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Waaaghpower wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:


A.) Lower normal boyz' Toughness back to 4 and lower their cost by about 2 points? Let non-boyz keep their extra Toughness. Fluff excuse is that, narratively, boyz serve the role of being the faceless horde of mooks who don't get speaking lines and die in droves. Their lower toughness is the result of plot armor. Mechanically, you're making them more susceptible to S4 and S5 weapons (which tend to have enough shots to be efficient against T4 models with bad saves), and you're making them more killy for their cost.

So... 8th edition Ork Boyz, then?
I mean, by comparison, we'd have an extra point of AP on our Choppas, worse Mob Rule, worse charges, fewer attacks in hordes, worse Shootas, worse *shooting* (No 'Dakka Dakka Dakka' and no Tankbusta Bombs,) and fewer good stratagems.

Pretty much! But yeah, fair points. I was mostly going by Jidmah's response to your earlier question. Making boys cheaper (and justifying it by lowering their Toughness) would make their offense more cost-effective at the cost of their durability, which seemed in line with what he was saying earlier.

...we'd still have no reason to run anything other than MSU, and we'd still have no reason to take Shootas over Choppas.

Again, fair points. I'm definitely not against giving large squads some sort of leadership protection. Especially if you lower their toughness so that S4 and S5 weapons become more effective at removing boyz again. From the outside looking in, is the point of shootas not that you simply get to contribute offense from farther away? I get that choppa boyz math out to do more damage than shoota boyz, but the shoota boyz can do that damage from inside a trukk and/or on an objective while the choppa boyz have to go to the enemy to do most of their offense. I don't know orks well enough to comment on whether or not shoota boyz do too little damage to be worthwhile, but I think I see the intended trade-off on paper. Shootas are less killy but can contribute at a distance.

Outside of squatting on objectives, there are very few cases I can think of where it'd be better to have 33 Ork Boyz instead of 30 Kommandoes in 9th edition, whereas in every other edition of 40k I can imagine plenty of circumstances where the former is preferable to the latter. (The same applies to 27 Stormboyz, and of course, if you're playing Deathskullz, there are *no* cases where the boyz outperform the kommandoes.)

Very good points.

(Also, making Boyz cost 7pts means there's even fewer reasons to run Grots now, which is its own can of worms - Grots are flatly terrible, one of the worst units in the entire game at the moment, though fixing them should be its own thread.)

Yeah... That kind of goes back to GWs mistake in not raising the floor of model costs when they fiddled with all the points at the start of 9th. They ought to have found the weakest base model in the game (probably a grot) and given him the lowest points cost they could without making spam a problem (so you can't just statcheck your opponent by flooding the table). And then they should have acknowledged that cultists and guardsmen are better than grots and given them a higher points cost accordingly and then priced everything else in the game with those new grot, guardsman, and cultist points costs in mind. But instead they decided they liked pricing things at 5 points for the sake of easy math during list building (I guess).

I'd prefer sticking with 5ppm gretchins and 9ppm boyz, just making them worthy of those points costs.

To fix boyz I'd just want them to deal better with morale issues and to keep klan bonuses when a unit becomes trukk boyz (same for any other specialist mobs unit). Just that. Not more damage, not better armour, not a price cut.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Again, fair points. I'm definitely not against giving large squads some sort of leadership protection. Especially if you lower their toughness so that S4 and S5 weapons become more effective at removing boyz again. From the outside looking in, is the point of shootas not that you simply get to contribute offense from farther away? I get that choppa boyz math out to do more damage than shoota boyz, but the shoota boyz can do that damage from inside a trukk and/or on an objective while the choppa boyz have to go to the enemy to do most of their offense. I don't know orks well enough to comment on whether or not shoota boyz do too little damage to be worthwhile, but I think I see the intended trade-off on paper. Shootas are less killy but can contribute at a distance.

The point of shootas is *theoretically* that you get to contribute offense from further away, the issue is that the offense is... pretty pathetic.

