Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
I rather like the idea of applying this to a Lightning Claw along with as many attack boosting buffs as I can lay my hands on.
Eh, it doesn't say 6s though, just straight up successful wounds. Thunder Hammer is still better here I wager but I didn't math it out.
It depends, I think.
If you're hunting infantry, you'll want claws.
If you're hunting larger targets, you'll want the hammer.
Do mortal wounds spill over? If so, claws can be a nasty little squad clearer.
S8 vs S4 rerolling wounds comes out to S8 wounding more still. The caveat is how many more mortal wounds you get from that extra attack from the lightning claw.
I rather like the idea of applying this to a Lightning Claw along with as many attack boosting buffs as I can lay my hands on.
Eh, it doesn't say 6s though, just straight up successful wounds. Thunder Hammer is still better here I wager but I didn't math it out.
It depends, I think.
If you're hunting infantry, you'll want claws.
If you're hunting larger targets, you'll want the hammer.
Do mortal wounds spill over? If so, claws can be a nasty little squad clearer.
S8 vs S4 rerolling wounds comes out to S8 wounding more still. The caveat is how many more mortal wounds you get from that extra attack from the lightning claw.
Also the lightning claws hit better too.
I would definitely lean on this daemon weapon being best on whatever can generate the most separate wounds to get the most out of the mortal wounds it generates.
They drilled into us that there was no such thing, it was always Chaos unaligned (small 'u'). Whomever was keeping that alive at the studio must be long gone!
Yes, I remember you telling me that about your time working on the FF games.
We haven't had the option to take a Mark of Chaos Undivided since 3.5. And the new Daemon Weapons rules seem like an "improved" version of the old Mastery Test from the same book. Could they have finally pulled their heads out and started looking at the rightCSM codex for inspiration? It seems like an unlikely hope......
Aesyn wrote: Anyone else think Ul'O'Cca the black is kind underwhelming? It's a Master crafted weapon that deals it's extra 1 damage more often...
It's not a master crafted weapon, it generates mortal wounds in addition to normal damage, so that's ignoring invulns and will spill over to other models, it's pretty damn amazing really.
Aesyn wrote: Anyone else think Ul'O'Cca the black is kind underwhelming? It's a Master crafted weapon that deals it's extra 1 damage more often...
It's not a master crafted weapon, it generates mortal wounds in addition to normal damage, so that's ignoring invulns and will spill over to other models, it's pretty damn amazing really.
I'm assuming the weapon it's upgrading retains its traits, so if you put it on a lightning claw it has -2AP and rerolls to wound. However, I don't think you can have it on a pair of lightning claws. Maybe you can still get the attack bonus if you have one daemon lightning claw and one normal.
I would think the slaanesh daemon weapon is meant to be put on lightning claws because it requires a paired weapon.
S8 vs S4 rerolling wounds comes out to S8 wounding more still. The caveat is how many more mortal wounds you get from that extra attack from the lightning claw.
Yeah, but the thunder hammer suffers from a hit penalty and deals 3 damage, making it less optimal against groups of units. That D3 is wasted on 2W and less models.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/06/10 16:08:50
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
I'm very impressed by the Berserkers. Sure, they cost 22 ppm and they lost access to a lot of options and the double fight thing.
However, they still have an impressive 6 Attacks per model on charge at Strength 6 and most importantly, they have easy access to AP-3 melee Attacks (Icons cost only 5 points). They even get to AP-4 with the reprinted stratagem "Wild Fury".
Also Kharn can now reroll all of his Attacks. About damn time.
EDIT :
Kharn cannot reroll his own Attacks. Also, I added the Warlord Traits page.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/06/10 17:05:51
Aesyn wrote: Anyone else think Ul'O'Cca the black is kind underwhelming? It's a Master crafted weapon that deals it's extra 1 damage more often...
It's not a master crafted weapon, it generates mortal wounds in addition to normal damage, so that's ignoring invulns and will spill over to other models, it's pretty damn amazing really.
I'm assuming the weapon it's upgrading retains its traits, so if you put it on a lightning claw it has -2AP and rerolls to wound.
However, I don't think you can have it on a pair of lightning claws. Maybe you can still get the attack bonus if you have one daemon lightning claw and one normal.
I would think the slaanesh daemon weapon is meant to be put on lightning claws because it requires a paired weapon.
I think that it would work as 1 lighting claw being the Daemon Weapon, and the other "normal". So if you pass your Daemon Weapon "test", you make all of your attacks for the Daemon Weapon, then you get your +1 attack with your "normal" lighting claw. If you fail the test, you have the option to take d3 MWs and attack with it anyway, or just make your normal attacks with the "normal" lighting claw, and avoid the MWs entirely.
