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So what happens to the team behind a codex if it’s universally despised? Do they get in trouble or does GW just ignore the feedback and move on?

 GaroRobe wrote:
So what happens to the team behind a codex if it’s universally despised? Do they get in trouble or does GW just ignore the feedback and move on?

From a lot of the reviews it's not universal though. I'm annoyed by some of the arbritary restrictions and removals but it seems a decent book otherwise imo.

Snugiraffe wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
The Night Lords trait was actually nerfed from its playtest version. No more +1 to advance and charge. We did get the +1 to wound in melee though.....against L5, not L6. So much for it working on loyalists.

Though that does mean that Raptors and – crucially – the new Possessed will get the +1 to wound against a lot of units, seeing as they bring a native -1 Ld on top of the trait. Also, do we know if the trait stacks? Its range has increased to 9", so it might not be that difficult to bring Ld8 units down to 5.
Possessed needing 4+ to wound against anything that's T6 to T9 sounds OK. Plus you can warp-mark their target for another +1 (do bonuses to wound rolls stack? they do, right?).

Now, off to ebay to buy some more of those Greater Possessed to fill in the gap until GW actually starts selling the new ones, lol.

Good luck. The prices for everything in the start collecting have tripled since it’s no longer sold

There's a thing in Germany called ebay Kleinanzeigen (=classified ads) – just got two Greater Possessed for €15 (that's postage included). They've even been assembled and primed already

Pretty sure prices will rise in the not-too-distant, but for the most part people selling there are either not aware of what they could get or simply don't care. This guy didn't care, in fact he'd only just cut the asking price because they weren't shifting.

Voss wrote:Skipped to the 'final thoughts' section of the Tabletop Tactics video. Not what I expected, at all.

But then the standard they seem to be using for 'great book' is 'not broken' (ie Tyranids, Custodes, Harlequins), rather than 'interesting' or 'fluffy.'

It certainly seems like that. I watched the whole video, and they only had one really negative bit. It was a mini-rant on the loss of Jump Packs for characters, with an emphasis on how much it Night Lords players. So, at least they get that.

Dudeface wrote:

 GaroRobe wrote:
So what happens to the team behind a codex if it’s universally despised? Do they get in trouble or does GW just ignore the feedback and move on?

From a lot of the reviews it's not universal though. I'm annoyed by some of the arbritary restrictions and removals but it seems a decent book otherwise imo.

I agree it seems like a "decent" codex, if you can ignore those restrictions and removals. But how much you can do that depends on how much they affect your army. And they're an absolute gut punch to mine. The fact that the codex seems otherwise well done and put together just makes them hit all the harder. I really want to like this book, but those removals are like the proverbial bad apples spoiling the whole bunch for me.

Snugiraffe wrote:
There's a thing in Germany called ebay Kleinanzeigen (=classified ads) – just got two Greater Possessed for €15 (that's postage included). They've even been assembled and primed already

Pretty sure prices will rise in the not-too-distant, but for the most part people selling there are either not aware of what they could get or simply don't care. This guy didn't care, in fact he'd only just cut the asking price because they weren't shifting.

That’s good

Before the reveal of the combat patrol, the master of possession was ~$12 and has since jumped up to $40

Have we seen the Havoc sheet yet? They did they lose move and fire?

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
It certainly seems like that. I watched the whole video, and they only had one really negative bit. It was a mini-rant on the loss of Jump Packs for characters, with an emphasis on how much it Night Lords players. So, at least they get that.

It would appear that some of the new restrictions passed them by, as in their first Chaos batrep, they have a 10-man CSM squad with 2 Plasma Guns.

So there's every chance they didn't notice the lack of Power Fists in Chosen units, or Lightning Claws in Raptor units, and so on.

Still can't believe that Possessed can't be marked.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Remember, if you don't like it, vote with your wallet and don't buy it. Same with any models whose rules you are disappointed with. Couple that with an email and/or letter detailing specifically what you are unhappy with. One has to go with the other. If you don't buy but don't say anything, GW won't know specifically what's annoying people and may implement changes that do nothing or which might even make things worse. If you write to them but still buy the product, your complaints are toothless and they will know that they can ignore you without suffering any consequences.

GW knows that the new Chaos codex sucks. No letters of complaint are needed to remind them. However GW also knows that people will STILL buy it because otherwise they won´t be able to attend tournaments in the future.

Meanwhile true aficionados of power armour migrate to 30K.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Have we seen the Havoc sheet yet? They did they lose move and fire?

