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H.B.M.C. wrote: It's the inconsistency of it all, and the fact that it's not done to make things simpler for players, because if it was it'd be done across the entire army, not just the two kits that don't have enough options built into the sprue.
That's why I default to leaving them with the rules they have, rather than consolidation, because if you're not going to consolidate everything, then why bother? It'd be like running file compression on a bunch of files, but leaving some uncompressed for no reason.
Yeah but I wouldn't bother touching the codex if the Terminator entry was gonna read "This unit contains 1 Terminator with 1 Chainaxe, 1 Terminator with 1 Power Sword, etc."
You want the rules they have until it actually happens.
H.B.M.C. wrote: It's the inconsistency of it all, and the fact that it's not done to make things simpler for players, because if it was it'd be done across the entire army, not just the two kits that don't have enough options built into the sprue.
That's why I default to leaving them with the rules they have, rather than consolidation, because if you're not going to consolidate everything, then why bother? It'd be like running file compression on a bunch of files, but leaving some uncompressed for no reason.
Yeah but I wouldn't bother touching the codex if the Terminator entry was gonna read "This unit contains 1 Terminator with 1 Chainaxe, 1 Terminator with 1 Power Sword, etc."
You want the rules they have until it actually happens.
No, we want the options they had for the last 20 years.
H.B.M.C. wrote: It's the inconsistency of it all, and the fact that it's not done to make things simpler for players, because if it was it'd be done across the entire army, not just the two kits that don't have enough options built into the sprue.
That's why I default to leaving them with the rules they have, rather than consolidation, because if you're not going to consolidate everything, then why bother? It'd be like running file compression on a bunch of files, but leaving some uncompressed for no reason.
Yeah but I wouldn't bother touching the codex if the Terminator entry was gonna read "This unit contains 1 Terminator with 1 Chainaxe, 1 Terminator with 1 Power Sword, etc."
You want the rules they have until it actually happens.
No, we want the options they had for the last 20 years.
Oh trust me same here. Hell I'd love to return to being able to take 3 man squads (simply because I liked taking 4 man squads).
Unfortunately for NEW AND IMPROVED GW the closest we'll get with the old loadout is Power Swords +1 and limited Fists to take in the squad. I'm not looking forward to the 1 Combi-Plasma/Flamer/Melta that's gonna happen like with Blightlords.
Although Blightlords are weird since you can't actually build the basic loadout ad far as I know via five each of Sword or Axe. Probably expect you to default to taking a Flail.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
H.B.M.C. wrote: I think he knows that, but is more making the point that if the choice is between accursed weapons or this, he'll take accursed weapons.
I'm kinda of the same mind.
God I hate the Sword Brethren entry so much
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/04/01 05:24:45
A. A unit that has full options and a box that has the bits to make that. We don't actually have this, because it doesn't exist, so they have moved to option B.
B. A unit that has consolidated options so that the bits in the box don't actually matter. You can give things whatever, to a certain level at least. This is where we are. It's at least slightly better than C.
C. "This unit can take 1 of x and 1 of y and 2 of z and the rest of the unit has u." The worst of the bunch because it's the worst of the box not having enough options but also having to split things up into a bunch of different dice rolls.
So we're at B. Would love to be at A, though, but that's clearly not going to happen.
Here's hoping they take a page from Warhammer Total War 3 and make the daemon prince super customisable (maybe not with specific things from the kit, but with special rules that do not need specific things modelled on).
Not just the Damonprince, more relevant are the mortal HQ's and elites.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Back in the day I had too many unpainted models for my Night Lords. So I created a new CSM warband with a Nurgle affiliation to paint those minis. More then a decade later GW published for the first time a Death Guard codex. Being intrigued I immediately checked it out only to discover that the Terminators didn´t have access to power gloves anymore. Unsurprisingly I put the book back onto the shelf leaving the store while muttering F*** Gee-Dubs.
