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EightFoldPath wrote: Wow, I bet such a powerful relic requires a leadership test from the farseer to use each turn!
It just takes their faction ability with some luck to get a 6 or pool of, a warlord trait and 2 stratagems to have a chance of doing as many as a lightning claw lord, oh heavens how poorly done to chaos is.
EightFoldPath wrote: Wow, I bet such a powerful relic requires a leadership test from the farseer to use each turn!
It just takes their faction ability with some luck to get a 6 or pool of, a warlord trait and 2 stratagems to have a chance of doing as many as a lightning claw lord, oh heavens how poorly done to chaos is.
I was raising an eyebrow too, don't see how stacking 4-odd buffs is analogous. Totally apples to oranges.
EightFoldPath wrote: Wow, I bet such a powerful relic requires a leadership test from the farseer to use each turn!
It just takes their faction ability with some luck to get a 6 or pool of, a warlord trait and 2 stratagems to have a chance of doing as many as a lightning claw lord, oh heavens how poorly done to chaos is.
I was raising an eyebrow too, don't see how stacking 4-odd buffs is analogous. Totally apples to oranges.
Yeah, that's not comparing one relic option to another, that's comparing HQ choices with all the buffs you can stack on top of them.
I do hope we see some HH vehicles put into CSM, I think tooling up land raiders/spartans to actually be good would help alot. Maybe give the land raider half damage and spartan only takes so many a phase.
I would also like normal drop pods back for CSM as its annoying 99% of all chaos transports are just rhinos.
I never understand why people want "normal" drop pods for Chaos. Dreadclaws are one of the few instances where what Chaos gets is actually superior to what loyalists get. And they're also one of the few instances where we get access to a Heresy era unit that loyalists don't also get. They just need to put them in the right FOC slot.
@ClockworkZion: You mentioned earlier in the thread that Warcom had asked the devs about the Kratos being available to Chaos. Do you know if they ever mentioned getting a response?
Gadzilla666 wrote: I never understand why people want "normal" drop pods for Chaos.
Because Dreadclaws are an expensive resin kit that can only be bought from Forge World and cost more than two standard Drop Pod kits.
So you should be asking for a full plastic Dreadclaw kit. Which would be an easy add to the current HH releases, as the kit isn't an actual full resin kit, it's a plastic drop pod kit with a few resin conversion pieces. It would be an easy thing for gw to do in 100% plastic. And it wouldn't take CSM even further down the road to being nothing but loyalists but "Spiky".
EightFoldPath wrote: Wow, I bet such a powerful relic requires a leadership test from the farseer to use each turn!
It just takes their faction ability with some luck to get a 6 or pool of, a warlord trait and 2 stratagems to have a chance of doing as many as a lightning claw lord, oh heavens how poorly done to chaos is.
I was raising an eyebrow too, don't see how stacking 4-odd buffs is analogous. Totally apples to oranges.
Yeah, that's not comparing one relic option to another, that's comparing HQ choices with all the buffs you can stack on top of them.
Thank you for your help team. Could someone tell me what strategems I need to use to activate "Each time an attack is made with this weapon, if that attack successfully wounds the target, it inflicts 1 mortal wound on the target and the attack sequence ends." on the Bow relic?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/11 20:25:53
EightFoldPath wrote: Wow, I bet such a powerful relic requires a leadership test from the farseer to use each turn!
It just takes their faction ability with some luck to get a 6 or pool of, a warlord trait and 2 stratagems to have a chance of doing as many as a lightning claw lord, oh heavens how poorly done to chaos is.
I was raising an eyebrow too, don't see how stacking 4-odd buffs is analogous. Totally apples to oranges.
Yeah, that's not comparing one relic option to another, that's comparing HQ choices with all the buffs you can stack on top of them.
Thank you for your help team. Could someone tell me what strategems I need to use to activate "Each time an attack is made with this weapon, if that attack successfully wounds the target, it inflicts 1 mortal wound on the target and the attack sequence ends." on the Bow relic?
You don't, it's a 3 shot pistol with a damage characteristic of - so max of 3 mortal wounds.
A chaos lord now with a lightning claw would do 6 attacks on the charge with exploding 6's to hit, ws 2+ and rerolls of 1, then reroll of wound rolls, so even on a bad day likely to rack up 3 mw the same + the possible damage from the claw itself.