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
It certainly seems like that. I watched the whole video, and they only had one really negative bit. It was a mini-rant on the loss of Jump Packs for characters, with an emphasis on how much it Night Lords players. So, at least they get that.

It would appear that some of the new restrictions passed them by, as in their first Chaos batrep, they have a 10-man CSM squad with 2 Plasma Guns.

So there's every chance they didn't notice the lack of Power Fists in Chosen units, or Lightning Claws in Raptor units, and so on.

Still can't believe that Possessed can't be marked.

Yeah, Havocs still have their move and shoot ability. And are actually cheaper with 2W. Probably because they lost the ability to double shoot with Cacaphony.

It's entirely possible that they've missed some stuff. I've seen them do it before in their batreps. And as others have mentioned, there's a lot of conflicting information in all of the various reviews.

And the no Marks for Daemonkin seems to be a purely mechanical thing. Same as CORE. Hooray for Tournament Edition. /s

I'm still parsing this book through my brain but I fired off an email for the obvious stuff so if anyone wants to copy and paste it and send it in themselves to 40kfaq@gwplc.com as well here it is for your copy and pasting needs:

Dear Design Team,

After reviewing the previews of the Chaos Marine Codex I have a couple of questions about the new book even though it isn't out yet.

Q: The Chaos Lord with jump pack was put on range rotation but completely removed as an option from the book. Was this a mistake? Additionally people really like using Harkon to make their own custom Chaos Lords with Jump packs, so even if the option was removed intentionally could we please have it back for armies who want to build Raptor heavy forces such as the Night Lords? If not, could we at least get a relic option to be able to take a Jump Pack for Chaos Lords?

Q: Could we get a designer's note for the change to the wargear restrictions available? This new book has invalidated a lot of existing armies and it has left people feeling frustrated so some insight into why certain things were done would go a long way into helping ease that frustration.

Q: In this new book Daemonkin units can't take Marks of Chaos unless you take them in World Eaters or Emperor's Children armies. Is this a mistake?

Cheers,

[NAME HERE]

Strg Alt wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Remember, if you don't like it, vote with your wallet and don't buy it. Same with any models whose rules you are disappointed with. Couple that with an email and/or letter detailing specifically what you are unhappy with. One has to go with the other. If you don't buy but don't say anything, GW won't know specifically what's annoying people and may implement changes that do nothing or which might even make things worse. If you write to them but still buy the product, your complaints are toothless and they will know that they can ignore you without suffering any consequences.

GW knows that the new Chaos codex sucks. No letters of complaint are needed to remind them. However GW also knows that people will STILL buy it because otherwise they won´t be able to attend tournaments in the future.

Meanwhile true aficionados of power armour migrate to 30K.

It doesn't hurt to make our voices known, though. They may know that there are issues, but there are things in the codex that are problems that they might not recognize as problems until they are pointed out. And while there are definitely people who will be buying the codex, I've seen a fair few number of people who either won't be or who might wait for at least a couple of months to see if there are any changes. Beyond the problems with gear restrictions and the removal of the jump lord, there are people out there who put a great deal of time and energy into Renegade armies who now have no rules to use them. Crimson Slaughter, Flawless Host, Scourged and Purge players are not happy (it looks like the Brazen Beasts might be in the World Eaters codex). I've seen two posts about people who have thousands of points of Purge and who are very dismayed. At least several of them have said that they won't be buying the codex, or at least not until Renegade rules are released. I did not see this kind of disappointment surrounding the Death Guard codex. I have a feeling that the sales for the CSM codex will be lower than GW expects.

And yes, Heresy is definitely where I will be pivoting to for now, at least until the CSM book is fixed. I will be buying one box of the new Possessed, but to be used as Gal Vorbak. I was going to buy more of them, some Torments, mutants, Plague Marines and possibly the Noise Marines blister pack. But with the new rules, all of those purchases are on hold for the moment. GW is losing a lot more money from me than just the price of the codex.

Do we have the full text of Abbadon's "Agent of Chaos" rule?

 ArcaneHorror wrote:

Strg Alt wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Remember, if you don't like it, vote with your wallet and don't buy it. Same with any models whose rules you are disappointed with. Couple that with an email and/or letter detailing specifically what you are unhappy with. One has to go with the other. If you don't buy but don't say anything, GW won't know specifically what's annoying people and may implement changes that do nothing or which might even make things worse. If you write to them but still buy the product, your complaints are toothless and they will know that they can ignore you without suffering any consequences.

GW knows that the new Chaos codex sucks. No letters of complaint are needed to remind them. However GW also knows that people will STILL buy it because otherwise they won´t be able to attend tournaments in the future.