They wanted to force their new Death Guard Terminator kit down my throat but I smelled that ploy ten miles against the wind.
EviscerationPlague wrote: I'm not looking forward to the 1 Combi-Plasma/Flamer/Melta that's gonna happen like with Blightlords.
They should just give them generic combi-weapons (shoot like combi-bolters) and make the combi-plasma/flamer/melta stratagems. Hell, if we make each one a separate stratagem we can even copy-paste the wording. That's 3 statagems in the bank! It looks like we're clocking out early today lads!
EviscerationPlague wrote: I'm not looking forward to the 1 Combi-Plasma/Flamer/Melta that's gonna happen like with Blightlords.
They should just give them generic combi-weapons (shoot like combi-bolters) and make the combi-plasma/flamer/melta stratagems. Hell, if we make each one a separate stratagem we can even copy-paste the wording. That's 3 statagems in the bank! It looks like we're clocking out early today lads!
I would unironically prefer this.
The biggest indicator someone is a loser is them complaining about 3d printers or piracy.
I'm very suspicious about the Accursed Weapons, the new Chosen models and 10th edition.
You get the new models, you see the 9th edition rules, you build your squads of new Chosen with 1 of each melee weapon per squad because it looks cool.
10th rolls around, GW says "we've heard your feedback" and now the datasheet is like a normal Space Marine sheet and the best load outs are 5 Chosen all with Axes, 5 Chosen all with Talons, 5 Chosen all with etc. etc.
Turning back to the recent clockworkchris leaks.
BL, not too happy they have the put a unit in every doctrine strategem, as that is codex wide in Space Marines, same issue with transhuman being Nurgle locked, but being codex wide but at least limited to Primaris in SM.
AL, auto explode can be very strong in some metas, e.g. Hammerheads and Devilfish do d6 MWs within 6" currently.
The transhitman prayer that also turns off re-rolls to hit, that is a strong buff, especially as there is a source of -1 already (Nurgle spell or AL at range) and it can be combined with transhuman (Nurgle again). It leans towards building a single very tanky unit. The other option is transhitman plus the Tzeentch 4++, I'm the Harlequin now! We've just got to find the one tanky unit, 30W T5 Possesed blob maybe or 30W of Terminators? BL might be good in combination if they either have some way to give obsec or their old strat to remove other people's obsec or IW for more survivability stacking.
Togusa wrote: A vocal section of the community spent 6th, 7th, and 8th editions complaining about balance and testing. One issue with warhammer is that the amount of options some units had, was absurd, with data sheets taking up a full page of a codex or more on some of them. The more options you have, the harder it is to keep it balanced.
Take for example a flamer and a marine/guardsman. A 12 inch auto hitting flamer on a chaos marine is not the same as a 12 inch auto hitting flamer on a chaff guardsman unit. They're both equal in most respects, save toughness. Because the flamer auto hits, the lower ballistic skill of the guardsman doesn't matter, and thus the option is better for the guardsman, he's cheaper and just as effective. Now imagine if flamers were changed to be S8 instead of S4. All of a sudden that would break the "balance" of the wargear for the guardsmen. The Marine still has other, better options they can capitalize on, but an S8 Auto hit flamer would be an automatic take for the guardsmen.
Which does the community want, balance or free for all? Because I don't think both can coexist without one of them suffering.
I would prefer large number of units not be made invalid and models removed from the game as part of what seems to be a sort of 'sterilising process'.
That's the nature of the beast. I understand your feelings, they're likely the feelings of most of the community. But as I said, the solution isn't simple. Balancing 2000+ data sheets over 6-10 different games, many with dozens of options of their own is going to be next to impossible for GW, as they are already not that great at game balance to begin with. With all the screaming for game balance to be a priority, they're making the best choice they have, which is to reduce the complexity and scope of the game, an easy way to do that is remove options.