No legion trait, Mark, warlord trait, strats or even using improved 9th profiles.
Gadzilla666 wrote: I never understand why people want "normal" drop pods for Chaos. Dreadclaws are one of the few instances where what Chaos gets is actually superior to what loyalists get. And they're also one of the few instances where we get access to a Heresy era unit that loyalists don't also get. They just need to put them in the right FOC slot.
@ClockworkZion: You mentioned earlier in the thread that Warcom had asked the devs about the Kratos being available to Chaos. Do you know if they ever mentioned getting a response?
Nothing yet. They also commented that they were passing it up on Facebook but I have yet to see a follow up.
Gadzilla666 wrote: I never understand why people want "normal" drop pods for Chaos.
Because Dreadclaws are an expensive resin kit that can only be bought from Forge World and cost more than two standard Drop Pod kits.
The biggest pain I think, is the fact the Loyalists Drop Pods are dedicated transports and Dreadclaw's come out of Chaos's fast attack slot's. Also it's 25 points too expensive (IMHO).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/06/11 21:55:48
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Gadzilla666 wrote: I never understand why people want "normal" drop pods for Chaos.
Because Dreadclaws are an expensive resin kit that can only be bought from Forge World and cost more than two standard Drop Pod kits.
The biggest pain I think, is the fact the Loyalists Drop Pods are dedicated transports and Dreadclaw's come out of Chaos's fast attack slot's. Also it's 25 points too expensive (IMHO).
Yeah, like I said: They need to put Dreadclaws in the right FOC slot.
The really annoying thing is: they actually did put Dreadclaws in the Dedicated Transports slot in the first CA of 9th edition (2020?). But then the Compendium comes out aaaannndd......it's back in FA again, with deployment rules that didn't work correctly. They've since fixed the latter problem, but not the former. And they don't appear to be in any kind of a rush to get it done.
EightFoldPath wrote: Wow, I bet such a powerful relic requires a leadership test from the farseer to use each turn!
It just takes their faction ability with some luck to get a 6 or pool of, a warlord trait and 2 stratagems to have a chance of doing as many as a lightning claw lord, oh heavens how poorly done to chaos is.
Yea I agree. I play Eldar and I would gladly give up the bow pistol (which I have used and it is better on paper then in game) for an ability to take ANY close combat weapon and add 1 mortal wound for every wound roll keeping the underlying damage, even if it required an old school leadership test. I use scroprions as well, which do a mortal on a 6 to wound and it adds up quick. Personally, I would bet this relic gets nerfed 6-8 months from now with a mortal wound cap.
The fact is the Slannesh one looks under powered to me as it just adds more attacks.
EightFoldPath wrote: Wow, I bet such a powerful relic requires a leadership test from the farseer to use each turn!
It just takes their faction ability with some luck to get a 6 or pool of, a warlord trait and 2 stratagems to have a chance of doing as many as a lightning claw lord, oh heavens how poorly done to chaos is.
Yea I agree. I play Eldar and I would gladly give up the bow pistol (which I have used and it is better on paper then in game) for an ability to take ANY close combat weapon and add 1 mortal wound for every wound roll keeping the underlying damage, even if it required an old school leadership test. I use scroprions as well, which do a mortal on a 6 to wound and it adds up quick. Personally, I would bet this relic gets nerfed 6-8 months from now with a mortal wound cap.
The fact is the Slannesh one looks under powered to me as it just adds more attacks.
Extra attacks for TWO weapons though. If you wanted to be really extra and equip a Lord with two Thunder Hammers, this would be extra LOLZ
EightFoldPath wrote: Wow, I bet such a powerful relic requires a leadership test from the farseer to use each turn!
It just takes their faction ability with some luck to get a 6 or pool of, a warlord trait and 2 stratagems to have a chance of doing as many as a lightning claw lord, oh heavens how poorly done to chaos is.
Yea I agree. I play Eldar and I would gladly give up the bow pistol (which I have used and it is better on paper then in game) for an ability to take ANY close combat weapon and add 1 mortal wound for every wound roll keeping the underlying damage, even if it required an old school leadership test. I use scroprions as well, which do a mortal on a 6 to wound and it adds up quick. Personally, I would bet this relic gets nerfed 6-8 months from now with a mortal wound cap.
