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How do!

So kind of an inversion of the usual “unit X has been around since Y’ stuff that comes up.

Now, we know that some kits remain available far longer than others. And we know some are replaced in a relative blink of the eye. But what I don’t think I’ve ever seen discussion on what the shelf life of a kit should be, and of course the all important why.

I’m hoping this might prove an interesting copy as speaking solely for myself, it’s easy to forget just how old some kits I still consider to be new actually are. Example? The humble Rhino. It’s a proper workhorse of the range, providing the chassis for a wide range of kits. I still erroneously consider that a new kit. But I’m pretty sure it was released around 2000, meaning it’s served far longer that it’s preceding kit, which was released around 1989/1990. And in the scale of such things, it’s really not that much younger than the aged Falcon Kit.

So…yeah. Over to you guys.

How long should it last?
Well imo this is one of those questions that is answered by the age old saying.

If it aint broke, dont fix it.
The rhino chassis was made once, and made right, it does not really need a new kit. I do think that with each codex put out, older units in that army should at least be looked at for "update" bits.
Good example of that would be when deathwatch came out, they put out an upgrade spue for Rhinos

I think that if the kit works and does not really need to be a new one, that they should atleast put out some new bits for it every 5 years or so, at least for flavor.

Yeah, no need to put a date on things. If its a good kit (with all appropriate options) and the masters are fine, no need to change just for the sake of it.

I’m hoping this might prove an interesting copy as speaking solely for myself, it’s easy to forget just how old some kits I still consider to be new actually are. Example? The humble Rhino. It’s a proper workhorse of the range, providing the chassis for a wide range of kits. I still erroneously consider that a new kit. But I’m pretty sure it was released around 2000, meaning it’s served far longer that it’s preceding kit, which was released around 1989/1990. And in the scale of such things, it’s really not that much younger than the aged Falcon Kit.

For example... the current rhino is a fine kit. The original one was a piece of junk (fair enough for being an early outing into vehicles and plastic), and done in a completely different scale.

The falcon is also a perfectly fine kit. The pilots are terrible, but I'd really hate to see it redesigned and changed to have bigger pilot compartments or whatever.

---
Really, the priority still needs to be getting kits out to replace finecast. Still.

Greatly depends on advances in materials.
For example, there are many metal and resin kits which have to be redone simply because plastic exists.

If GW started using a better material, this would immediately invalidate everything that isn't made in that material, if there is a significant difference in quality like failcast to plastic.

Apart from that, vehicles last longer. It is far easier to make a good model for a vehicle than to make a good trooper.

Until the mold wears out or breaks. Because that's basically the reality of the situation. Plastic injection molds might be cheaper than ever to manufacture today, but they're still a large capital investment and a company should squeeze as much use out of them as they can.

I'm fairly sure some range refreshes, like the plastic Fire Warriors, were due to molds wearing out. I had at least one box of Fire Warriors that had some pretty brutal mold lines, and a few months later the new FW kit popped out. I imagine the plastic Eldar Guardians were reaching that point as well.

Whatever the answer it should be more uniform than it is. Space Marines get a multi-kit major range update every edition; everyone else gets maybe one every ten years.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Whatever the answer it should be more uniform than it is. Space Marines get a multi-kit major range update every edition; everyone else gets maybe one every ten years.

when was the last time guard got new models? Scions? can we even really count that since that was its own army as well?

Thing is that I’d be totally fine with just keeping classic boyz. Not a huge fan of the new ones, and like the sentiment has been, the old ones worked just fine. Maybe an upgrade sprue in there for some more wargear could be cool.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Whatever the answer it should be more uniform than it is. Space Marines get a multi-kit major range update every edition; everyone else gets maybe one every ten years.

when was the last time guard got new models? Scions? can we even really count that since that was its own army as well?