In 8th edition, Shoota Boyz had two major advantages: Their weapons were assault weapons, and we had Dakka Dakka Dakka, which gave bonus shots on sixes.
Assault meant that we could stay highly mobile while still dealing full DPS, and Dakka Dakka Dakka triggered on half our attacks, or all our attacks that happened if we advanced. (Certain factions and abilities enhanced this further, like Evil Sunz getting to fire at full ballistic skill after advancing with assault weapons, and the 'More Dakka' strategem making it so that we always hit on a 5+ (ignoring any and all penalties) and giving bonus shots on 5+ as well. Also, Bad Moons had a better clan trait, one that probably didn't need nerfed - it was only OP when stacked with other strategems that got removed.)

So, comparing the shooting of Shoota Boyz in 8th vs 9th:
When moving normally at 9-18", 8th Boyz do 1/6th more damage.
When Advancing at any range, (which you want to do, a *lot*, because mobility is king) 8th Boyz do infinitely more damage.
When moving normally at less than 9", 9th Boyz do about 30% more damage... which is offset by the cost increase.

Additionally, the opportunity cost wasn't as bad - we gave up an extra attack, not an extra attack *and* -1 AP. Plus, thanks to large hordes getting extra attacks, it was less impactful for mobs - Shoota Boys only lost 33% of their melee output if they were in a large horde, not 50%.

So, across the board, shooting was heavily nerfed, mobility was nerfed, while ppm increased. The only time we're comparable to 8th edition DPS is when we're within charge range... at which point, we typically want to be charging. Shoota Boy shooting just isn't worth the points cost, let alone the opportunity cost.

Yeah... That kind of goes back to GWs mistake in not raising the floor of model costs when they fiddled with all the points at the start of 9th. They ought to have found the weakest base model in the game (probably a grot) and given him the lowest points cost they could without making spam a problem (so you can't just statcheck your opponent by flooding the table). And then they should have acknowledged that cultists and guardsmen are better than grots and given them a higher points cost accordingly and then priced everything else in the game with those new grot, guardsman, and cultist points costs in mind. But instead they decided they liked pricing things at 5 points for the sake of easy math during list building (I guess).

Agreed. I wouldn't mind 5ppm grots if they could... do something... but they're neither ObjSec nor durable and they have no damage output whatsoever.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Pretty much! But yeah, fair points. I was mostly going by Jidmah's response to your earlier question. Making boys cheaper (and justifying it by lowering their Toughness) would make their offense more cost-effective at the cost of their durability, which seemed in line with what he was saying earlier.

Couple things to consider. 1: external rules balance. going from 8th to 9th everyone lost CC ability because engagement range got significantly smaller. That teamed with Orkz going to 32mm bases means Ork boyz have even less opportunity to get boyz into CC. Blast rules severely hurt hordes now. 2: Internal Issues. Again, going from 8th to 9th, boyz lost or had severely nerfed...Ere We Go, Mob Rule, +1 attack on 20+, KFF got weaker, WAAAGH is now a once a game buff, Painboy isn't worth it, Loss of +1 to charge for evil sunz, Weirdboyz being less effective on boyz, loss of stratagem support.

So simply making boyz cheaper won't address any of their problems. I've run the math ad nauseam and the fact is that thanks to the change to Mob rule Boyz at T5 are LESS durable than Boyz at T4 were last edition point for point. Adjust for loss of #s able to get into CC, points and buffs and boyz are less capable of dealing dmg than 8th edition as well. We also have to address the point that boyz weren't in fact competitive on their own last edition, they were simply counter-meta. In an edition littered with elite infantry and vehicles (flyers) cheap T4 bodies were hard to shift.

Wyldhunt wrote:
Again, fair points. I'm definitely not against giving large squads some sort of leadership protection. Especially if you lower their toughness so that S4 and S5 weapons become more effective at removing boyz again. From the outside looking in, is the point of shootas not that you simply get to contribute offense from farther away? I get that choppa boyz math out to do more damage than shoota boyz, but the shoota boyz can do that damage from inside a trukk and/or on an objective while the choppa boyz have to go to the enemy to do most of their offense. I don't know orks well enough to comment on whether or not shoota boyz do too little damage to be worthwhile, but I think I see the intended trade-off on paper. Shootas are less killy but can contribute at a distance.

