmg 2 against a 4++. We hit on 2s, wound on 3s and they save on 4s...thats 2,5 unsaved wounds sooo one dead terminator....doesn't seem like much of a contest to me. If it's Dark Angels it gets a bit worse due to perma-transhuman.

This is why I've been preaching since the beginning of the edition that custodes should have been more expensive per model but should get an extra wound.

I don't much care anymore, but for the record: in my opinion giving space marines hundreds of points of free wargear was a massive mistake and an astoundingly lazy attempt to balance the game....whatever that's even supposed to mean and at this point, who cares?

Everyone keeps pointing to Space Wolves, but don't BA or FT or even Death Company Marines with Thunder Hammers and Jump Packs? I mean, Blood Angels Melee Terminators getting +1 to wounding, and then a horde of Death Company Marines getting first turn charges with Jump Packs, Thunder Hammers, and a free 5+++? I mean, this new "balance" is me thinking GW has completely gone off the deep end. Say hello to your new SM Overlords boys. They come in tons of different colors.

4+/2+ on the offense isn’t as good as 3+/3+.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

Scoundrel80 wrote:
rule of three kind of keeps that stuff honest, but yeah, hammer termies will be brutal against us.

On the other hand. five of them charge three of our shield dudes. We pop transhuman they hit on fours, they can't reroll through auspice, we save on fours. if they go fury of the first, we counter with shield wall. 16 attacks become 8 become 4 and then we save on threes (fours in the doctrine but thats not until t3). so one dead typically. Maybe 2.

but now we hit them with three of our guys and the 2 surviving dudes. thats 20 attacks hitting on 2s with at least a reroll from EC. So thats like.. 17-18 through wounding on 3thats 12ish saves on fours lets say they make 6. Thats 3 dead and now we're just not going away anytime soon.

I know they are cheaper and Im not saying its beautiful, but we are still better in that exchange, id say.

Unless I'm gravely mistaken your math is off.

5 terminators with TH and stormshields charging 3 custodes is 16 attacks at dmg3. Even with transhuman and auspice that's flat 2 unsaved wounds, so 2 dead custodes. If it's space wolves they probably kill one more.

3 custodes charging 5 terminators with stormshields and hammers is 9 attacks at dmg 2 against a 4++. We hit on 2s, wound on 3s and they save on 4s...thats 2,5 unsaved wounds sooo one dead terminator....doesn't seem like much of a contest to me. If it's Dark Angels it gets a bit worse due to perma-transhuman.

This is why I've been preaching since the beginning of the edition that custodes should have been more expensive per model but should get an extra wound.

I don't much care anymore, but for the record: in my opinion giving space marines hundreds of points of free wargear was a massive mistake and an astoundingly lazy attempt to balance the game....whatever that's even supposed to mean and at this point, who cares?

Everyone keeps pointing to Space Wolves, but don't BA or FT or even Death Company Marines with Thunder Hammers and Jump Packs? I mean, Blood Angels Melee Terminators getting +1 to wounding, and then a horde of Death Company Marines getting first turn charges with Jump Packs, Thunder Hammers, and a free 5+++? I mean, this new "balance" is me thinking GW has completely gone off the deep end. Say hello to your new SM Overlords boys. They come in tons of different colors.

Yeah, my marh was just yada yada math but I wasn’t that much off. In my example I went in with the two surviving guards(should prolly be one as you say) plus three more 😅