The fact is the Slannesh one looks under powered to me as it just adds more attacks.
Extra attacks for TWO weapons though. If you wanted to be really extra and equip a Lord with two Thunder Hammers, this would be extra LOLZ
On average its +4 attacks that not bad on an EC Daemon Prince with two Malefic Talons, not taking into account warlord traits. While we don't know anything other than the DP can still take wings, the new models needs to sell so he'll probably have a boosted stat line as well.
EightFoldPath wrote: Wow, I bet such a powerful relic requires a leadership test from the farseer to use each turn!
It just takes their faction ability with some luck to get a 6 or pool of, a warlord trait and 2 stratagems to have a chance of doing as many as a lightning claw lord, oh heavens how poorly done to chaos is.
Yea I agree. I play Eldar and I would gladly give up the bow pistol (which I have used and it is better on paper then in game) for an ability to take ANY close combat weapon and add 1 mortal wound for every wound roll keeping the underlying damage, even if it required an old school leadership test. I use scroprions as well, which do a mortal on a 6 to wound and it adds up quick. Personally, I would bet this relic gets nerfed 6-8 months from now with a mortal wound cap.
The fact is the Slannesh one looks under powered to me as it just adds more attacks.
Extra attacks for TWO weapons though. If you wanted to be really extra and equip a Lord with two Thunder Hammers, this would be extra LOLZ
On average its +4 attacks that not bad on an EC Daemon Prince with two Malefic Talons, not taking into account warlord traits. While we don't know anything other than the DP can still take wings, the new models needs to sell so he'll probably have a boosted stat line as well.
Actually, forget the EC Prince. Think about the EC Lord with two Hammers instead.
The really annoying thing is: they actually did put Dreadclaws in the Dedicated Transports slot in the first CA of 9th edition (2020?). But then the Compendium comes out aaaannndd......it's back in FA again, with deployment rules that didn't work correctly. They've since fixed the latter problem, but not the former. And they don't appear to be in any kind of a rush to get it done.
Well it getting good rules is dependant on getting plastic model. As long as it's fw kit good rules would be result of gw designer's incompetence.
EightFoldPath wrote: Wow, I bet such a powerful relic requires a leadership test from the farseer to use each turn!
It just takes their faction ability with some luck to get a 6 or pool of, a warlord trait and 2 stratagems to have a chance of doing as many as a lightning claw lord, oh heavens how poorly done to chaos is.
I was raising an eyebrow too, don't see how stacking 4-odd buffs is analogous. Totally apples to oranges.
Yeah, that's not comparing one relic option to another, that's comparing HQ choices with all the buffs you can stack on top of them.
The relic in question also does not do any extra damage outside of the mortal wounds; the attack sequence ends.
It's also reliant on a custom craftworld trait that is getting nerfed into oblivion in the next dataslate.
I know Chaos players like to whine but Ulloca looks really powerful. It's main drawback will probably be needing to be on a Undivided model as iirc we don't know what that mark does yet, compared with the other 4.
Regardless if we take the DGDP as a barometer, CSMDP's will be getting 6 attacks base. Pop that relic on a Sword and that's 6 S8 ap3 D3 attacks where every successful wound is a MW in addition. Certain set-ups like Word Bearers (rr hits and additional MW's in their superdoctrine on 6's to wound) or Night Lords (+1 to wound in superdoc) will blend stuff.
xeen wrote: Yea I agree. I play Eldar and I would gladly give up the bow pistol (which I have used and it is better on paper then in game) for an ability to take ANY close combat weapon and add 1 mortal wound for every wound roll keeping the underlying damage, even if it required an old school leadership test. I use scroprions as well, which do a mortal on a 6 to wound and it adds up quick. Personally, I would bet this relic gets nerfed 6-8 months from now with a mortal wound cap.
The fact is the Slannesh one looks under powered to me as it just adds more attacks.
They would have to nerf the far superior Tyranid relic first.
