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Gadzilla666 wrote: Yes, we will. The last thing I need is for all of my characters to be plodding buff bots that can't keep up with the rest of my army. Night Lords characters work best as nasty melee beatsticks. With jump packs. Not aura tokens.
Ah, yes, NL beatsticks. Even though the Legion is universally described as cowardly and NL characters tend to get owned (or run) from equivalents from other SM forces. To the point a single eldar can wipe out almost a whole warband in melee
But maybe I am wrong and they are all beatsticks with jump packs. Let's take a look at their iconic characters. First, Sevatar. Arguably a beatstick, which, according to his description, makes him different to every other NL character. Oops. Also, his mini doesn't have pack. Oops. Ditto with Kheron Ophion, the only other 30K NL that can be called any competent in melee (in fact his reputation for bravery made him one of the tiny minority in his legion and universally despised for that). I wonder if they didn't get the pack memo or something?
Then we have Talos from 40K. Again, no jump pack. Oops. Is so 'beatstick' he ends his life blowing himself up to stop a single eldar woman. Double oops. Despite being mediocre melee combatant, somehow beats without effort every single NL officer coveting his sword (and funnily enough, uses stolen one because NL can't make good melee weapons) and position. Triple oops [and for the record, none of his mooks in the warband used pack either, in fact they explicitly prefer heavy guns to make up their low numbers and the fact acquiring fuel and spare parts for packs would be a pipe dream for a pirate band, as the author actually tried to make the group believable instead of munchkin brigade pulling fresh gear out of their behinds whenever they run low].
Then we have night lords chaos lord metal mini. Strangely enough, no jump pack either. NL main praetor? Termie armor, nuff said. Funny that, neither fluff nor models want to agree with-- Oh, wait, my bad, fanfiction CSM with baddest dudes and bestest gear totally not cherrypicked for most broken +++ stats, silly of me to think setting accuracy should have any say here
Is this an April Fools post? I mean, you got enough right to make it sound like you actually read the books, but so much wrong, while you were at it. I mean, Jain Zar wasn't a "lone Eldar", she brought Banshees, Swooping Hawks, and various other Knife Ears with her. And none of the "mooks" used jump packs? Umm, hello? Bleeding Eyes? Ring a bell? And yes, one of the Night Lords HH Praetors is in terminator armour. The other is in power armour, and has a jump pack.
But yeah, they should probably write a BL novel about a Night Lord with a jump pack, and maybe some lightning claws. They could call it "Lord of the Darkness" or "Master of the Night" or something. Maybe get that Simon Spurrier chap to write it. I hear he's pretty good.
But obviously you knew that I was talking about what the army needs to work on the table, not "fluff", or your rather entertaining personal takes on it. But hey, nice joke, hilarious as always.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Yes, we will. The last thing I need is for all of my characters to be plodding buff bots that can't keep up with the rest of my army. Night Lords characters work best as nasty melee beatsticks. With jump packs. Not aura tokens.
Ah, yes, NL beatsticks. Even though the Legion is universally described as cowardly and NL characters tend to get owned (or run) from equivalents from other SM forces. To the point a single eldar can wipe out almost a whole warband in melee
But maybe I am wrong and they are all beatsticks with jump packs. Let's take a look at their iconic characters. First, Sevatar. Arguably a beatstick, which, according to his description, makes him different to every other NL character. Oops. Also, his mini doesn't have pack. Oops. Ditto with Kheron Ophion, the only other 30K NL that can be called any competent in melee (in fact his reputation for bravery made him one of the tiny minority in his legion and universally despised for that). I wonder if they didn't get the pack memo or something?
Then we have Talos from 40K. Again, no jump pack. Oops. Is so 'beatstick' he ends his life blowing himself up to stop a single eldar woman. Double oops. Despite being mediocre melee combatant, somehow beats without effort every single NL officer coveting his sword (and funnily enough, uses stolen one because NL can't make good melee weapons) and position. Triple oops [and for the record, none of his mooks in the warband used pack either, in fact they explicitly prefer heavy guns to make up their low numbers and the fact acquiring fuel and spare parts for packs would be a pipe dream for a pirate band, as the author actually tried to make the group believable instead of munchkin brigade pulling fresh gear out of their behinds whenever they run low].