For all the complaining I've been seeing about the loss of the Jump pack Chaos lord, I can honestly tell you that having been a part of the hobby for nearly 8 years, and having played in four different US states during that time, I've never seen a jump pack lord on the table that wasn't a Blood Angel. People obviously have them and use them, but they're not that popular and that is something that I am sure GW market research has shown. Axing weaker or limited things is the easiest solution to them.
You haven't seen a Jump Lord, in eight years. Not one. Only foot lords, and Terminator Lords. BULL. You're a day early, buy a calendar.
No, I haven't seen anyone in any of my play areas use Jump marines outside of the loyalist kind when smashers were all the rage. I've never actually seen mutilators or Warp Talons outside of box art either. It is possible there were some at LVO when I was there, but I didn't see them either. As for what I have seen, yes, it's mostly been terminator lords or the special characters. For the last four years I've been the only CSM player in my local meta as well, meaning if I don't run it, no one at my store is either.
So, based on your very anecdotal evidence, fully half of which comes from a meta where you are the only CSM player, meaning that "if you don't run it, no one else will", you've decided that Jump Lords are "not that popular" and need to be "Axed", because apparently gw's "market research" consists entirely of you. Yup, makes sense.
ClockworkZion wrote:I do hope these rumord about option removal prove incorrect if only because I wanted to kitbash Kharne and the World Claimer to make a Berserker Lord if I ever did World Eaters. Just thought a flying Berserker would look cool.
Night Lord players would feel the sting the most since building around jump packs is their whole schtick.
Yes, we will. The last thing I need is for all of my characters to be plodding buff bots that can't keep up with the rest of my army. Night Lords characters work best as nasty melee beatsticks. With jump packs. Not aura tokens.
So, based on your very anecdotal evidence, fully half of which comes from a meta where you are the only CSM player, meaning that "if you don't run it, no one else will", you've decided that Jump Lords are "not that popular" and need to be "Axed", because apparently gw's "market research" consists entirely of you. Yup, makes sense.
You would think that he would get half way through writing out that explanation and stop in shame as he realised how silly it sounds when put in writing, but I guess at least we can admire his tenacity?
H.B.M.C. wrote: I think he knows that, but is more making the point that if the choice is between accursed weapons or this, he'll take accursed weapons.
I'm kinda of the same mind.
Ah, I misunderstood. Yeah, THAT is pretty much worst case scenario.
So I haven't said anything in this thread yet but I have to point a few things out.
1. This accursed weapon idea is a good idea. They already did this with harliquins and their different weapons, if they do the same here I don't see any issues.
2. This is actually great if your a modeler who does crazy things. I have a 5 man terminator which I gave each a special type of weapon back in 3.5, they were my apostles of war. 1 had a hammer, 1 a fist, 1 a flail like weapon, 1 a melta bomb attached to a giant ass spike.... you get the idea. Now it's easier for my opponents and me to say what those are, the fist is a fist the rest are accursed weapons. I can use them again.
3. This leaves a ton of room on the floor for modeling, doesn't matter what they look like they are equipped with accursed weapons. From my modeling pov I love this design space idea. I wana model a terminator using a cadian as a weapon? Accursed weapon. Give one a scythe? Accursed weapon. Possibilities for modeling are endless. This makes me happy.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Yes, we will. The last thing I need is for all of my characters to be plodding buff bots that can't keep up with the rest of my army. Night Lords characters work best as nasty melee beatsticks. With jump packs. Not aura tokens.
Ah, yes, NL beatsticks. Even though the Legion is universally described as cowardly and NL characters tend to get owned (or run) from equivalents from other SM forces. To the point a single eldar can wipe out almost a whole warband in melee
But maybe I am wrong and they are all beatsticks with jump packs. Let's take a look at their iconic characters. First, Sevatar. Arguably a beatstick, which, according to his description, makes him different to every other NL character. Oops. Also, his mini doesn't have pack. Oops. Ditto with Kheron Ophion, the only other 30K NL that can be called any competent in melee (in fact his reputation for bravery made him one of the tiny minority in his legion and universally despised for that). I wonder if they didn't get the pack memo or something?