The Slaanesh one looks "ok". It sounds like you have to take two leadership tests, one for each weapon. It boils down to +4 attacks. You can currently take a double powerfist loadout on a Lord/Terminator Lord or a double thunder hammer/chainfist depending on armour type. You will probably want to take one of each to vary your damage profile. A +4 attack power fist seems good, but when I try to find a comparable relic, they usually have + 2/3 attacks and other improvements, e.g. Triptych Whip is +3 attacks, +1 damage, +2 to wound. Still +2 attacks on a DP sword, +2 attacks on a DP talon does sound "ok".
It does just feel that GW (and some commenters) are missing the point that if you give a relic a downside, you should be looking at comparable relics and making sure your upside is better. This is often an issue with all the Chaos factions, they remember to do the downside/upside thing, but then for other factions seem to forget the downside part. Although I will allow Orks (and 9th ed Necrons) to be honourary members of the Chaos super faction for this, as they also seem to get a good old whacking with the downside stick for their rules.
For maximum power I think these relics if they are all weapon neutral will nearly always go on a Daemon Prince (Sword and Talon equals two weapons) or Lord Discordant (new profile probably still has main weapon and mechatendrils) rather than a Chaos Lord/Terminator Lord/Master of Executions, unless those two datasheets are excluded from using them.
xeen wrote: Yea I agree. I play Eldar and I would gladly give up the bow pistol (which I have used and it is better on paper then in game) for an ability to take ANY close combat weapon and add 1 mortal wound for every wound roll keeping the underlying damage, even if it required an old school leadership test. I use scroprions as well, which do a mortal on a 6 to wound and it adds up quick. Personally, I would bet this relic gets nerfed 6-8 months from now with a mortal wound cap.
The fact is the Slannesh one looks under powered to me as it just adds more attacks.
They would have to nerf the far superior Tyranid relic first.
The Slaanesh one looks "ok". It sounds like you have to take two leadership tests, one for each weapon. It boils down to +4 attacks. You can currently take a double powerfist loadout on a Lord/Terminator Lord or a double thunder hammer/chainfist depending on armour type. You will probably want to take one of each to vary your damage profile. A +4 attack power fist seems good, but when I try to find a comparable relic, they usually have + 2/3 attacks and other improvements, e.g. Triptych Whip is +3 attacks, +1 damage, +2 to wound. Still +2 attacks on a DP sword, +2 attacks on a DP talon does sound "ok".
It does just feel that GW (and some commenters) are missing the point that if you give a relic a downside, you should be looking at comparable relics and making sure your upside is better. This is often an issue with all the Chaos factions, they remember to do the downside/upside thing, but then for other factions seem to forget the downside part. Although I will allow Orks (and 9th ed Necrons) to be honourary members of the Chaos super faction for this, as they also seem to get a good old whacking with the downside stick for their rules.
For maximum power I think these relics if they are all weapon neutral will nearly always go on a Daemon Prince (Sword and Talon equals two weapons) or Lord Discordant (new profile probably still has main weapon and mechatendrils) rather than a Chaos Lord/Terminator Lord/Master of Executions, unless those two datasheets are excluded from using them.
Well since you can't take e.g. a relic bonesword on any Chaos models, nor can you take a daemon weapon on a hive tyrant the entire comparison is moot. Relics are more a topic of internal balance and on this occasion they seem to have done well. You can have a tame relic push an already deadly profile over the top, you can also have a killer relic that can only be given to stuff with a dire profile. You can't ignore the list of potential wielders for a factions relics.
The really annoying thing is: they actually did put Dreadclaws in the Dedicated Transports slot in the first CA of 9th edition (2020?). But then the Compendium comes out aaaannndd......it's back in FA again, with deployment rules that didn't work correctly. They've since fixed the latter problem, but not the former. And they don't appear to be in any kind of a rush to get it done.
Well it getting good rules is dependant on getting plastic model. As long as it's fw kit good rules would be result of gw designer's incompetence.
Eh, I don't think that expecting them to put Dreadclaws in the right FOC slot is a big "ask".
That's also an interesting take in a CSM thread, as the faction has leaned fairly hard on our fw units since 7th edition, mostly because they have better rules than their plastic equivalents. A Sicaran is better than any of our plastic tanks, fw dreads are better than Hellbrutes, and an Achilles makes a standard Land Raider look like an absolute punk. But, you do you.
ClockworkZion wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote: Ah, ok. Well, thanks for keeping on top of this for everyone Zion.
I mean it affects me too so of course I'm paying attention!