Meanwhile true aficionados of power armour migrate to 30K.

It doesn't hurt to make our voices known, though. They may know that there are issues, but there are things in the codex that are problems that they might not recognize as problems until they are pointed out. And while there are definitely people who will be buying the codex, I've seen a fair few number of people who either won't be or who might wait for at least a couple of months to see if there are any changes. Beyond the problems with gear restrictions and the removal of the jump lord, there are people out there who put a great deal of time and energy into Renegade armies who now have no rules to use them. Crimson Slaughter, Flawless Host, Scourged and Purge players are not happy (it looks like the Brazen Beasts might be in the World Eaters codex). I've seen two posts about people who have thousands of points of Purge and who are very dismayed. At least several of them have said that they won't be buying the codex, or at least not until Renegade rules are released. I did not see this kind of disappointment surrounding the Death Guard codex. I have a feeling that the sales for the CSM codex will be lower than GW expects.

And yes, Heresy is definitely where I will be pivoting to for now, at least until the CSM book is fixed. I will be buying one box of the new Possessed, but to be used as Gal Vorbak. I was going to buy more of them, some Torments, mutants, Plague Marines and possibly the Noise Marines blister pack. But with the new rules, all of those purchases are on hold for the moment. GW is losing a lot more money from me than just the price of the codex.

If people would have a shred of integrity and self-respect left, they would have turned their back on the modern Chaos faction a long time ago and be playing a vintage codex such as 3.5. Less fuss and more fun.

I am aware of all the little shenanigans GW pulls off. When the Death Guard codex dropped for the first time I was intrigued because I have a Nurgle themed CSM force. Only a few minutes later I found out that my vintage CSM terminators (RT era with power fists) had an illegal loadout. So I put the book back into the shelf and left the store in dismay.
Then a couple of months later when the new Havoc box dropped I was interested again because of miniguns. How cool would a unit be with four minguns? Right? Wrong! The box came along with only one minigun while other heavy weapons were more abundant in the box. Unsurprsingly I put the box back into the shelf.

The Horus heresy release is on the other hand a breath of fresh air. Yes, the transfers, special weapons and dice are expensive but the rest is a really good deal. That´s how you win back unsatisfied customers. Compared to that 40K looks like rotten roadkill that even desperate hillbillies won´t touch.

Most will buy it and not care overly much. Sucks for all the unique war bands, at the end of the day they can still be represented by the rules inthe book. Finally, a condensing of upgrades and units is drastically needed. It should have been done in a better cleaner version like an edition change but lots of races In 40k are becoming far to large with far to many options. This is of putting for new players. When you build a model you want to slap on what looks cool withought having to worry about if it's good or not.
Tldr: condensing should come with an edition. Change, but it still needs to happen. Especially for loyalist. They do need to release a jump pack lord but it needs to be diffrent from a lord plus 1. Footslogers should be stronger and harder.

TBF the special box is "value" insofar as that you can staple them on literally any MK VI model without issue and certainly have enough special weapons for whole armies... unless you go full on special weapons squads for some reason. Which you shouldn't since you need something to score.

Voss wrote:


Loss of super-doctrines is IMO good for less rules bloat, but fething just _mean_ to apply to this codex as the first victim.

Thousand Sons would like a word. Actually, Thousand Sons may not be the first, they were just the first that came to mind. Point is that not every army has a super-doctrine concept. For TSons the subfaction bonus is a warlord trait, relic, and psychic power. Thus, CSM not having superdoctrines is not automatically indicative of a forthcoming design trend.

Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

No custom faction building... is that something going away moving forward or they just didn't put in the work to balance it.

Without the codex in my hand to read it for myself and reflect upon it, I can't disagree with your overall assessment. However, I think in the case of no build-a-warband rules, it makes a sort of twisted sense as so much is tied to individual legions. More so than many previous codices, possibly.

Again, TSons would like a word, no build-a-warband rules there either. Orks also come to mind as not having build-a-warband features. Actually, IIRC no faction released before Genestealer Cults (?) had those types of rules.

 whembly wrote:
Do we have the full text of Abbadon's "Agent of Chaos" rule?

A paraphrase from the relevant Warmaster ability rule: if your army is battleforged, he must be WL. If multiple models in your army have this rule, one must be the WL. If this model is your WL, he gets the AOC keyword.

The ability doesn’t define the keyword there, but it’s probably exactly the same as the Agent of the Imperium keyword. An AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM unit included in a Patrol, Battalion or Brigade Detachment in this manner is ignored for any rules that state all units from that Detachment must have at least one Faction keyword in common (e.g. in a matched play game) and when determining your Army Faction.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Voss wrote:


Loss of super-doctrines is IMO good for less rules bloat, but fething just _mean_ to apply to this codex as the first victim.