Then we have Talos from 40K. Again, no jump pack. Oops. Is so 'beatstick' he ends his life blowing himself up to stop a single eldar woman. Double oops. Despite being mediocre melee combatant, somehow beats without effort every single NL officer coveting his sword (and funnily enough, uses stolen one because NL can't make good melee weapons) and position. Triple oops [and for the record, none of his mooks in the warband used pack either, in fact they explicitly prefer heavy guns to make up their low numbers and the fact acquiring fuel and spare parts for packs would be a pipe dream for a pirate band, as the author actually tried to make the group believable instead of munchkin brigade pulling fresh gear out of their behinds whenever they run low].
Then we have night lords chaos lord metal mini. Strangely enough, no jump pack either. NL main praetor? Termie armor, nuff said. Funny that, neither fluff nor models want to agree with-- Oh, wait, my bad, fanfiction CSM with baddest dudes and bestest gear totally not cherrypicked for most broken +++ stats, silly of me to think setting accuracy should have any say here
The issue isn't that one piece of lore is more or less correct than another piece of lore.
The issue is that there are now not jump pack lords that can keep up with their own forces. The generic Chaos Lord can't even deep strike with raptors or other things.
The issue is that, whether you think Night Lords are cowards or beatsticks, you are losing out on the option to make your Chaos Lord fit your personal lore and faction.
drbored wrote: The issue isn't that one piece of lore is more or less correct than another piece of lore.
The issue is that there are now not jump pack lords that can keep up with their own forces. The generic Chaos Lord can't even deep strike with raptors or other things.
The issue is that, whether you think Night Lords are cowards or beatsticks, you are losing out on the option to make your Chaos Lord fit your personal lore and faction.
Yeah, too personal & specific, don't care.
The real issue is that chaos marines are losing options again, and the rationale seems to be 'Its chaos, so... whatever. The sculptors didn't do a jump character this time, we have to rip those pages out'
Gadzilla666 wrote: Yes, we will. The last thing I need is for all of my characters to be plodding buff bots that can't keep up with the rest of my army. Night Lords characters work best as nasty melee beatsticks. With jump packs. Not aura tokens.
Ah, yes, NL beatsticks. Even though the Legion is universally described as cowardly and NL characters tend to get owned (or run) from equivalents from other SM forces. To the point a single eldar can wipe out almost a whole warband in melee
But maybe I am wrong and they are all beatsticks with jump packs. Let's take a look at their iconic characters. First, Sevatar. Arguably a beatstick, which, according to his description, makes him different to every other NL character. Oops. Also, his mini doesn't have pack. Oops. Ditto with Kheron Ophion, the only other 30K NL that can be called any competent in melee (in fact his reputation for bravery made him one of the tiny minority in his legion and universally despised for that). I wonder if they didn't get the pack memo or something?
Then we have Talos from 40K. Again, no jump pack. Oops. Is so 'beatstick' he ends his life blowing himself up to stop a single eldar woman. Double oops. Despite being mediocre melee combatant, somehow beats without effort every single NL officer coveting his sword (and funnily enough, uses stolen one because NL can't make good melee weapons) and position. Triple oops [and for the record, none of his mooks in the warband used pack either, in fact they explicitly prefer heavy guns to make up their low numbers and the fact acquiring fuel and spare parts for packs would be a pipe dream for a pirate band, as the author actually tried to make the group believable instead of munchkin brigade pulling fresh gear out of their behinds whenever they run low].
Then we have night lords chaos lord metal mini. Strangely enough, no jump pack either. NL main praetor? Termie armor, nuff said. Funny that, neither fluff nor models want to agree with-- Oh, wait, my bad, fanfiction CSM with baddest dudes and bestest gear totally not cherrypicked for most broken +++ stats, silly of me to think setting accuracy should have any say here
What a fantastic hot take. Night Lords legion trait should be that they cost more points because they're poor.
