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 blood reaper wrote:
I am just going to use my Horus Heresy infantry with Bolters and Chain Bayonets as Khorne Bezerkers and because I have the blessing of playing with normal people, they will accept the wargear as Chainaxes/Chainswords/etc.

You mean you used models in a manner that was discussed with someone in a conversational and civil manner to work around a problem or reach a mutual understanding? Careful now. Some people will call you a shilling white knight GW apologist because the players shouldn't need to compromise for GW such as not having bolter armed berzerkers.

I guess it's to be expected for a WD ruleset, and given the lack of models it wouldn't be able to match the Harlequins or Crusher Stampede in terms of viability, though you'd think GW would at least make the wargear a bit more meaningful for the key unit of the legion.

I'm kicking myself for not picking up the master of possession for $12 on ebay a month ago. Now that the combat patrol is coming, the price has skyrocketed.

So, generally happy with the basic improvement to how daemon weapons work, but it seems yet again Chaos pays a risk to get a worse relic than other factions.

So I can upgrade a Daemon Prince's sword to do 1 MW on a succesful wound, in return I have to pass a Ld test to use it.

Or, I can go Tyranids and upgrade a Hive Tyrant's sword to do 1 MW on a sucessful wound and ignore wound cap limits (Ghaz, C'tan, etc). No pesky Ld test required.

It makes no sense, the daemon weapon has a downside, so should be a better upgrade when you pass the test.

The Rapacious Talons still look lit, but imo, they should have kept the 8th edition manner of determining if you could use a daemon weapon or not.

GW fails properly when it comes to reasonable chaos rules. I have the feeling that GW doesn't know how to deal with chaos. Everything seems to be planned without a theme and thoughtless.
They just scavenged some rules from the SM codex and changed them a bit (i.e. made them worse, because Chaos...). Many units seem to be below the level of other codices. Also the many randomness and weaknesses, without really strong compensation leave a sallow taste.
Instead of Chaos being a powerhouse with clear lines, it seems more like a weak Frankenstein. Here I miss the proper rules implementation of the background where chaos is supposed to be the big enemy.

I really hope that there will be some positive surprises in the final codex, but I can't believe that.

On the world eaters stuff, Zerks look decent, Khârn is still bad. On the other hand, still having the red butchers strat is a nice and unexpected. With the new "accursed weapons" plus that... not too bad at all.

Disappointed that Kharn is so gak.

Dudeface wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
I am just going to use my Horus Heresy infantry with Bolters and Chain Bayonets as Khorne Bezerkers and because I have the blessing of playing with normal people, they will accept the wargear as Chainaxes/Chainswords/etc.

You mean you used models in a manner that was discussed with someone in a conversational and civil manner to work around a problem or reach a mutual understanding? Careful now. Some people will call you a shilling white knight GW apologist because the players shouldn't need to compromise for GW such as not having bolter armed berzerkers.

I mean I don't think the players should have to compromise - it's just in this case I don't care about WYSIWYG and it's a very easy proxy - the KB statline is the same across every model with the exception of the sergeant. There isn't any wargear I need to remodel or change, there isn't any adjustments I need to make. Rather than 9 dudes with a Chainaxe/Chainsword and Bolt Pistol, plus 1 extra mean dude with a Chainaxe/Chainsword and Bolt pistol, it's 9 dudes with Bolters, and one extra mean dude with Bolter.

Also I just think guys with bolters and chain bayonets look cool. I don't really wanna have to buy a bunch of additional arms and bolt pistols, and knowing GWs tendency to change up rulesets, I might as just model them as I say fit and say "everyone has a combi-plasma" or whatever.

Dudeface wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
I am just going to use my Horus Heresy infantry with Bolters and Chain Bayonets as Khorne Bezerkers and because I have the blessing of playing with normal people, they will accept the wargear as Chainaxes/Chainswords/etc.

You mean you used models in a manner that was discussed with someone in a conversational and civil manner to work around a problem or reach a mutual understanding? Careful now. Some people will call you a shilling white knight GW apologist because the players shouldn't need to compromise for GW such as not having bolter armed berzerkers.

That's not why people argue regarding GW's rules and you damn well know that.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
I am just going to use my Horus Heresy infantry with Bolters and Chain Bayonets as Khorne Bezerkers and because I have the blessing of playing with normal people, they will accept the wargear as Chainaxes/Chainswords/etc.