Thousand Sons would like a word. Actually, Thousand Sons may not be the first, they were just the first that came to mind. Point is that not every army has a super-doctrine concept. For TSons the subfaction bonus is a warlord trait, relic, and psychic power. Thus, CSM not having superdoctrines is not automatically indicative of a forthcoming design trend.

Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

No custom faction building... is that something going away moving forward or they just didn't put in the work to balance it.

Without the codex in my hand to read it for myself and reflect upon it, I can't disagree with your overall assessment. However, I think in the case of no build-a-warband rules, it makes a sort of twisted sense as so much is tied to individual legions. More so than many previous codices, possibly.

Again, TSons would like a word, no build-a-warband rules there either. Orks also come to mind as not having build-a-warband features. Actually, IIRC no faction released before Genestealer Cults (?) had those types of rules.

The books without are a shorter list than those with, the first 2 of the edition had build-a-subfaction built in, tau, eldar do but they're after gsc. I seem to think admech, sisters and DE have them as well?

chaos0xomega wrote:
Thousand Sons would like a word.

Sure. Here's two:

Cabbalistic Rituals.

 MinMax wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Thousand Sons would like a word.

Sure. Here's two:

Cabbalistic Rituals.

No, that's just our "pure army bonus", like Combat Doctrines.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Again, TSons would like a word, no build-a-warband rules there either. Orks also come to mind as not having build-a-warband features. Actually, IIRC no faction released before Genestealer Cults (?) had those types of rules.

Space Marines, Necrons, Drukhari, Sisters, Admech, and I'm pretty sure Death Guard got them. Not sure about Grey Knights, Orks or Custodes. But literally the first two armies to be released for 9th had custom subfaction rules.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Voss wrote:


Loss of super-doctrines is IMO good for less rules bloat, but fething just _mean_ to apply to this codex as the first victim.

Thousand Sons would like a word. Actually, Thousand Sons may not be the first, they were just the first that came to mind. Point is that not every army has a super-doctrine concept. For TSons the subfaction bonus is a warlord trait, relic, and psychic power. Thus, CSM not having superdoctrines is not automatically indicative of a forthcoming design trend.

The Cabal point system is the Super Doctrine though, no?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gert wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Again, TSons would like a word, no build-a-warband rules there either. Orks also come to mind as not having build-a-warband features. Actually, IIRC no faction released before Genestealer Cults (?) had those types of rules.

Space Marines, Necrons, Drukhari, Sisters, Admech, and I'm pretty sure Death Guard got them. Not sure about Grey Knights, Orks or Custodes. But literally the first two armies to be released for 9th had custom subfaction rules.

Death Guard didn't get them, they got Companies like Thousand Sons got Cults.

 GaroRobe wrote:
So what happens to the team behind a codex if it’s universally despised? Do they get in trouble or does GW just ignore the feedback and move on?

Unfortunately, its a moot point. Its being warmly or broadly accepted by the influencer outposts and their followers. Any complaints are being characterized as primarily about the wargear removal (or other 'nitpicking') which, with a few exceptions like the lord jump pack, is being brushed off or even praised.

I think the only fly in GW's ointment here is their new cultists and cultist command squads aren't going to sell well because they're now a post-codex release and they aren't very good, survivable and they get pretty indifferent rules and support.
People who wanted to build cultist heavy armies are going to find out before release that they can't do that, and that the traitor guard they may have already bought effectively don't exist.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Death Guard didn't get them, they got Companies like Thousand Sons got Cults.

My thanks. So we have 11 armies with custom subfaction rules and 6 without. Within those 6 we have:
- Grey Knights which have set Brotherhoods so a custom Brotherhood isn't really on the table.
- Death Guard which could be argued follow a fairly rigid Legion structure but also not really.
- Tsons which again could be argued to following set Cults within the Legion but also not really.
- Orks, somehow. This one I have no rationale for.
- Chaos Space Marines, again how. Utterly ridiculous especially since the Renegade Chapters aren't in the Codex but are in a supplement that can't be bought.
- Custodes where I could maybe understand a justification from the viewpoint of there aren't enough to manage more than the official Hosts.
It's weighted in favour of armies that do have custom subfaction rules as Guard did get some in PA so it would be a shock to see those go and then I don't even know if Daemons have subfactions being locked into the 4 Gods and all.
*Edit as I have been corrected on Knights*

CK and IK have generic subfactions, actually.

