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charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote:
That is btw spot on the issue with GW and Khorne. They got stuck in this ,Khorne followers are dumb barbarians who smash everything with an Axe’ mentality for 40k and AoS.

Meanwhile there is so much unused potential for rewriting Khorne to a mich deeper, much more satisfying faction. Having more aspects that satisfy Khorne rather than just simple meele murder would already give it a lot of cool flair as others mentioned already. Also viewing the Nails as Curse/Blessing could provide a fresh take. Making Khorne some sort of hunter god, driven by the desire to find his prey and kill it, would also add up a load of possible new depth. Shedding more light on the context of Khorne hating psykers is another pathway to go.

I have really the hope that the upcoming rework of the WE will also give more depth to Khorne.

Khorne is creatively starved, moreso than any other Chaos faction. To really explore his following in greater depth, more war cries are necessary.

Blood for the Blood God!

Skulls for the Skull Throne!

Scalps for Khorne's Rug!

Spines for the Brass Side Table!

Fibulas for the Spiked Ottoman!

Ribs for the Torment Brush!

Finger Bones For the Wind Chimes of Torment!

I might be being naive here, but I expected a chaos marines article this week after the Sunday summary? I'm not counting world eaters as that's a white dwarf preview.

Dudeface wrote:
I might be being naive here, but I expected a chaos marines article this week after the Sunday summary? I'm not counting world eaters as that's a white dwarf preview.

Maybe the possessed/mutant weapon profiles ?

Dudeface wrote:I might be being naive here, but I expected a chaos marines article this week after the Sunday summary? I'm not counting world eaters as that's a white dwarf preview.

Well, the week isn't over, yet. So there still might be something. Or gw might disagree with you, and consider the WE preview as "enough" Chaos content for one week. They wouldn't want CSM players to start thinking that we actually matter, would they?

DreadfullyHopeful wrote:Maybe the possessed/mutant weapon profiles ?

I'd much rather something on what exactly "Let the Galaxy Burn" is. Let's see if it really is "Spiky Doctrines", and rip that particular bandaid off.

 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
I might be being naive here, but I expected a chaos marines article this week after the Sunday summary? I'm not counting world eaters as that's a white dwarf preview.

Maybe the possessed/mutant weapon profiles ?

T'was last Friday good sir, but maybe that means an article tomorrow.

 techsoldaten wrote:

charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote:
That is btw spot on the issue with GW and Khorne. They got stuck in this ,Khorne followers are dumb barbarians who smash everything with an Axe’ mentality for 40k and AoS.

Meanwhile there is so much unused potential for rewriting Khorne to a mich deeper, much more satisfying faction. Having more aspects that satisfy Khorne rather than just simple meele murder would already give it a lot of cool flair as others mentioned already. Also viewing the Nails as Curse/Blessing could provide a fresh take. Making Khorne some sort of hunter god, driven by the desire to find his prey and kill it, would also add up a load of possible new depth. Shedding more light on the context of Khorne hating psykers is another pathway to go.

I have really the hope that the upcoming rework of the WE will also give more depth to Khorne.

Khorne is creatively starved, moreso than any other Chaos faction. To really explore his following in greater depth, more war cries are necessary.

Blood for the Blood God!

Skulls for the Skull Throne!

Scalps for Khorne's Rug!

Spines for the Brass Side Table!

Fibulas for the Spiked Ottoman!

Ribs for the Torment Brush!

The problem is also Khorne World Eater's delivery systems. What are the ways you can deliver your units into close combat where you want them to be.

Rhino transports? Just run up the board? Deep strike?

A melee army can only succeed if it is either
1) Fast enough to get up the board, or
2) is durable enough to tank shooting before it gets up the board.

But ... World Eaters are not "known" for either trait. They are not known to be the "jump pack" or "fly" army, nor are they death guard (known for durability). And yet, since they are known for being a melee army, they tend to give up or have worse shooting than comparable legions or factions. And in addition to this, they also give up psychic.

So, we have a legion that is worse at shooting, gives up psychic, and yet, it can't get up the board fast or reliably enough to get into close combat where it wants to be. Nor is it durable enough to just move up the board while tanking all the shooting. World Eaters never had any problems killing stuff once they are actually in close combat. The problem is getting their units into combat in the first place.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/06/10/daemon-weapons-promise-untold-power-if-your-chaos-space-marines-can-control-them/

I likethe slaanesh one even if the other seems better at first glance

 xttz wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/06/10/daemon-weapons-promise-untold-power-if-your-chaos-space-marines-can-control-them/

finally! Abbadon no longer gets slapped around by his own Daemon weapon!

charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote:
That is btw spot on the issue with GW and Khorne. They got stuck in this ,Khorne followers are dumb barbarians who smash everything with an Axe’ mentality for 40k and AoS.