In fact, how often do CSM actually win in the fluff? Like maybe 1% of the time? They should take a survey of Black Library stories and calculate their win percentage based on that and then balance the codex so their tabletop performance matches. Brilliant!
Gadzilla666 wrote: Yes, we will. The last thing I need is for all of my characters to be plodding buff bots that can't keep up with the rest of my army. Night Lords characters work best as nasty melee beatsticks. With jump packs. Not aura tokens.
Ah, yes, NL beatsticks. Even though the Legion is universally described as cowardly and NL characters tend to get owned (or run) from equivalents from other SM forces. To the point a single eldar can wipe out almost a whole warband in melee
But maybe I am wrong and they are all beatsticks with jump packs. Let's take a look at their iconic characters. First, Sevatar. Arguably a beatstick, which, according to his description, makes him different to every other NL character. Oops. Also, his mini doesn't have pack. Oops. Ditto with Kheron Ophion, the only other 30K NL that can be called any competent in melee (in fact his reputation for bravery made him one of the tiny minority in his legion and universally despised for that). I wonder if they didn't get the pack memo or something?
Then we have Talos from 40K. Again, no jump pack. Oops. Is so 'beatstick' he ends his life blowing himself up to stop a single eldar woman. Double oops. Despite being mediocre melee combatant, somehow beats without effort every single NL officer coveting his sword (and funnily enough, uses stolen one because NL can't make good melee weapons) and position. Triple oops [and for the record, none of his mooks in the warband used pack either, in fact they explicitly prefer heavy guns to make up their low numbers and the fact acquiring fuel and spare parts for packs would be a pipe dream for a pirate band, as the author actually tried to make the group believable instead of munchkin brigade pulling fresh gear out of their behinds whenever they run low].
Then we have night lords chaos lord metal mini. Strangely enough, no jump pack either. NL main praetor? Termie armor, nuff said. Funny that, neither fluff nor models want to agree with-- Oh, wait, my bad, fanfiction CSM with baddest dudes and bestest gear totally not cherrypicked for most broken +++ stats, silly of me to think setting accuracy should have any say here
What a fantastic hot take. Night Lords legion trait should be that they cost more points because they're poor.
In fact, how often do CSM actually win in the fluff? Like maybe 1% of the time? They should take a survey of Black Library stories and calculate their win percentage based on that and then balance the codex so their tabletop performance matches. Brilliant!
drbored wrote: The issue isn't that one piece of lore is more or less correct than another piece of lore.
The issue is that there are now not jump pack lords that can keep up with their own forces. The generic Chaos Lord can't even deep strike with raptors or other things.
The issue is that, whether you think Night Lords are cowards or beatsticks, you are losing out on the option to make your Chaos Lord fit your personal lore and faction.
Yeah, too personal & specific, don't care.
The real issue is that chaos marines are losing options again, and the rationale seems to be 'Its chaos, so... whatever. The sculptors didn't do a jump character this time, we have to rip those pages out'
Eh, too narrow minded and poorly considered, don't care.
drbored wrote: The issue isn't that one piece of lore is more or less correct than another piece of lore.
The issue is that there are now not jump pack lords that can keep up with their own forces. The generic Chaos Lord can't even deep strike with raptors or other things.
The issue is that, whether you think Night Lords are cowards or beatsticks, you are losing out on the option to make your Chaos Lord fit your personal lore and faction.
Yeah, too personal & specific, don't care.
The real issue is that chaos marines are losing options again, and the rationale seems to be 'Its chaos, so... whatever. The sculptors didn't do a jump character this time, we have to rip those pages out'
Eh, too narrow minded and poorly considered, don't care.
Yes, of course. Chaos losing options for _everyone_, not just night lords, is narrow minded.
Is that your attempt at an April fool's joke?