If you lower their Toughness than at the very least you need to buff them to where they were in 8th. Which means huge boost to morale, huge boost to melee dmg, huge boost to shooting dmg, huge boosts to buffs/characters and stratagem support. This as stated above merely brings them back to where they were in 8th, which is easy to kill/beat but counter meta. And in this edition they wouldn't be as counter-meta.

Shootas are functionally useless. In 4th edition it took 9 shoota boyz at 18' range to kill 1 Marine. To kill that same Marine now takes 18 shoota boyz. Boyz went from 6ppm to 9ppm and marines went from 15 to 18. So Point for point its even worse than it looks. 54pts to kill 15pts of Marine is now 162 to kill 18 (20 for intercessor) So it was a 3.6 ratio and its now a 9.0 ratio. Almost 3x worse.

Shoota likewise really can't contribute much from a distance because they are ranged 18. Its not infeasible that they never get in range of a target, likewise, even if they did get in range of a target, their dmg is so pathetic as to be negligible. Realistically you only put boyz in mobz of 10. That means it would take a unit of 10 shootaboyz almost 2 full turns to kill 1 Marine. My general rule of thumb is that a ok(ish) shooting unit needs to get a 1/3rd return on investment a turn in order to be functional, boyz are nowhere near that. 10 shoota boyz sitting in cover on an objective by the END of the game would kill 2.7 Marines. Yep, 5 full game turns of shooting and the best they can hope is 2 dead Marines and maybe 1 wound to another. to fix Shootaboyz you would have to literally more than DOUBLE their dmg output for them to even begin to become cost-effective as a shooting unit.

Wyldhunt wrote:
Pretty much! But yeah, fair points. I was mostly going by Jidmah's response to your earlier question. Making boys cheaper (and justifying it by lowering their Toughness) would make their offense more cost-effective at the cost of their durability, which seemed in line with what he was saying earlier.

I don't think cost efficiency is the key here - boyz shouldn't be guardsmen.
They should be able to fight a troops unit of marines, eldar or necrons off an objective, currently they can't really do that.

I don't know orks well enough to comment on whether or not shoota boyz do too little damage to be worthwhile, but I think I see the intended trade-off on paper. Shootas are less killy but can contribute at a distance.

Yes, that's how it should be. Currently you'd be hard-pressed to call their shooting a "contribution" though. It's kind of like slapping two storm bolters on a rhino - you don't really expect them to kill something, but it's nice when they do.
S4 AP0 shooting being useless is not a problem unique to orks though, it's game-wide problem.

In the end, boyz either need to gain damage to be able to perform their intended role, or they need to gain utility to make them stand out from ork specialists (I would prefer this route).

Right now their only unique ability is having large mobs, which is all downside with the current ruleset.

Jid I would be interested in seeing what you mean by "utility".

We currently have the new Eldar rules leak which shows that Guardians become better when they are on an objective, do you mean something like that? Personally, the mindset/fluff of an ork army has me more in mind of attack/speed buffs rather than anything else. The fact that an IG guardsmen is faster than an Ork boy is just stupid.

I think orkz yet again suffer from GW not understanding orkz or having a deep hatred of them. Our movement is was nerfed in 8th, in my opinion, mostly because Evil sunz buffed it insanely so that a unit of boyz was moving 6, advancing 4.5 and charging 8 on average. North of a 20' threat range is pretty damn good for a unit of foot sloggin boyz. So if they hadn't nerfed the movement of all orkz to 5, it would have been 21-22' threat range on average.

Moving boyz to 6' movement and giving them more speed buffs, either inherently or from character support would be a good answer to some of their problems. Right now their durability is non-existent and if you don't want to make them more durable in terms of Armor/wounds/mechanics, then the only other way is by letting them get across the board as fast as possible to minimize model loss.