Then we have night lords chaos lord metal mini. Strangely enough, no jump pack either. NL main praetor? Termie armor, nuff said. Funny that, neither fluff nor models want to agree with-- Oh, wait, my bad, fanfiction CSM with baddest dudes and bestest gear totally not cherrypicked for most broken +++ stats, silly of me to think setting accuracy should have any say here
What a fantastic hot take. Night Lords legion trait should be that they cost more points because they're poor.
In fact, how often do CSM actually win in the fluff? Like maybe 1% of the time? They should take a survey of Black Library stories and calculate their win percentage based on that and then balance the codex so their tabletop performance matches. Brilliant!
I'd prefer we don't try the Loyalists 8.5 approach to game design again.
It is strange to be like “here’s a story where night lords don’t have jump packs.”
Ok, and here’s a story where alpha legion think they’re loyalist and work with a cryptek.
Here’s a story where a world eater is calm and collected or uses primarily ranged weapons.
Just because a warband operates a certain way in one story doesn’t mean they all do. And if someone wants their army to have a jump pack lord, which was still being sold as a model until recently, why shouldn’t they?
So back the the CSM rumors with the recent Squat announcement we can safely say that everything on that leaked list is coming. So here's what we know the CSM are getting:
+Regular Possessed (thank Jimmy Space, that dang kit is old and while it was great for kitbashing with the kit itself had aged poorly)
+ Bikers (guessing a box of 3 since that seems to be GW's favorite number for these kinds of units, but maybe they'll surprise me and do a box of 5)
+ Chosen (Confirmed, released via Killteam)
+ Warpsmith (Confirmed, released initially with knife ears. Pending stand alone release)
+ Cultists (Looks like the "Cultists of the Abyss" set I guess, which means a lot of shirtless guys and masks over their face. Cool look honestly)
+ Traitor Guard "BSF style" (best guess is the traitor guard from BSF are getting a kit. Perhaps the Commisar and Ogryn will too. Also Chaos Beastmen please)
+ Human Mutants (guessing some form of chaos corrupted humans or people with unfortunate mutations who tend to turn on their oppressors when given a chance in 40k stories)
+ Possessed Humans (apparently this one and the previous one are "monstrously horrible" which sounds wonderful)
+ Cultist standard bearer (because every uprising needs a banner)
+ Cultist character with bodyguard
Also mentioned for later this year (no set release dates or details about models):
+World Eaters
+Chaos Daemons
So I know that some people look at CSM and say that they shouldn't have squishy humans in the book, but honestly most of the stories I've read with CSM have them using humans as a sort of answer to the numbers problem CSM would have otherwise. After all CSM losses are even harder to replace than regular Astartes and if you can use cheap fodder to give yourself even the slightest advantage then it's best to do so. As such I'm fine with humans being a big expansion to the book, plus this is probably the closes to a Lost and the Damned book we'll see for some time (fingers crossed for some guard tank access so Iron Warriors can take Bassies again). Then again I'm biased towards Word Bearers who love stirring up a good mob of zealous cultists.
EviscerationPlague wrote: I don't mind a few meatshield expansions, but without properly working Chaos Marines (and of course Huron) the codex will be a bust for me.
I don't disagree there, but until we see rulebook leaks/man-reads-book-previews I don't hold the rumors in high regard due to the amount of fake rumors we've seen. Basically I'm just not banking on how good/bad those rules will be for a while now.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/04/03 07:02:54
ClockworkZion wrote: So I know that some people look at CSM and say that they shouldn't have squishy humans in the book, but honestly most of the stories I've read with CSM have them using humans as a sort of answer to the numbers problem CSM would have otherwise. After all CSM losses are even harder to replace than regular Astartes and if you can use cheap fodder to give yourself even the slightest advantage then it's best to do so. As such I'm fine with humans being a big expansion to the book, plus this is probably the closes to a Lost and the Damned book we'll see for some time (fingers crossed for some guard tank access so Iron Warriors can take Bassies again). Then again I'm biased towards Word Bearers who love stirring up a good mob of zealous cultists.
I'm thinking maybe they'll put a few cult units in this Chaos Codex, then in 10th edition they'll have a second wave and split marines and mortals into separate books.
EviscerationPlague wrote: I don't mind a few meatshield expansions, but without properly working Chaos Marines (and of course Huron) the codex will be a bust for me.
Considering how DOA cultists seem (no traits and synergy at all) why are you concerned. If anything this book will be the final nail for those of us who like the cult /traitorguard side of things more than CSM.
And for the CSm side of things, considering that everyone now got their way to deal with w2 and has gotten AP galore i don't think it looks good for our troop choices.
