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Gadzilla666 wrote: Because it annoys me, because it's more of the "Black Legion uber alles" we've always gotten. But he'll probably get it, and I've admitted as much. Sorry to have ruffled so many Black Legion feathers.
You mean the Legion that is the Legion of the Long War? The Legion that is the most organised and powerful? The Legion at whose head stands the warrior anointed by the Pantheon and forced the Daemon Primarchs themselves to bend the knee in subservience to him? The Legion that for at least twenty years of background has been at the forefront of the Long War, taking the fight to the Imperium instead of hiding like the Night Lords? You do know that there are entire Chaos Cults that worship Abaddon as a god right?
Yes, overall the forces of Chaos aren't unified like the Imperium. But Abaddon still commands a huge force of unified Legions and Warbands because once again he is the Warmaster.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/05 04:45:39
Feels like the point has been laboured enough, but it'd be pretty pointless to accommodate the few warbands who refuse to work with Abaddon when it comes to writing the rules for the tabletop game where your army is expected to work like an army. Some Night Lords in the lore don't like him? Cool, the ones on the table next to him do.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Because it annoys me, because it's more of the "Black Legion uber alles" we've always gotten. But he'll probably get it, and I've admitted as much. Sorry to have ruffled so many Black Legion feathers.
You mean the Legion that is the Legion of the Long War? The Legion that is the most organised and powerful? The Legion at whose head stands the warrior anointed by the Pantheon and forced the Daemon Primarchs themselves to bend the knee in subservience to him? The Legion that for at least twenty years of background has been at the forefront of the Long War, taking the fight to the Imperium instead of hiding like the Night Lords? You do know that there are entire Chaos Cults that worship Abaddon as a god right?
Yes, overall the forces of Chaos aren't unified like the Imperium. But Abaddon still commands a huge force of unified Legions and Warbands because once again he is the Warmaster.
Yes, but he doesn't command all of them. That's why he couldn't hold his forces together after the Fall of Cadia. Many of the warbands were done with him after they got what they wanted, and left. If he truly commanded them, then he could have held them together, but he couldn't, because he only had their commitment as long as it benefited them. Once he comes up with another grand scheme, he may get it again, but only if it suits them, not him.
It doesn't matter if Abaddon controls every single Warband in existence just as Guilliman doesn't control every Guard Regiment, Sisters Priory, Custodes Shield Host, Astartes Chapter, Mechanicus Forge World, or Shadowsun every single T'au Sept. The idea behind a Supreme Commander is that when they are on the battlefield, the forces present submit themselves to their orders. You mentioned Crythe earlier, yet in that invasion, the Night Lords did submit to Abaddon's plans just as the Shattered Aquila submitted to Huron's plans in Blood Reaver. Towards the end of those engagements they ditched both Abaddon and Huron but for the greater sum of time, they were under their command. It doesn't matter if Abaddon can't hold every single Warband under his direct command because neither can Guilliman and he is a far greater tactical commander than Abaddon ever will be.
I mean, nothing is stopping you from saying you Chaos Space Marines hate Abaddon's guts and will never work with him and you just don't include Abaddon in your army?
The OPTION (!!!) has to be there for all the reasons and lore mentioned above, but you don't have to make use of it.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Because it annoys me, because it's more of the "Black Legion uber alles" we've always gotten. But he'll probably get it, and I've admitted as much. Sorry to have ruffled so many Black Legion feathers.
You mean the Legion that is the Legion of the Long War? The Legion that is the most organised and powerful? The Legion at whose head stands the warrior anointed by the Pantheon and forced the Daemon Primarchs themselves to bend the knee in subservience to him? The Legion that for at least twenty years of background has been at the forefront of the Long War, taking the fight to the Imperium instead of hiding like the Night Lords? You do know that there are entire Chaos Cults that worship Abaddon as a god right?
Yes, overall the forces of Chaos aren't unified like the Imperium. But Abaddon still commands a huge force of unified Legions and Warbands because once again he is the Warmaster.
Yes, but he doesn't command all of them. That's why he couldn't hold his forces together after the Fall of Cadia. Many of the warbands were done with him after they got what they wanted, and left. If he truly commanded them, then he could have held them together, but he couldn't, because he only had their commitment as long as it benefited them. Once he comes up with another grand scheme, he may get it again, but only if it suits them, not him.