So, assuming a Chaos Lord has 6A, it would work:
Pass Daemon Weapon Test:
7A with the Daemon Weapon (6+1 because it's a lightning claw) with the MWs on successful wounds, then 1A with the "normal" lightning claw.
Fail Daemon Weapon Test, either:
1: Take the d3MWs, and do the previous. Or:
2: Don't take the MWs and make 7A (6+1 because it's a lightning claw) with the "normal" lighting claw.
6 attacks is nice, but... Well, Kharn could roll PERFECTLY and not even kill a Dread or Carnifex. Hell, even with the important S6 breakpoint, he only averages one and a half dead Plague Marines.
Wait-Kharn still fights twice.
Okay, so he kills three Plague Marines on a normal round of combat. But less than 3 damage to a T7 Dread or Carnifex. It does increase to just shy of 5 damage. That's... I dunno. It feels low.
Edit: He doesn't kill a RHINO on the charge. That feels really weak for Kharn.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/10 16:34:05
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
I'm very impressed by the Berserkers. Sure, they cost 22 ppm and they lost access to a lot of options and the double fight thing.
However, they still have an impressive 6 Attacks per model on charge at Strength 6 and most importantly, they have easy access to AP-3 melee Attacks (Icons cost only 5 points). They even get to AP-4 with the reprinted stratagem "Wild Fury".
Also Kharn can now reroll all of his Attacks. About damn time.
They lost access to the double fighting because the attacks are basically incorporated into the profile. That's actually a good thing and less clunky.
Selfcontrol wrote: The current Kharn is also gak against Monsters/Vehicles tbh. Even more so than thanks to the old "The Betrayer".
The "new one" is still better but yeah, I think that Gorechild should have been D3 flat damages instead of D2. Especially for a named HQ.
Given the power creep, I was expecting at least D3 on Gorechild.
And actually, the current Kharn is BETTER against any -1 Damage target than the new Kharn. Not only does d3 damage occasionally let you take two wounds off instead of one, he also gets one more attack per fight thanks to Hateful Assault. The exception is T7 models (which is, admittedly, pretty common) since he's only S6, while new Kharn is S7 on the charge.
Oh, but he also gets Death To The False Emperor. So...
Old Kharn-16 attacks, 16 hits
New Kharn-14 attacks, 11.67 hits
Against T5 or less, old Kharn is better by about 37%, assuming damage doesn't matter.
Against T8 or more, old Kharn is better by the same amount, assuming damage averages out.
Against T6, old Kharn is fractionally better. Like, 3% ish.
Against T7, old Kharn is about 10% worse.
All this assumes new Kharn charged to get S7. Otherwise, old Kharn is just better, unless you're specifically dealing with W2 models without -1 Damage. And even then, I'm not sure that new Kharn is better.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
I think we both agree that Kharn is a bit underwhelming.
The loss of Hateful Assault and Death to the False Emperor was a given though (even though it is partially compensated by the new chaosy-like doctrines where you get exploding 6s but it's only on turn 4-5 if I remember the leaks correctly).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/10 16:52:19
Ok, GW.... seriously. No.
Pick a profile. Don't make a unit that is somewhere between
S5, AP2, 5 attacks and S7 AP4 and 6 attacks depending on how many layers of buffs you've got going on. (plus whatever wanton slaughter does)
Also:
Blood for the Blood God: fight one additional time
Blood for the Blood God! auto pass morale tests.
Swapping a colon for an exclamation point is not sufficient. Call one something else. They're next to each other on the page, for feth's sake!
Gadzilla666 wrote: Stoke the Nails puts the target unit in "Wanton Slaughter". Uughh.....we're really getting "Spiky Doctrines".
For now. My guess is that this is to hold over for the initial CSM codex release, and then the full World Eaters codex is a bit after that. Keep in mind we DID see a preview of the new weapons that Berserker Marines will have (at least a 3D print rendering anyway) and there was a larger Chainaxe amongst them.
There'd be no way that World Eaters would follow a very rigid structure like the doctrines but Death Guard just...don't. I'd actually say patience on this one.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Stoke the Nails puts the target unit in "Wanton Slaughter". Uughh.....we're really getting "Spiky Doctrines".
For now. My guess is that this is to hold over for the initial CSM codex release, and then the full World Eaters codex is a bit after that. Keep in mind we DID see a preview of the new weapons that Berserker Marines will have (at least a 3D print rendering anyway) and there was a larger Chainaxe amongst them.