Alas we also lose jumppack HQ so ehh.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Well, seemingly not, you just need to buy another book for £$€CHF (equivalent of currency)
Atleast noisemarines are worth it seemingly once.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
In much the same way that GW has seemingly forgotten about Emperor's Children, leaving them languishing without anything to show for themselves other than a resin conversion kit designed for a completely different (and out of print) set of Space Marines.
I honestly don't know who's getting the short end of the stick with this Codex: People who liked using Cult units in their armies at all, or Emperor's Children players.
Certainly those of us who liked chaos lords and built a buch of diffrent equipped ones...
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
In much the same way that GW has seemingly forgotten about Emperor's Children, leaving them languishing without anything to show for themselves other than a resin conversion kit designed for a completely different (and out of print) set of Space Marines.
I honestly don't know who's getting the short end of the stick with this Codex: People who liked using Cult units in their armies at all, or Emperor's Children players.
Eh... Feels like at this point codex EC is less a question of if and more a question of when. So at this point I'm just exited about our potential new goodies and being patient.
EviscerationPlague wrote: I don't mind a few meatshield expansions, but without properly working Chaos Marines (and of course Huron) the codex will be a bust for me.
Considering how DOA cultists seem (no traits and synergy at all) why are you concerned. If anything this book will be the final nail for those of us who like the cult /traitorguard side of things more than CSM.
And for the CSm side of things, considering that everyone now got their way to deal with w2 and has gotten AP galore i don't think it looks good for our troop choices.
Alas we also lose jumppack HQ so ehh.
I'm thinking they'll have to have a different way of implementing all the new mortal units somehow to justify their existence if nothing else. Maybe they have a separate army wide rule that only kicks in if the command unit is included or something.
I believe GW is at a loss with what to do with EC. They were able to shift Slaanesh in AoS to the Hedonites range reasonably well but it fits a fantasy aesthetic that is "acceptable" to wider range of gamers (an Eastern influence that has a basis in the established entertainment zeitgeist).
I think New Noise Marines are safe bet and don't really rankle the sensibilities of shareholders and many gamers. We definitely need those. But beyond that...there's always Black Library stories.
"You're not the best but you're the best we've got."
themonk wrote: I believe GW is at a loss with what to do with EC. They were able to shift Slaanesh in AoS to the Hedonites range reasonably well but it fits a fantasy aesthetic that is "acceptable" to wider range of gamers (an Eastern influence that has a basis in the established entertainment zeitgeist).
I think New Noise Marines are safe bet and don't really rankle the sensibilities of shareholders and many gamers. We definitely need those. But beyond that...there's always Black Library stories.
There's room for all sorts of sonic units and daemon engines, some unique characters and buff/debuff units. You seem to be thinking slaanesh space marines require boobs and sex everywhere.
themonk wrote: I believe GW is at a loss with what to do with EC. They were able to shift Slaanesh in AoS to the Hedonites range reasonably well but it fits a fantasy aesthetic that is "acceptable" to wider range of gamers (an Eastern influence that has a basis in the established entertainment zeitgeist).
I think New Noise Marines are safe bet and don't really rankle the sensibilities of shareholders and many gamers. We definitely need those. But beyond that...there's always Black Library stories.
There's room for all sorts of sonic units and daemon engines, some unique characters and buff/debuff units. You seem to be thinking slaanesh space marines require boobs and sex everywhere.
I'd love to see all that and would like to be proven wrong but being a CSM player for 23 years...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/04/03 14:11:57
"You're not the best but you're the best we've got."
Chosen weren't in Kill-Team. Regular Marines with an upgrade sprue were.
Ah that's right. Chosen where in the box with the Warpsmith.
Well, confirmed is confirmed.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
themonk wrote: I believe GW is at a loss with what to do with EC. They were able to shift Slaanesh in AoS to the Hedonites range reasonably well but it fits a fantasy aesthetic that is "acceptable" to wider range of gamers (an Eastern influence that has a basis in the established entertainment zeitgeist).
I think New Noise Marines are safe bet and don't really rankle the sensibilities of shareholders and many gamers. We definitely need those. But beyond that...there's always Black Library stories.
Slaanesh as a wider faction is a bit easier than when narrowed into the CSM specifically. I mean how many stories of gluttonous Slaaneshi Astartes are there?
GW's design team has knocked it out of the park before though so it could be interesting.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/04/03 14:17:25