What the gak GW, no chaos models up for pre order next week.

 Strg Alt wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:

Strg Alt wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Remember, if you don't like it, vote with your wallet and don't buy it. Same with any models whose rules you are disappointed with. Couple that with an email and/or letter detailing specifically what you are unhappy with. One has to go with the other. If you don't buy but don't say anything, GW won't know specifically what's annoying people and may implement changes that do nothing or which might even make things worse. If you write to them but still buy the product, your complaints are toothless and they will know that they can ignore you without suffering any consequences.

GW knows that the new Chaos codex sucks. No letters of complaint are needed to remind them. However GW also knows that people will STILL buy it because otherwise they won´t be able to attend tournaments in the future.

Meanwhile true aficionados of power armour migrate to 30K.

It doesn't hurt to make our voices known, though. They may know that there are issues, but there are things in the codex that are problems that they might not recognize as problems until they are pointed out. And while there are definitely people who will be buying the codex, I've seen a fair few number of people who either won't be or who might wait for at least a couple of months to see if there are any changes. Beyond the problems with gear restrictions and the removal of the jump lord, there are people out there who put a great deal of time and energy into Renegade armies who now have no rules to use them. Crimson Slaughter, Flawless Host, Scourged and Purge players are not happy (it looks like the Brazen Beasts might be in the World Eaters codex). I've seen two posts about people who have thousands of points of Purge and who are very dismayed. At least several of them have said that they won't be buying the codex, or at least not until Renegade rules are released. I did not see this kind of disappointment surrounding the Death Guard codex. I have a feeling that the sales for the CSM codex will be lower than GW expects.

And yes, Heresy is definitely where I will be pivoting to for now, at least until the CSM book is fixed. I will be buying one box of the new Possessed, but to be used as Gal Vorbak. I was going to buy more of them, some Torments, mutants, Plague Marines and possibly the Noise Marines blister pack. But with the new rules, all of those purchases are on hold for the moment. GW is losing a lot more money from me than just the price of the codex.

If people would have a shred of integrity and self-respect left, they would have turned their back on the modern Chaos faction a long time ago and be playing a vintage codex such as 3.5. Less fuss and more fun.

I am aware of all the little shenanigans GW pulls off. When the Death Guard codex dropped for the first time I was intrigued because I have a Nurgle themed CSM force. Only a few minutes later I found out that my vintage CSM terminators (RT era with power fists) had an illegal loadout. So I put the book back into the shelf and left the store in dismay.
Then a couple of months later when the new Havoc box dropped I was interested again because of miniguns. How cool would a unit be with four minguns? Right? Wrong! The box came along with only one minigun while other heavy weapons were more abundant in the box. Unsurprsingly I put the box back into the shelf.

The Horus heresy release is on the other hand a breath of fresh air. Yes, the transfers, special weapons and dice are expensive but the rest is a really good deal. That´s how you win back unsatisfied customers. Compared to that 40K looks like rotten roadkill that even desperate hillbillies won´t touch.

If it was up to me, I'd let all the armies get their old units back. A heavy weapons team would not be out of theme for the Death Guard. The Thousand Sons in particular have suffered from the loss of options, and they have a pretty small roster of units.

I'll definitely be posting up that letter on various social media sites. My own one about Possessed not being Core and the Cult Marines not having Legion traits is a bit long, so I'll be sending it both by email and snail mail so that it gets through and is not overwhelmed by the others.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

 whembly wrote:
Do we have the full text of Abbadon's "Agent of Chaos" rule?

A paraphrase from the relevant Warmaster ability rule: if your army is battleforged, he must be WL. If multiple models in your army have this rule, one must be the WL. If this model is your WL, he gets the AOC keyword.

The ability doesn’t define the keyword there, but it’s probably exactly the same as the Agent of the Imperium keyword. An AGENT OF THE IMPERIUM unit included in a Patrol, Battalion or Brigade Detachment in this manner is ignored for any rules that state all units from that Detachment must have at least one Faction keyword in common (e.g. in a matched play game) and when determining your Army Faction.

Thanks, so it's reasonable to assume that in a DG/TS list headed by Abby as the warlord, we do lose out DG/TS WLT/relic, but retain the detachment's specific DG/TS secondaries?

So other week without the new toys, and maybe 2 weeks more (because paints are 2 weeks preorder)

zamerion wrote:
So other week without the new toys, and maybe 2 weeks more (because paints are 2 weeks preorder)

I'm more displeased and empassioned about this than the option being cut/changed. Its fething stupid. They obviously only released the book due to the nephilim and points changes.