Yes, I know. But you don't have to bring any information you get here for the rest of us. And I thank you for doing so.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Ah, ok. Well, thanks for keeping on top of this for everyone Zion.
I mean it affects me too so of course I'm paying attention!
Yes, I know. But you don't have to bring any information you get here for the rest of us. And I thank you for doing so.
This! All the more so, because you, Clockwork, were doing the work twice over (until B&C shut down for their migration).
Bharring wrote: At worst, you'll spend all your time and money on a hobby you don't enjoy, hate everything you're doing, and drive no value out of what should be the best times of your life.
They would have to nerf the far superior Tyranid relic first.
The Slaanesh one looks "ok". It sounds like you have to take two leadership tests, one for each weapon. It boils down to +4 attacks. You can currently take a double powerfist loadout on a Lord/Terminator Lord or a double thunder hammer/chainfist depending on armour type. You will probably want to take one of each to vary your damage profile. A +4 attack power fist seems good, but when I try to find a comparable relic, they usually have + 2/3 attacks and other improvements, e.g. Triptych Whip is +3 attacks, +1 damage, +2 to wound. Still +2 attacks on a DP sword, +2 attacks on a DP talon does sound "ok".
It does just feel that GW (and some commenters) are missing the point that if you give a relic a downside, you should be looking at comparable relics and making sure your upside is better. This is often an issue with all the Chaos factions, they remember to do the downside/upside thing, but then for other factions seem to forget the downside part. Although I will allow Orks (and 9th ed Necrons) to be honourary members of the Chaos super faction for this, as they also seem to get a good old whacking with the downside stick for their rules.
For maximum power I think these relics if they are all weapon neutral will nearly always go on a Daemon Prince (Sword and Talon equals two weapons) or Lord Discordant (new profile probably still has main weapon and mechatendrils) rather than a Chaos Lord/Terminator Lord/Master of Executions, unless those two datasheets are excluded from using them.
All this could be moot anyway as daemon weapons might and could be limited to infantry characters anyway. Orkz have relics restricted in the same way in that it has to be specified for a vehicle to have one, same thing with Ironhand vehicles. I don't expect a Disco Lord to be allowed a daemonweapon and I'm not really feeling daemon prince's having them either, they've never had them in the past?
How many kans can a killa kan kill if a killa kan can kill kans?
They would have to nerf the far superior Tyranid relic first.
The Slaanesh one looks "ok". It sounds like you have to take two leadership tests, one for each weapon. It boils down to +4 attacks. You can currently take a double powerfist loadout on a Lord/Terminator Lord or a double thunder hammer/chainfist depending on armour type. You will probably want to take one of each to vary your damage profile. A +4 attack power fist seems good, but when I try to find a comparable relic, they usually have + 2/3 attacks and other improvements, e.g. Triptych Whip is +3 attacks, +1 damage, +2 to wound. Still +2 attacks on a DP sword, +2 attacks on a DP talon does sound "ok".
It does just feel that GW (and some commenters) are missing the point that if you give a relic a downside, you should be looking at comparable relics and making sure your upside is better. This is often an issue with all the Chaos factions, they remember to do the downside/upside thing, but then for other factions seem to forget the downside part. Although I will allow Orks (and 9th ed Necrons) to be honourary members of the Chaos super faction for this, as they also seem to get a good old whacking with the downside stick for their rules.
For maximum power I think these relics if they are all weapon neutral will nearly always go on a Daemon Prince (Sword and Talon equals two weapons) or Lord Discordant (new profile probably still has main weapon and mechatendrils) rather than a Chaos Lord/Terminator Lord/Master of Executions, unless those two datasheets are excluded from using them.
All this could be moot anyway as daemon weapons might and could be limited to infantry characters anyway. Orkz have relics restricted in the same way in that it has to be specified for a vehicle to have one, same thing with Ironhand vehicles. I don't expect a Disco Lord to be allowed a daemonweapon and I'm not really feeling daemon prince's having them either, they've never had them in the past?
Daemon Princes have had the ability to take Daemon Weapons in the past. I started in 7th, and ran (for a time) a Black Mace Prince.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
Pretty sure I saw plenty of pairs of Daemon Prince legs swinging the berserker glaive before the 4th ed codex blanderized Chaos beyond recognition. There's nothing to stop a daemon from having a daemon weapon other than the whims of GW's rules writers.