You mean you used models in a manner that was discussed with someone in a conversational and civil manner to work around a problem or reach a mutual understanding? Careful now. Some people will call you a shilling white knight GW apologist because the players shouldn't need to compromise for GW such as not having bolter armed berzerkers.

That's not why people argue regarding GW's rules and you damn well know that.

I considered responding to their initial comment more critically but I've come to the view there really isn't value in debate on forums. I will say for one, I doubt anyone is going to call me a shill or white knight for saying I plan to proxy. They may call me a shill or white knight if I suggest this is a compromise everyone should be willing to make and that there isn't an issue in the first place; in that case, they'd probably be correct.

Also in all honesty I just think guys running forward chain bayoneting people is cool. Plus Bolters have pistol grips and are made to be used in one hand (if trained properly enough) - I am sure plenty of Khorne Bezerkers have run around wildly firing Bolters while swinging chain axes - horrendously reducing their accuracy and effective fire to something similar to a bolt pistol.

Bit of an emotional roller coaster ride on those Berzerkers for me.

Starting off: ok, same PL cost.
Low: I can't run 20-strong blobs any more. I was starting to enjoy that.
High: that's a lot of attacks.
Plateau: they lose BftBG. That's fine, I was expecting it.
Low: Champions lost all their wargear options. Well, bugger me and my 10+ converted Champions, I guess.
High: wait, they all get AP-2 weapons and the icon gives them another -1. I guess the champion doesn't need a special melee weapon.

 blood reaper wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
I am just going to use my Horus Heresy infantry with Bolters and Chain Bayonets as Khorne Bezerkers and because I have the blessing of playing with normal people, they will accept the wargear as Chainaxes/Chainswords/etc.

You mean you used models in a manner that was discussed with someone in a conversational and civil manner to work around a problem or reach a mutual understanding? Careful now. Some people will call you a shilling white knight GW apologist because the players shouldn't need to compromise for GW such as not having bolter armed berzerkers.

That's not why people argue regarding GW's rules and you damn well know that.

I considered responding to their initial comment more critically but I've come to the view there really isn't value in debate on forums. I will say for one, I doubt anyone is going to call me a shill or white knight for saying I plan to proxy. They may call me a shill or white knight if I suggest this is a compromise everyone should be willing to make and that there isn't an issue in the first place; in that case, they'd probably be correct.

Also in all honesty I just think guys running forward chain bayoneting people is cool. Plus Bolters have pistol grips and are made to be used in one hand (if trained properly enough) - I am sure plenty of Khorne Bezerkers have run around wildly firing Bolters while swinging chain axes - horrendously reducing their accuracy and effective fire to something similar to a bolt pistol.

It was obviously meant in jest, no need to be critical or get your knickers in a twist there EviscerationPlague.

In all seriousness its a fair proxy and I'd have no issues at all playing against that, nor would anyone else being reasonable.

Auspex Tactics made a video about the WE Index but he also has the relics !

- Crimson Killer : a better plasma pistol => S9 AP-3 D3 and 1 MW inflicted on 4+ ;

- Banner of Rage : priest only => once per game, +1 Attack for World Eaters within 6" at the start of the Combat Phase ;

- Gorefather : replaces a power axe or exalted power axe => S+2 AP-2 D3 and a wound roll of 6 (unmodified) cause 3 MW instead of normal damages ;

- Berserker Glaive : replaces power axe or exalted power axe => S+2 AP-3 D2 and the bearer has a 5+ FNP (note : better stat than the one from PA/Charadon) ;

- Helm of Furore : infantry only => gives +2S to the bearer but he has to declare charge against unit within 8" if he can ;

- Bloodhunger : each slain model gives you one Wound back on a roll of 5+ (maximum 6 per turn) (note : it's a nerf).

What's interesting to me is the reference to an "exalted power axe". I think it is a fair guess to think it is the chaos equivalent of mastercrafted weapons. What I'm really curious is if Daemon Weapons can be applied to exalted weapons. If that is the case, they can definitely slap very very hard.