There'd be no way that World Eaters would follow a very rigid structure like the doctrines but Death Guard just...don't. I'd actually say patience on this one.
That might be true for World Eaters, but not for the 6 Legions that remain in the CSM codex, and apparently, follow the Codex Astartes, in gw's opinion. Just with exploding 6s instead of extra AP.
What can the design brief be saying to get books like this?
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Stoke the Nails puts the target unit in "Wanton Slaughter". Uughh.....we're really getting "Spiky Doctrines".
For now. My guess is that this is to hold over for the initial CSM codex release, and then the full World Eaters codex is a bit after that. Keep in mind we DID see a preview of the new weapons that Berserker Marines will have (at least a 3D print rendering anyway) and there was a larger Chainaxe amongst them.
There'd be no way that World Eaters would follow a very rigid structure like the doctrines but Death Guard just...don't. I'd actually say patience on this one.
That might be true for World Eaters, but not for the 6 Legions that remain in the CSM codex, and apparently, follow the Codex Astartes, in gw's opinion. Just with exploding 6s instead of extra AP.
Whilst I understand and agree the general purpose of Marines in combat regardless of legion, chapter or era is a blitzkrieg over application of force on a key target, so if its meant to represent that I can respect it, albeit as a lazy approximation.
Voss wrote: Ok, GW.... seriously. No.
Pick a profile. Don't make a unit that is somewhere between
S5, AP2, 5 attacks and S7 AP4 and 6 attacks depending on how many layers of buffs you've got going on. (plus whatever wanton slaughter does)
Also:
Blood for the Blood God: fight one additional time
Blood for the Blood God! auto pass morale tests.
Swapping a colon for an exclamation point is not sufficient. Call one something else. They're next to each other on the page, for feth's sake!
Wow, that's like a new low when it comes to rules name. We gave up USRs for this?
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
Gadzilla666 wrote: Stoke the Nails puts the target unit in "Wanton Slaughter". Uughh.....we're really getting "Spiky Doctrines".
For now. My guess is that this is to hold over for the initial CSM codex release, and then the full World Eaters codex is a bit after that. Keep in mind we DID see a preview of the new weapons that Berserker Marines will have (at least a 3D print rendering anyway) and there was a larger Chainaxe amongst them.
There'd be no way that World Eaters would follow a very rigid structure like the doctrines but Death Guard just...don't. I'd actually say patience on this one.
That might be true for World Eaters, but not for the 6 Legions that remain in the CSM codex, and apparently, follow the Codex Astartes, in gw's opinion. Just with exploding 6s instead of extra AP.
I'm not defending the Doctrine mechanic CSM at all, but "wait and see" is unfortunately the correct answer here at least for World Eaters. We have NO info about the official codex for World Eaters besides that it's coming. Not even playtest rules that were leaked.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Stoke the Nails puts the target unit in "Wanton Slaughter". Uughh.....we're really getting "Spiky Doctrines".
For now. My guess is that this is to hold over for the initial CSM codex release, and then the full World Eaters codex is a bit after that. Keep in mind we DID see a preview of the new weapons that Berserker Marines will have (at least a 3D print rendering anyway) and there was a larger Chainaxe amongst them.
There'd be no way that World Eaters would follow a very rigid structure like the doctrines but Death Guard just...don't. I'd actually say patience on this one.
That might be true for World Eaters, but not for the 6 Legions that remain in the CSM codex, and apparently, follow the Codex Astartes, in gw's opinion. Just with exploding 6s instead of extra AP.
Whilst I understand and agree the general purpose of Marines in combat regardless of legion, chapter or era is a blitzkrieg over application of force on a key target, so if its meant to represent that I can respect it, albeit as a lazy approximation.
See, it's that "lazy" part that gets me. They took the time and effort to come up with all of these other interesting thematic rules for other factions: Crossfire, Adaptations, Contagions, etc, etc. But for CSM? "Just give them the same thing as loyalists. But exploding 6s, because that's more random. And Chaos = Random." It just shows that they didn't try. It might work, and be effective, but it completely lacks any imagination.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/10 18:27:03
I am just going to use my Horus Heresy infantry with Bolters and Chain Bayonets as Khorne Bezerkers and because I have the blessing of playing with normal people, they will accept the wargear as Chainaxes/Chainswords/etc.
The biggest indicator someone is a loser is them complaining about 3d printers or piracy.
~4100
~1660