So because some drukhari naffed off with the Ynnari instead of obeying Vect, is he not valid as a Supreme Commander either? Or Ghazkull since his Great Waaagh influence is generally limited to sector or planetary level operations? Shadowsun, who is clearly subordinate to high Ethereals? What is the definition being used here to argue that the de facto most authoritative chaos lord (and de jure thanks to the mark of chaos ascendant) is not a valid supreme commander choice? I dont have a personal stake in Abbadons reputation, I just am perplexed.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Because it annoys me, because it's more of the "Black Legion uber alles" we've always gotten. But he'll probably get it, and I've admitted as much. Sorry to have ruffled so many Black Legion feathers.
You mean the Legion that is the Legion of the Long War? The Legion that is the most organised and powerful? The Legion at whose head stands the warrior anointed by the Pantheon and forced the Daemon Primarchs themselves to bend the knee in subservience to him? The Legion that for at least twenty years of background has been at the forefront of the Long War, taking the fight to the Imperium instead of hiding like the Night Lords? You do know that there are entire Chaos Cults that worship Abaddon as a god right?
Yes, overall the forces of Chaos aren't unified like the Imperium. But Abaddon still commands a huge force of unified Legions and Warbands because once again he is the Warmaster.
Yes, but he doesn't command all of them. That's why he couldn't hold his forces together after the Fall of Cadia. Many of the warbands were done with him after they got what they wanted, and left. If he truly commanded them, then he could have held them together, but he couldn't, because he only had their commitment as long as it benefited them. Once he comes up with another grand scheme, he may get it again, but only if it suits them, not him.
Yea. And Guillimann doesn't have complete control of Imperium forces either.
So by your logic Guillimann shouldn't have warmaster rule either.
Or you are 2 faced and claim what suits your personal power dreams.
Abbadon has fluff wise every right to work with other forces because THAT'S WHAT HE DOES. He doesn't need to have 100% control. If 90% does and 10% doesn't that means he shouldn't be allowed to be used with the majority? Lol.
It's not like you even have to use him if in your headcanon he doesn't work them.
But we know what this is about in reality. Not fluff/what's appropriate but your power gaming.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/05/05 06:55:34
tneva82 wrote: So by your logic Guillimann shouldn't have warmaster rule either.
*record scratch* Wat?
In a dark underground chamber, a hulking figure sitting on a throne suddenly opens its eyes and stands up. <voice>: "Get me my sword. I need to have a serious talk with Roboute." Watcher in the Dark: "My Lord!" <voice>: "NOW!"
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/05/05 07:21:18
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
With the new cultist announced I sure hope they'll repack the previous BSF cultist in a box of 20. (Or at lest in a box with an even number of them in )
DreadfullyHopeful wrote: With the new cultist announced I sure hope they'll repack the previous BSF cultist in a box of 20. (Or at lest in a box with an even number of them in )
Suspect they may go OOP and cultists reduced to pistol/ccw only as not seen any with rifles in the previews.
Not sure if anyone's noticed this yet, but the Chaos Start Collecting is gone from the UKGW site. AFAICT there's no way to get any of the models in it right now (although obviously regular Marines have a kit). Mutilators are also gone.
EDIT: Also checked the US, AUS, and FR sites, with the same result.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/05 10:10:15
I think he's on a separate sprue, much like the Master of Possession
Fairly certain he is. He's not in the 3 Intercessors vs Cultists Doomsday board game.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/05/05 10:55:23
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Aelyn wrote: Not sure if anyone's noticed this yet, but the Chaos Start Collecting is gone from the UKGW site. AFAICT there's no way to get any of the models in it right now (although obviously regular Marines have a kit). Mutilators are also gone.
When searching for the Master of Possession just now I noticed that as well.
Cultists of the Abyss went 'no longer available online' a few days ago on the UK site, but has since reappeared at £19 instead of the £16 it was previously.
The SC box has been gone from the UK site for a while, I never got round to getting it so I'm hoping it'll form the basis of the combat patrol.
BrotherGecko wrote: So are renegade guard rumored to be their own codex? Because chaos space marines just got a killteam with warzone nachmund. No faction so far has 2 killteams, some don't even have 1 killteam.
Would be obnoxious for chaos space marines get another killteam for the warzone with necrons and ultramarines being featured in the tease.