At the same time though, you would have to split boyz into shoota boyz and choppa boyz. Because making shoota boyz faster won't help them in the slightest bit. Nothing short of doubling their fire power and giving them some kind of secondary rule will fix that, especially in a game where 2 attacks base at S4 no AP is no longer considered "Above Average".

Shoota boyz and choppa boyz already had different profiles and different points costs, in 3rd edition codex. Now considering that choppas give AP-1 (similarly to 3rd edition when choppas limited armour saves to a maximum of 4+) and shootas are worse than they used to be in 4th-8th then slightly cheaper shoota boyz could make sense. Like in 3rd, when they were 8ppm and choppa boyz were 9ppm.

And both good units with a specific purpose: you took choppa boyz for assaulting stuff, typically in large squads of 18+ guys and shoota boyz to add numbers and provide ranged support, typically smaller squads since units could have up to three special weapons regardless of the unit's size. 10-15 shoota boyz with 3 (5ppm) rokkit launchas were a solid option, something I'd like to see again instead of "one special weapon every 10 dudes", which actually made special weapons useless and avoided. It would give shoota boyz a purpose, which they currently lack completely. Unfortunately considering how GW write the rules looking at the kit's options, that will never gonna happen.

Considering how many datasheets we currently have it wouldn't be unreasonable to split boyz into two separate units.

SemperMortis wrote:
Jid I would be interested in seeing what you mean by "utility".

I really don't have a good silver bullet solution here, but I imagine things like having mobs of boyz being have synergy with surrounding specialist, like having them act as shields or raising their morale or increasing their performance or make moral losses nearby replenish boyz mobs. There also could be some synergy rules between boyz and nobz, or you could turn tankbusta bombs into a rule similar to bomb squigs.
There also was the idea with boyz getting faster if there is someone closer to the enemy than them.
The idea with guardians also isn't too bad, you could give them an extra attack when being in engagement range with a unit that is holding an objective.
Worst case you could just give them back some stratagems worth using.

The thing is, you can't just raise their damage to where they are good again, because that would once again eclipse all the specialists which are currently doing quite fine.
That's why I think they need to change their role as to army backbone rather than basic unit good at killing stuff. A unit that you want to have 2-3 times in your army simply because it provides something others can't but that is not doing any heavy lifting.

I think orkz yet again suffer from GW not understanding orkz or having a deep hatred of them. Our movement is was nerfed in 8th, in my opinion, mostly because Evil sunz buffed it insanely so that a unit of boyz was moving 6, advancing 4.5 and charging 8 on average. North of a 20' threat range is pretty damn good for a unit of foot sloggin boyz. So if they hadn't nerfed the movement of all orkz to 5, it would have been 21-22' threat range on average.

To be fair, pretty much every army that was advancing all the time got that cut. They want advancing to be a trade-off, which I can get behind. They aren't out to get orks, but the codex clearly shows that there was no passion to get them right either.

Moving boyz to 6' movement and giving them more speed buffs, either inherently or from character support would be a good answer to some of their problems. Right now their durability is non-existent and if you don't want to make them more durable in terms of Armor/wounds/mechanics, then the only other way is by letting them get across the board as fast as possible to minimize model loss.

Yeah, pretty much. If you want boyz to be killy, essentially you need to solve the equation for "enough boyz to make a difference". Whether you do that through durability, speed or power makes little difference. However, IMO no matter how you do it, you will end up with worthless kommadoz, storm boyz and burnas because they are too close design-wise.

At the same time though, you would have to split boyz into shoota boyz and choppa boyz. Because making shoota boyz faster won't help them in the slightest bit. Nothing short of doubling their fire power and giving them some kind of secondary rule will fix that, especially in a game where 2 attacks base at S4 no AP is no longer considered "Above Average".

I think the split is long overdue. There is no good reason to split battlewagons but not boyz.

I can't see any reason why Shootas and choppas couldn't be separated into two units. It would make nerfing/buffing either one without interfering with the other so much easier.