Nehekhara lives! Sort of!
Why is the rum always gone?
They would have to nerf the far superior Tyranid relic first.
The Slaanesh one looks "ok". It sounds like you have to take two leadership tests, one for each weapon. It boils down to +4 attacks. You can currently take a double powerfist loadout on a Lord/Terminator Lord or a double thunder hammer/chainfist depending on armour type. You will probably want to take one of each to vary your damage profile. A +4 attack power fist seems good, but when I try to find a comparable relic, they usually have + 2/3 attacks and other improvements, e.g. Triptych Whip is +3 attacks, +1 damage, +2 to wound. Still +2 attacks on a DP sword, +2 attacks on a DP talon does sound "ok".
It does just feel that GW (and some commenters) are missing the point that if you give a relic a downside, you should be looking at comparable relics and making sure your upside is better. This is often an issue with all the Chaos factions, they remember to do the downside/upside thing, but then for other factions seem to forget the downside part. Although I will allow Orks (and 9th ed Necrons) to be honourary members of the Chaos super faction for this, as they also seem to get a good old whacking with the downside stick for their rules.
For maximum power I think these relics if they are all weapon neutral will nearly always go on a Daemon Prince (Sword and Talon equals two weapons) or Lord Discordant (new profile probably still has main weapon and mechatendrils) rather than a Chaos Lord/Terminator Lord/Master of Executions, unless those two datasheets are excluded from using them.
All this could be moot anyway as daemon weapons might and could be limited to infantry characters anyway. Orkz have relics restricted in the same way in that it has to be specified for a vehicle to have one, same thing with Ironhand vehicles. I don't expect a Disco Lord to be allowed a daemonweapon and I'm not really feeling daemon prince's having them either, they've never had them in the past?
Daemon weapons are Character Keyoworded, so the Lord Discordant and Daemon Prince can both "technically" take one. The issue in the current codex is you have the apropriate weapon to swap for it, and the Disco Lord doesn't. So, we'll have to see what the do.
They would have to nerf the far superior Tyranid relic first.
The Slaanesh one looks "ok". It sounds like you have to take two leadership tests, one for each weapon. It boils down to +4 attacks. You can currently take a double powerfist loadout on a Lord/Terminator Lord or a double thunder hammer/chainfist depending on armour type. You will probably want to take one of each to vary your damage profile. A +4 attack power fist seems good, but when I try to find a comparable relic, they usually have + 2/3 attacks and other improvements, e.g. Triptych Whip is +3 attacks, +1 damage, +2 to wound. Still +2 attacks on a DP sword, +2 attacks on a DP talon does sound "ok".
It does just feel that GW (and some commenters) are missing the point that if you give a relic a downside, you should be looking at comparable relics and making sure your upside is better. This is often an issue with all the Chaos factions, they remember to do the downside/upside thing, but then for other factions seem to forget the downside part. Although I will allow Orks (and 9th ed Necrons) to be honourary members of the Chaos super faction for this, as they also seem to get a good old whacking with the downside stick for their rules.
For maximum power I think these relics if they are all weapon neutral will nearly always go on a Daemon Prince (Sword and Talon equals two weapons) or Lord Discordant (new profile probably still has main weapon and mechatendrils) rather than a Chaos Lord/Terminator Lord/Master of Executions, unless those two datasheets are excluded from using them.
All this could be moot anyway as daemon weapons might and could be limited to infantry characters anyway. Orkz have relics restricted in the same way in that it has to be specified for a vehicle to have one, same thing with Ironhand vehicles. I don't expect a Disco Lord to be allowed a daemonweapon and I'm not really feeling daemon prince's having them either, they've never had them in the past?
Daemon weapons are Character Keyoworded, so the Lord Discordant and Daemon Prince can both "technically" take one. The issue in the current codex is you have the apropriate weapon to swap for it, and the Disco Lord doesn't. So, we'll have to see what the do.
According to the article, and the two Daemon Weapons we've seen, they can be slapped on to just about any melee weapon, including mechandrites, as long as they aren't a named relic already. So it sounds like the Disco Lord's chainglaive should be good, unless they make Disco Lords a unique character, and do the same thing with his chainglaive.