Exalted Power Axe is probably just this guy:

Exalted champion:

Same loadout as the model (power axe, combi melta & pistol)
Is elite and is now a lieutenant (rerolls 1 to wound @6")
Cannot change loadout
Hits better, more wounds, more attacks

I'm guessing that an "Exalted Power Axe" is the D2 power axe that we saw in the Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour instructions. Probably a "character only" thing.

Gorefather is straight up much better than Gorechild. Like, it isn't even close.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Gorefather is straight up much better than Gorechild. Like, it isn't even close.

Yes and no.

Gorefather is AP-2 which is rather meh. Gorechild for its flaws, is at least AP-4.

 MinscS2 wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Gorefather is straight up much better than Gorechild. Like, it isn't even close.

Yes and no.

Gorefather is AP-2 which is rather meh. Gorechild for its flaws, is at least AP-4.

Eh... The first point of AP is the most important one.

So unless you've got a 0+ model in melee, Gorefather will pretty much always be better.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Gorefather is straight up much better than Gorechild. Like, it isn't even close.

Yes and no.

Gorefather is AP-2 which is rather meh. Gorechild for its flaws, is at least AP-4.

Eh... The first point of AP is the most important one.

So unless you've got a 0+ model in melee, Gorefather will pretty much always be better.

With Armor of Contempt we might as well say the first two points are the most important.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Gorefather is straight up much better than Gorechild. Like, it isn't even close.

Yes and no.

Gorefather is AP-2 which is rather meh. Gorechild for its flaws, is at least AP-4.

Eh... The first point of AP is the most important one.

So unless you've got a 0+ model in melee, Gorefather will pretty much always be better.

With Armor of Contempt we might as well say the first two points are the most important.

First point that has any effect, I should say.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Gorefather is straight up much better than Gorechild. Like, it isn't even close.

Yes and no.

Gorefather is AP-2 which is rather meh. Gorechild for its flaws, is at least AP-4.

Eh... The first point of AP is the most important one.

So unless you've got a 0+ model in melee, Gorefather will pretty much always be better.

With Armor of Contempt we might as well say the first two points are the most important.

Lol pays to keep up with those balance data slates.

Cons: All my lovingly kitbashed Berzerkers are technically illegal now. GW's devotion to this idiotic 'no models = no rules' (or more specifically 'no options in the kit = no options in the rules') paradigm is gradually killing my enthusiasm for 40K.

Pros: Like blood reaper, I play with sane human beings who don't view official GW rules as unbreakable religious tenets, so nobody will mind that my Berzerkers don't have pistols and the champion has a power fist.

*Shrugs*: We all know these rules will get completely changed again once the WE codex comes out with a new Berzerker kit. Powerfisting champions (and maybe even chainaxe+chainsword Berzerkers) might well become legal again, depending on what's in the new kit. So none of this matters, really.

I feel sorry for anyone whose models have just become illegal and who play with people who insist on strict WYSIWYG and adherence to GW's crackpot 'official' rules, though. If I was in that position, I'd have quit GW years ago.

 Duskweaver wrote:
Cons: All my lovingly kitbashed Berzerkers are technically illegal now. GW's devotion to this idiotic 'no models = no rules' (or more specifically 'no options in the kit = no options in the rules') paradigm is gradually killing my enthusiasm for 40K.

Pros: Like blood reaper, I play with sane human beings who don't view official GW rules as unbreakable religious tenets, so nobody will mind that my Berzerkers don't have pistols and the champion has a power fist.

*Shrugs*: We all know these rules will get completely changed again once the WE codex comes out with a new Berzerker kit. Powerfisting champions (and maybe even chainaxe+chainsword Berzerkers) might well become legal again, depending on what's in the new kit. So none of this matters, really.

I feel sorry for anyone whose models have just become illegal and who play with people who insist on strict WYSIWYG and adherence to GW's crackpot 'official' rules, though. If I was in that position, I'd have quit GW years ago.

I thought the assumption was that if they come with the equipment automatically (like grenades) then even if you don't model it, they still have it.

EightFoldPath wrote:
So, generally happy with the basic improvement to how daemon weapons work, but it seems yet again Chaos pays a risk to get a worse relic than other factions.

So I can upgrade a Daemon Prince's sword to do 1 MW on a succesful wound, in return I have to pass a Ld test to use it.