Are you counting FW or BL releases? Because the guard have gotten a ton of new sculpts to their infantry. Maybe not like an entire line, but when 90% of your forces are just copy pasted guys with las-rifles, who cares? You have awesome new Col models, SGT models, and commissar models. Not to mention the Ghost line. Oh, and Krieg.

im talking just core GW launches.
OH gaunts ghosts that right they got them

Either way though i really do think its a case of, if it aint broke dont fix it. I think the best thing GW could do would be put out upgrade sprues, that would be probably the coolest.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
im talking just core GW launches.
OH gaunts ghosts that right they got them

Either way though i really do think its a case of, if it aint broke dont fix it. I think the best thing GW could do would be put out upgrade sprues, that would be probably the coolest.

You mean the ones they LITERALLY JUST RELEASED? With female heads, and a proper amount of special weapons?

Yes like those ones, i want more of that, stuffs super cool because it totally breaths new life into the old kits.

Like oh man having some of those kits for like say vehicles, like when they did it for the GSC with the guard kits that was awesome. Like upgrade kits like that totally extend the life of a kit that has not been upgraded in a while.

I'm pretty sure the answer is going to boil down to: never stop making kits I like, and immediately replace kits I don't like.

Well, certainly less than 20 years. And please, do not rise the cost of plastic production again. There is no argument to be made regarding 26 years of unchanged Warp Spiders or Warlocks other than "because Space Marines", as they weren't updated even when GW still introduced new metal models. Same goes for Phoenix Lords, which were already 16 years old when GW switched to finecast.

So how long should a kit last? IMHO not really that much longer than an average period of investment of an average hobbyist, twice that time at the most. Longer than that and you begin to bleed players who are not interested in expanding to a different faction. GW seems to understand this simple truth only when it comes to Space Marine players, because as I mentioned above, they over invested in this faction and only recently try to balance things out a bit, hence all those large xenos and non-SM imperial releases.

I feel like the type of kit should affect this too. A core troop choice that is likely owned in large amounts? Those should be built to last.

The Dark Eldar models are from about 10 years ago now, and I'd say they're pretty much in the sweet spot for me. They're detailed enough yet not dripping with excessive gubbins that take forever to paint. Everything goes together well, there's a reasonable range of bits and they're interchangeable between kits. I don't really feel that they need urgently replacing.

Go back another 10 years and you hit stuff like the current Khorne Berserkers. They look clumsily posed and outdated now.

So, about 15 years???

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Whatever the answer it should be more uniform than it is. Space Marines get a multi-kit major range update every edition; everyone else gets maybe one every ten years.

Space marines get a lot of new stuff to be sure, but they also outsell everything else by a wide margin, so their molds are probably more likely to need replacement on a regular basis.

GW certainly should know how many units (in general) a mold will last and it will certainly inform how often they refresh a range.

It should last exactly 13 years, 118 days. I have determined, via science, that this is the mathematically optimum lifespan for a 40k product.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Whatever the answer it should be more uniform than it is. Space Marines get a multi-kit major range update every edition; everyone else gets maybe one every ten years.

when was the last time guard got new models? Scions? can we even really count that since that was its own army as well?

Are you counting FW or BL releases? Because the guard have gotten a ton of new sculpts to their infantry. Maybe not like an entire line, but when 90% of your forces are just copy pasted guys with las-rifles, who cares? You have awesome new Col models, SGT models, and commissar models. Not to mention the Ghost line. Oh, and Krieg.

They should really have updated the old Cadian and Catachan kits instead of just shoving 25 heads and single set of special weapons into the box and jacking the price. How do you think SM players would feel if instead of updating the Tac Squad from 3rd Ed, GW waited until now to just toss in 25 more heads/helmets with a set of Special Weapons? Or even better, dump a single set of one of each Heavy Weapon into it as well and have it double as the Devastators kit. All that while doubling the price and then some. Because that's effectively a better treatment than what the current Cadian Shock Troops box is to Guard players.

And that's not even considering all the Chapter Upgrades SM have had over the years while the Guard has had entire lines vanish.

Voss wrote:
Yeah, no need to put a date on things. If its a good kit (with all appropriate options) and the masters are fine, no need to change just for the sake of it.

The falcon is also a perfectly fine kit. The pilots are terrible, but I'd really hate to see it redesigned and changed to have bigger pilot compartments or whatever.