If you include the Compendium teams, a bunch of factions already have two Kill-Teams, they're just not bespoke.
Underworlds has factions with multiple warbands also, especially the Orcs who're up to about 4 or 5 now I think?
Kill-Team feels more like an avenue to sell people models they'd be buying for their 40k collection anyway. It's not hard to imagine that if KT21 wasn't a thing, Traitor Guard would've just been plonked into the CSM reveals under 40k.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/05 11:31:43
I hope the CSM Combat Patrol they put out isn't gak - the current Start Collecting box uses the gash sculpts from Shadowspear with *no* options - so it really isn't a great choice for anyone imo. Though given the contents of the Sister of Battle Combat Patrol, I don't have much faith in GW to use the *actual multipart* CSM kit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/05 11:37:40
The biggest indicator someone is a loser is them complaining about 3d printers or piracy.
blood reaper wrote: I hope the CSM Combat Patrol they put out isn't gak - the current Start Collecting box uses the gash sculpts from Shadowspear with *no* options - so it really isn't a great choice for anyone imo. Though given the contents of the Sister of Battle Combat Patrol, I don't have much faith in GW to use the *actual multipart* CSM kit.
If they don't re-use the shadowspear sprues it becomes literally impossible to buy obliterators, venom Crawlers and masters of possession as it stands.
DreadfullyHopeful wrote: With the new cultist announced I sure hope they'll repack the previous BSF cultist in a box of 20. (Or at lest in a box with an even number of them in )
I don't think that's going to work very well in any combination. The sprue has a sergeant, four autoguns, a grenade launcher and a heavy stubber.
Just the squad as it is is kind of pointless, especially if Cultists are organized to come at a minimum size of ten.
If you double it up, you could have a ten man squad with autoguns, a sergeant, a special weapon and a heavy weapon. Pretty much par for the course, but you'd end up with four superfluous models.
If you triple it, you'd have to have three special weapons and three heavy weapons, as well as two sergeants, discarding the third one. That doesn't fit any kind of unit organization GW ever used, to my knowledge.
If the kit sticks around, which I hope it does, I think it will just serve as a source of different sculpts. They're all monopose jigsaw models, so even if the new Cultists end up with a measure up modularity, moving bits across to the existing ones would entail a good bit of converting.
Nehekhara lives! Sort of!
Why is the rum always gone?
Gadzilla666 wrote: Because it annoys me, because it's more of the "Black Legion uber alles" we've always gotten. But he'll probably get it, and I've admitted as much. Sorry to have ruffled so many Black Legion feathers.
You mean the Legion that is the Legion of the Long War? The Legion that is the most organised and powerful? The Legion at whose head stands the warrior anointed by the Pantheon and forced the Daemon Primarchs themselves to bend the knee in subservience to him? The Legion that for at least twenty years of background has been at the forefront of the Long War, taking the fight to the Imperium instead of hiding like the Night Lords? You do know that there are entire Chaos Cults that worship Abaddon as a god right?
Yes, overall the forces of Chaos aren't unified like the Imperium. But Abaddon still commands a huge force of unified Legions and Warbands because once again he is the Warmaster.
Yes, but he doesn't command all of them. That's why he couldn't hold his forces together after the Fall of Cadia. Many of the warbands were done with him after they got what they wanted, and left. If he truly commanded them, then he could have held them together, but he couldn't, because he only had their commitment as long as it benefited them. Once he comes up with another grand scheme, he may get it again, but only if it suits them, not him.
Yea. And Guillimann doesn't have complete control of Imperium forces either.
So by your logic Guillimann shouldn't have warmaster rule either.
Or you are 2 faced and claim what suits your personal power dreams.
Abbadon has fluff wise every right to work with other forces because THAT'S WHAT HE DOES. He doesn't need to have 100% control. If 90% does and 10% doesn't that means he shouldn't be allowed to be used with the majority? Lol.
It's not like you even have to use him if in your headcanon he doesn't work them.
But we know what this is about in reality. Not fluff/what's appropriate but your power gaming.
Oh please. This has nothing to do with my "power dreams", and more to do with some Black Legion players power dreams of expecting their Legion to be put above all others. The evidence is that I've already repeatedly acquiesced that he'll probably get the rule anyway and tried to get out of this argument, again, multiple times. But you guys just keep on coming. I'm fine with dropping it, but you just won't do the same.