Or, I can go Tyranids and upgrade a Hive Tyrant's sword to do 1 MW on a sucessful wound and ignore wound cap limits (Ghaz, C'tan, etc). No pesky Ld test required.

It makes no sense, the daemon weapon has a downside, so should be a better upgrade when you pass the test.

"Other factions" here just meaning.... Tyranids.

They are not a reasonable barometer to be comparing anything to.

No other faction, to my knowledge, gets a relic that just lets you do MW's on a successful wound without a specific dice result needed first.

That daemon weapon specifically sounds monstrously powerful as-is. Daemon Princes with Swords are going to be doing like 6 MW's to anything they touch on top of any actual damage from failed saves.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Can I please have my Berzerker Champion options back?

GW: "But of course, here are three options to build them from the new box:
- Power fist and plasma pistol
- Chain axe and bolt pistol
- Greater chain axe

No mixing and the bits fit with none of the other models.
Also the model is mono-pose mid-jump from a pile of skulls"

 Bosskelot wrote:

EightFoldPath wrote:
So, generally happy with the basic improvement to how daemon weapons work, but it seems yet again Chaos pays a risk to get a worse relic than other factions.

So I can upgrade a Daemon Prince's sword to do 1 MW on a succesful wound, in return I have to pass a Ld test to use it.

Or, I can go Tyranids and upgrade a Hive Tyrant's sword to do 1 MW on a sucessful wound and ignore wound cap limits (Ghaz, C'tan, etc). No pesky Ld test required.

It makes no sense, the daemon weapon has a downside, so should be a better upgrade when you pass the test.

"Other factions" here just meaning.... Tyranids.

They are not a reasonable barometer to be comparing anything to.

No other faction, to my knowledge, gets a relic that just lets you do MW's on a successful wound without a specific dice result needed first.

That daemon weapon specifically sounds monstrously powerful as-is. Daemon Princes with Swords are going to be doing like 6 MW's to anything they touch on top of any actual damage from failed saves.

It's also a pretty bad comparison if you're aware that a Hive Tyrant is a ~200pt model about to receive a points hike, and is limited to one per detachment.

Meanwhile daemon weapons seem like they can go onto a fairly wide range of units and weapons. It's probably fair to assume that there will be some combination that allows for much more than the HT's 5 base attacks.

We also don't know if Daemon Princes are going to get a datasheet overhaul when their new kit is finally released.

 Bosskelot wrote:

EightFoldPath wrote:
So, generally happy with the basic improvement to how daemon weapons work, but it seems yet again Chaos pays a risk to get a worse relic than other factions.

So I can upgrade a Daemon Prince's sword to do 1 MW on a succesful wound, in return I have to pass a Ld test to use it.

Or, I can go Tyranids and upgrade a Hive Tyrant's sword to do 1 MW on a sucessful wound and ignore wound cap limits (Ghaz, C'tan, etc). No pesky Ld test required.

It makes no sense, the daemon weapon has a downside, so should be a better upgrade when you pass the test.

"Other factions" here just meaning.... Tyranids.

They are not a reasonable barometer to be comparing anything to.

No other faction, to my knowledge, gets a relic that just lets you do MW's on a successful wound without a specific dice result needed first.

That daemon weapon specifically sounds monstrously powerful as-is. Daemon Princes with Swords are going to be doing like 6 MW's to anything they touch on top of any actual damage from failed saves.

Kurnous' Bow does MWs on a successful wound roll, smack it on a Farseer who is BS2, give her Mark of the Incomparable Hunter for +1 Str and 6s to wound inflict 1 MW in addition, Hail of Doom for Shuriken on 6s to hit (2 MWs) and then Blade Storm for exploding 6s to hit as its a shuriken weapon, all from 18" away with Battle Focus either on a jetbike or on foot. Believe the max MWs it can do is 12 MWs and you can pump it with Fate Dice to get a higher spike from it, on average its around 2-3 MWs without it jumping to 4 MWs with a single SoF hit.

Wow, I bet such a powerful relic requires a leadership test from the farseer to use each turn!

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I thought the assumption was that if they come with the equipment automatically (like grenades) then even if you don't model it, they still have it.

Oh, quite possibly. My powerfist champion is still technically illegal, though. Nobody in my gaming group is likely to object to me keeping the fist anyway, especially as these are just 'get-you-by' rules until the WE codex appears.