Meanwhile there is so much unused potential for rewriting Khorne to a mich deeper, much more satisfying faction. Having more aspects that satisfy Khorne rather than just simple meele murder would already give it a lot of cool flair as others mentioned already. Also viewing the Nails as Curse/Blessing could provide a fresh take. Making Khorne some sort of hunter god, driven by the desire to find his prey and kill it, would also add up a load of possible new depth. Shedding more light on the context of Khorne hating psykers is another pathway to go.

I have really the hope that the upcoming rework of the WE will also give more depth to Khorne.

Iirc, in earlier editions Khorne also represented martial honor and prowess. Hence why the aversion to sorcery and firearms, because those are "dishonorable" and "lazy."
Then GW flanderized him into being a murder-hobo.

Hmm... so rather than having set Daemon Weapons, you apply the Daemon Weapon to the weapon you have.

I like that idea.

Of course, it won't mean much if the majority of our weapons turn into "Accursed Weapons", but it's a neat concept in and of itself.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Hmm... so rather than having set Daemon Weapons, you apply the Daemon Weapon to the weapon you have.

I like that idea.

Of course, it won't mean much if the majority of our weapons turn into "Accursed Weapons", but it's a neat concept in and of itself.

indeed, still though, knowing my rolls those things will turn my HQ's into sudoku commiting doubles.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Hmm... so rather than having set Daemon Weapons, you apply the Daemon Weapon to the weapon you have.

I like that idea.

Of course, it won't mean much if the majority of our weapons turn into "Accursed Weapons", but it's a neat concept in and of itself.

I'm more shocked I can shove them into the warp smiths Mechadentrites.

I can just see it now, shove the Tzeentch Daemon into them, they challenge the opponent to a game of Rock Paper Scissors, if Chaos wins, the opponent takes a Mortal Wound. If the opponent wins, the chaos warp smith implodes.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Hmm... so rather than having set Daemon Weapons, you apply the Daemon Weapon to the weapon you have.

I like that idea.

Of course, it won't mean much if the majority of our weapons turn into "Accursed Weapons", but it's a neat concept in and of itself.

indeed, still though, knowing my rolls those things will turn my HQ's into sudoku commiting doubles.

Hence why you have the choice of just not attacking with that demon weapon.
You could take the hits and continue to attack, or you can avoid damage and fight with a different weapon or your fists.

Ok, I like those rules, and love the fact that you can apply them to any melee weapon the model has. I wonder if you can give them to Daemon Princes? A Slaaneshi Prince with talons upgraded with Thaa'ris and Rhi'ol would be an absolute blender.

Edit: derped and forgot that this is already a thing currently. Still, 2D3 > 1D6.

NGL, Daemon Weapons actually look good for once. Amazingly well put together rules on the part of GW.

 xttz wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/06/10/daemon-weapons-promise-untold-power-if-your-chaos-space-marines-can-control-them/

Sooooo......you have to roll equal or less than the character's leadership on 2d6. That's very familiar. It seems like how Daemon Weapons worked in a certain previous codex, but better because you now have the option to avoid the MW. Interesting. Now, can we see the Legion relics? I want to know what they've done to Claws of the Black Hunt.

I rather like the idea of applying this to a Lightning Claw along with as many attack boosting buffs as I can lay my hands on.

 Cheex wrote:
Ok, I like those rules, and love the fact that you can apply them to any melee weapon the model has. I wonder if you can give them to Daemon Princes? A Slaaneshi Prince with talons upgraded with Thaa'ris and Rhi'ol would be an absolute blender.

Edit: derped and forgot that this is already a thing currently. Still, 2D3 > 1D6.

I was thinking the same thing regarding a Daemon Prince but I don't understand your Edit. If you buy 2 warp talons and give him the relic(s) then he would get 8 + 2d3 attacks per round (9 with daemonic strength). I don't know where you are getting the 1d6 from. And all of this doesn't include if GW upped the attacks of the DP like they did the Lord.

BTW is there any other model in Slaanesh that uses 2 melee weapons and can still shoot? I think Slaanesh needs to get a couple of Grey Knights to give up their wrist mounted stormbolters if he/she is going to only give daemonic weapons in pairs.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

 Cheex wrote:
Ok, I like those rules, and love the fact that you can apply them to any melee weapon the model has. I wonder if you can give them to Daemon Princes? A Slaaneshi Prince with talons upgraded with Thaa'ris and Rhi'ol would be an absolute blender.

Edit: derped and forgot that this is already a thing currently. Still, 2D3 > 1D6.

I was thinking the same thing regarding a Daemon Prince but I don't understand your Edit. If you buy 2 warp talons and give him the relic(s) then he would get 8 + 2d3 attacks per round (9 with daemonic strength). I don't know where you are getting the 1d6 from. And all of this doesn't include if GW upped the attacks of the DP like they did the Lord.