And I have no idea how not getting the big buffed up character qualifies as "power gaming".
blood reaper wrote: I hope the CSM Combat Patrol they put out isn't gak - the current Start Collecting box uses the gash sculpts from Shadowspear with *no* options - so it really isn't a great choice for anyone imo. Though given the contents of the Sister of Battle Combat Patrol, I don't have much faith in GW to use the *actual multipart* CSM kit.
I'll put odds that the Combat Patrol will reuse the Shadowspear sprues. We've heard nothing about those models getting real kits, and chaos is already getting a lot.
They may or may not reuse the Master of Possession, but I wouldn't be surprised if the CP is Shadowspear again+Chosen and Warpsmith.
Or maybe shadowspear+ older kits like the terminator lord and... raptors, just to be weird.
blood reaper wrote: I hope the CSM Combat Patrol they put out isn't gak - the current Start Collecting box uses the gash sculpts from Shadowspear with *no* options - so it really isn't a great choice for anyone imo. Though given the contents of the Sister of Battle Combat Patrol, I don't have much faith in GW to use the *actual multipart* CSM kit.
I'll put odds that the Combat Patrol will reuse the Shadowspear sprues. We've heard nothing about those models getting real kits, and chaos is already getting a lot.
They may or may not reuse the Master of Possession, but I wouldn't be surprised if the CP is Shadowspear again+Chosen and Warpsmith.
Or maybe shadowspear+ older kits like the terminator lord and... raptors, just to be weird.
Very unfortunate but also very likely the case. A good example of a 'good deal' which is not actually a good deal imo.
The biggest indicator someone is a loser is them complaining about 3d printers or piracy.
IDK why people are saying Abbadon isn't leader material... Before being supersized, and arguably mostly still the case, he's defined as a terminator who does the impossible and unites (if temporarily) the legions again and again, is the successor to the guy who united the legions the first time, his signature weapon is the other guy's weapon--again a symbol of leadership--and even the gods are OK with sharing him. I don't really care for BL but it seems pretty obvious that he fits that role.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/05 13:30:07
spiralingcadaver wrote: IDK why people are saying Abbadon isn't leader material... Before being supersized, and arguably mostly still the case, he's defined as a terminator who does the impossible and unites (if temporarily) the legions again and again, is the successor to the guy who united the legions the first time, his signature weapon is the other guy's weapon--again a symbol of leadership--and even the gods are OK with sharing him. I don't really care for BL but it seems pretty obvious that he fits that role.
I'd say Drach'nyen is more Abaddon's signature weapon than the Talon of Horus. Which is symbolic of itself - screw Horus. He failed.
blood reaper wrote: I hope the CSM Combat Patrol they put out isn't gak - the current Start Collecting box uses the gash sculpts from Shadowspear with *no* options - so it really isn't a great choice for anyone imo. Though given the contents of the Sister of Battle Combat Patrol, I don't have much faith in GW to use the *actual multipart* CSM kit.
I'll put odds that the Combat Patrol will reuse the Shadowspear sprues. We've heard nothing about those models getting real kits, and chaos is already getting a lot.
They may or may not reuse the Master of Possession, but I wouldn't be surprised if the CP is Shadowspear again+Chosen and Warpsmith.
Or maybe shadowspear+ older kits like the terminator lord and... raptors, just to be weird.
Very unfortunate but also very likely the case. A good example of a 'good deal' which is not actually a good deal imo.
Eh. I bought one start collecting, and found it well worth it. They're pretty nice models, and for the basic marines, they add some variety to the other kit.
Now, admittedly, having pair after pair of the same 'greater possessed' (which I guess are now just alt sculpts for possessed) and Oblits gets pointless fast, so I doubt I'd buy the combat patrol if it sticks with Shadowspear sprues.
---
Personally, all I really want for chaos right now is to know what they're doing with World Eaters. I'm going skip right past all these releases if they do WE justice for once. And avoid it like the plague if they don't.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/05 13:39:17
Uh, on the Talon IDK in chaos yeah assuming leadership often looks like one-upping the old guy. But yeah that's fair about which is more signature, revise that to "one of his signature weapons."
we've always gotten. But he'll probably get it, and I've admitted as much. Sorry to have ruffled so many Black Legion feathers. 
)