---
Really, the priority still needs to be getting kits out to replace finecast. Still.

Personally I think the Falcon could be improved, especially in the turret. There's no reason any eldar turret should have a gunner - they should all be automated like the wave serpent one.

I mean, falcons have more crew than the current phantom titan....

I think there are some aspects of the design that could be refined, a bit like the new guardian models.


IMO a kit should last as long as the design paradigm the game is using. More than just getting redesigned kits, it also meant marines kept getting the latest game paradigm - so new weapons, or different layouts of equipment etc.

compare that to the old guardian sprue with almost nothing on it.


So long as every army has an equal slice of the game compatibility and modelling options pie, the sprues can last a while.

Spoletta wrote:
Greatly depends on advances in materials.
For example, there are many metal and resin kits which have to be redone simply because plastic exists.

If GW started using a better material, this would immediately invalidate everything that isn't made in that material, if there is a significant difference in quality like failcast to plastic.

Apart from that, vehicles last longer. It is far easier to make a good model for a vehicle than to make a good trooper.

Otoh this all must be plastic is what gives silly character prices.



Plastic isn't superior for everything. Right material for right model would be player friendly.

You know, coming from lotr... not a single plastic lotr kit has been replaced to this day, not even the Goblins or last alliance sprues from 2001 that flooded the market in a way you can still get them for 20ct/ mini. The Goblins would be nice to see renewed though, they don't really hold up to modern standards unlike most of the line.

Concerning 40K?
There are kits that are pretty bad right from release (old Chaos terminators and... new Chaos terminators) and should be replaced or have an upgrade sprue added sooner rather than later.
But perfect kits like the boyz, nobz, devastators, or most vehicles? Leave them alone, they work fine, allow positioning, have many bits and look great.

I mean there will probably be progress in how GW designs and produces models, so just like Cadians and Catachans look pretty terrible next to miniatures that were made during the last... 12 years I'd say. In 12 years this might be true for some of the models that we currently consider good enough.

Edit:
The new Autarch or the Chaos Terminator Lord/ Sorcerer kit should also be the Gold standard for how HQ kits should be designed in plastic. Concerning details the material is still inferior to the old metal or 3rd party resin from WGA or ArtelW, so in order to stand out/ be on par with others GW would have to sell their plastic HQs either really cheap (Ha!) or provide options and bits.

Agree with much posted here:

1/ With few exceptions, most plastic kits are fine.
2/ But all kits should be plastic- replace resin and metal.
3/ Upgrade sprues and kits are a nice way to update some existing kits- especially vehicles- rather than reinventing the wheel.

Honestly I think it depends. There's some stuff that is definitely showing its age, which the Eldar and Imperial Guard absolutely were.
The fact that bloody space marines get a bajillionis minis is a pain in the arse.

It's a thing that GW have never stopped doing which is leaving armies by the wayside and then complaining they don't sell well and using that as an excuse to not update the minis.

Look at the poor Bretonnians for instance, although they were a great line of figures, they just never got updates.

GW are perhaps now getting to grips with the fact that updating all the ranges is a good thing, because people go out and buy new stuff.

 Hellebore wrote:

Voss wrote:

The falcon is also a perfectly fine kit. The pilots are terrible, but I'd really hate to see it redesigned and changed to have bigger pilot compartments or whatever.
---
Really, the priority still needs to be getting kits out to replace finecast. Still.

Personally I think the Falcon could be improved, especially in the turret. There's no reason any eldar turret should have a gunner - they should all be automated like the wave serpent one.

I think the Falcon kit is actually quite bad. Not 1st gen plastic Land Speeder bad, but the hull needs serious work. You can tell it comes from a time before digital design and the hull parts just don't fit well at all. The design aesthetic of the dude in the giant turret is suspect as well. The Wave Serpent looks much better.

 Arschbombe wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:

Voss wrote:

The falcon is also a perfectly fine kit. The pilots are terrible, but I'd really hate to see it redesigned and changed to have bigger pilot compartments or whatever.
---
Really, the priority still needs to be getting kits out to replace finecast. Still.