BTW is there any other model in Slaanesh that uses 2 melee weapons and can still shoot? I think Slaanesh needs to get a couple of Grey Knights to give up their wrist mounted stormbolters if he/she is going to only give daemonic weapons in pairs.

old Rapacious talons gave you additionnal attacks equal to what you got on your demon roll (so 1d6 extra attacks, with a minimum of 2)

Dudeface wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
World Eater, like a lot of things in 40k, have becomes so stupidly flanderised that it limits the design space.

There is nothing about Khorne that should limit the effective use of ranged weaponry.

Martial prowess appeals to Khorne, marksmanship and good kill rate with a weapon are all smiled upon in theory.

At the same time however, Khorne valued physical strength and overcoming obstacles through your own skills and strength. Excessive reliance on technology was seen as "cheating" or "lazy" in the same way that magic is seen as unfair/lazy by Khorne. That is why the Epic Daemon Engines of Khorne were generally limited to short to medium range, albeit with lots of shots. This meant they had to get up close and expose themselves to risk, though the daemon engines also fought the best in close combat. The only outlier was the Cannon of Khorne which had long range but inaccurate fire, and with a significant chance of blowing itself up from misfiring. I always saw that as Khorne imposing a trade off for the long range, and demanding some form of risk to the wielder.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Hmm... so rather than having set Daemon Weapons, you apply the Daemon Weapon to the weapon you have.

I like that idea.

Of course, it won't mean much if the majority of our weapons turn into "Accursed Weapons", but it's a neat concept in and of itself.

indeed, still though, knowing my rolls those things will turn my HQ's into sudoku commiting doubles.

Hence why you have the choice of just not attacking with that demon weapon.
You could take the hits and continue to attack, or you can avoid damage and fight with a different weapon or your fists.

If i feel like fielding a daemonweapon then i may aswell go the full length

but yeah atleast nowadays you can avoid Sudoku, which is good design imo

I think viewing Khorne as someone who says "no guns EVER" is definitely a wrong interpretation.

I mean, look what he gave his daemonic legions

As I noted in my post just a little earlier, based on past units by GW in Epic, Khorne's guns seem to require the wielder to be exposed to risk as a tradeoff. So they tend to be short ranged, requiring the wielder to get close and be exposed to enemy fire or risk of close combat, or if long ranged, they carry the risk of explosive misfire. Khorne seems to be against safe killing from a distance, against push button sterile warfare, and for up close visceral combat or at least some skin in the game from unreliable ranged weapons.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
The problem is also Khorne World Eater's delivery systems. What are the ways you can deliver your units into close combat where you want them to be.

Rhino transports? Just run up the board? Deep strike?

A melee army can only succeed if it is either
1) Fast enough to get up the board, or
2) is durable enough to tank shooting before it gets up the board.

But ... World Eaters are not "known" for either trait. They are not known to be the "jump pack" or "fly" army, nor are they death guard (known for durability). And yet, since they are known for being a melee army, they tend to give up or have worse shooting than comparable legions or factions. And in addition to this, they also give up psychic.

So, we have a legion that is worse at shooting, gives up psychic, and yet, it can't get up the board fast or reliably enough to get into close combat where it wants to be. Nor is it durable enough to just move up the board while tanking all the shooting. World Eaters never had any problems killing stuff once they are actually in close combat. The problem is getting their units into combat in the first place.

All elite melee armies suffer from delivery problems, not just World Eaters. All the attacks in the world don't matter if they never get into combat.

For World Eaters, delivery masks a bigger problem with mobility. Consider the following for an all melee PA army:

- When the game starts and there's nothing within 18" to charge. They just lost a turn in a 5 turn game.

- When they charge a single unit instead of multi-charging 2 units and overkill occurs. They just lost significant offensive potential in the only phase that matters.

- When they wipe out something in combat and the next nearest enemy unit is 18"+ away. They just lost 1 turn in a 5 turn game.

- When they wipe out something in combat and there's no way to consolidate into cover or LOS blocking terrain. They just left an expensive, elite PA unit exposed for doing what it's designed to do.

A successful WE Codex would offer an answer to each of these problems. It's more than a matter of getting there, it's also being effective once you're there.

 Karhedron wrote:


I rather like the idea of applying this to a Lightning Claw along with as many attack boosting buffs as I can lay my hands on.

Eh, it doesn't say 6s though, just straight up successful wounds. Thunder Hammer is still better here I wager but I didn't math it out.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:


I rather like the idea of applying this to a Lightning Claw along with as many attack boosting buffs as I can lay my hands on.

Eh, it doesn't say 6s though, just straight up successful wounds. Thunder Hammer is still better here I wager but I didn't math it out.

It depends, I think.
If you're hunting infantry, you'll want claws.
If you're hunting larger targets, you'll want the hammer.

Do mortal wounds spill over? If so, claws can be a nasty little squad clearer.

Also interesting to note that Ul'o'cca can only be equipped by a CHAOS UNDIVIDED model. Seems that they may have gotten around that particular hangup, finally.

Seems that way.

They drilled into us that there was no such thing, it was always Chaos unaligned (small 'u'). Whomever was keeping that alive at the studio must be long gone!