Personally I think the Falcon could be improved, especially in the turret. There's no reason any eldar turret should have a gunner - they should all be automated like the wave serpent one.

I think the Falcon kit is actually quite bad. Not 1st gen plastic Land Speeder bad, but the hull needs serious work. You can tell it comes from a time before digital design and the hull parts just don't fit well at all. The design aesthetic of the dude in the giant turret is suspect as well. The Wave Serpent looks much better.

The Falcon kit is awful - enough to say, that you have to sand the panels because they have process artefacts all over them. And design wise, turrets of Falcons/Spinners/Prisms always looked awkwardly attached to the main body, breaking the lines completely, because they are too large. Also, Type II FW kits for both Falcon and Wave Serpent improve the lines a lot but still, I personally think that the best looking Falcon chassis tank is the Warp Hunter. So I wouldn't mind at all a revised kit with FW additions built in the main design, without the gunner and overall better fitting with the Lynx, Scorpion and Cobra designs (apart form the awkward Cobra gunner bubble).

How long is a piece of string?

A kit should last as long as it serves its purpose - that is, as long as it maintains enough sales to justify its shelf space.

If a kit stops selling - whether it's because it no longer fits the aesthetic that its buyers want, or does not match the quality that buyers want - then it's time to either stop producing it or make changes that will increase sales again.

nou wrote:

 Arschbombe wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:

Voss wrote:

The falcon is also a perfectly fine kit. The pilots are terrible, but I'd really hate to see it redesigned and changed to have bigger pilot compartments or whatever.
---
Really, the priority still needs to be getting kits out to replace finecast. Still.

Personally I think the Falcon could be improved, especially in the turret. There's no reason any eldar turret should have a gunner - they should all be automated like the wave serpent one.

I think the Falcon kit is actually quite bad. Not 1st gen plastic Land Speeder bad, but the hull needs serious work. You can tell it comes from a time before digital design and the hull parts just don't fit well at all. The design aesthetic of the dude in the giant turret is suspect as well. The Wave Serpent looks much better.

The Falcon kit is awful - enough to say, that you have to sand the panels because they have process artefacts all over them. And design wise, turrets of Falcons/Spinners/Prisms always looked awkwardly attached to the main body, breaking the lines completely, because they are too large. Also, Type II FW kits for both Falcon and Wave Serpent improve the lines a lot but still, I personally think that the best looking Falcon chassis tank is the Warp Hunter. So I wouldn't mind at all a revised kit with FW additions built in the main design, without the gunner and overall better fitting with the Lynx, Scorpion and Cobra designs (apart form the awkward Cobra gunner bubble).

I agree with both of you. I have several falcons and the model is a pain to put together. If you compare the falcon body to fire prism turret it's night and day. The turret fits together nicely the details are sharp and surface is smooth. I would love it if we got a new falcon body

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Whatever the answer it should be more uniform than it is. Space Marines get a multi-kit major range update every edition; everyone else gets maybe one every ten years.

when was the last time guard got new models? Scions? can we even really count that since that was its own army as well?

Summer of 2021. Or did you miss, or for some reason aren't counting, the plastic Krieg that arrived in the KT relaunch?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Are you counting FW or BL releases? Because the guard have gotten a ton of new sculpts to their infantry. Maybe not like an entire line, but when 90% of your forces are just copy pasted guys with las-rifles, who cares? You have awesome new Col models, SGT models, and commissar models. Not to mention the Ghost line. Oh, and Krieg.

You can't even really count FW, because after the Krieg range was finished for them...there was basically nothing 40k-wise. 30k got the Solar Auxilia.

Also, the "new Colonel model"? That was intended to be a store anniversary one.
The Sergeant? She was a store opening model.
There was a single Commissar model, in the form of Severina Raine, who was a weirdly specific one tied to a brand new novel.
And Ghost "line"? It's a single box. The rules are all characters.

Krieg has been a welcome surprise but let's not pretend that it was anything but a single Troop choice.