 Afrodactyl wrote:
I can't see any reason why Shootas and choppas couldn't be separated into two units. It would make nerfing/buffing either one without interfering with the other so much easier.

i sadly doubt this happens anytime soon since the new boyz kit is mixed and monopose

I think this won't happen because the GW Kits shows that they don't see Boyz as Shoota Boyz and Slugga Boyz. They see them as Boyz who mix weapons. Unfortunately, they have failed (for multiple editions) on the rules front to make that an attractive option.

This certainly is a sticky wicket. GW has decided what they want Boyz to look like, but failed to provide non-datasheet support to make them work in the game and overpriced them a 9 PPM.

Would they even be passable at 6 PPM?
Would Shoota's ever have a place over Slugga?
Is the problem really the Boyz datasheet and not Ork core rules and supporting characters that destroyed the synergy that made them work?

And as a note, I don't remember any recent lore where a unit of Ork Boyz is anything other than cannon fodder to a unit of Marines. Not to justify the current rules, but to temper exceptions of what GW will ever make them to be again.

 alextroy wrote:
I think this won't happen because the GW Kits shows that they don't see Boyz as Shoota Boyz and Slugga Boyz. They see them as Boyz who mix weapons. Unfortunately, they have failed (for multiple editions) on the rules front to make that an attractive option.

This certainly is a sticky wicket. GW has decided what they want Boyz to look like, but failed to provide non-datasheet support to make them work in the game and overpriced them a 9 PPM.

Would they even be passable at 6 PPM?
Would Shoota's ever have a place over Slugga?
Is the problem really the Boyz datasheet and not Ork core rules and supporting characters that destroyed the synergy that made them work?

And as a note, I don't remember any recent lore where a unit of Ork Boyz is anything other than cannon fodder to a unit of Marines. Not to justify the current rules, but to temper exceptions of what GW will ever make them to be again.

really depends on the book and author, but in several books a sigle ork that actually reaches combat can be seen either matching or besting a mrine in close combat. one example in the primarch series (Rouboute Guilliman) you have a group of marines in tunnel and bunker type warfare where a squad of marines faces down an about equal number of ork boyz getting the drop on them and wiping the squad as thier choppas hit weak point in armor and the orks have the strength to make those hits count. It should note this was an old ork world where the orks had been battling each other for a very long time these were an established ork planet of battle hardened boyz. In other books and campaigns you will see a marine being equal to 20+ boyz easily felling several with a single well placed bolter shell or chainsword strike.

lorewise this can be explained by the type of boy in question. a small world ork clan is going to have smaller weaker chaff (literally barely above gretchin in the wild boyz stages) vs say a ork boy in a major waaagh where those boyz will likely be the equivilant or nobz on a medium sized world or even possibly warbosses on backwater tiny worlds where the spores only recently (under a century) came to exist. I think part of the problem is GW being unsure how to power boys on the tabletop and wanting them to keel like chaff but also somehow be maybe useful, they rarely get that tightrope correct.

Make Ork Boyz 8pts per model and all is right with the world.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Y'all might think I'm nuts, but hear me out.

T6. T5 was a cool bump, but T6 makes them harder to chew at. Couple with a slight point reduction and you're good to go.

No I don't care if a Custodes players whines. Everyone in that army should've gotten a wound bump but here we are.

Do you want Orks to be auto-lose against Drukhari with a bunch of T6 but no armor units?

Gotta love people who ignore the entire discussion and then claim that -1 point per model will fix everything

Ok here's my proposals just cooked up off the top of my head:

• Shootas go to Dakka 4/2 – a proper hail of fire once the lads get close to the enemy and get worked up
• Drop the points – 7? 8?
• Make big shootas and rocket launchas free for Boyz mobs
• Something whereby if they end their move closer to the nearest enemy unit, they get some sort of movement bonus – move faster? Advance without penalty?
• Maybe the Waaagh banner should give some sort of Morale bonus, given that it's now just overlapping with the Warboss in terms of its buff?

Bonus suggestion: Grots go back down to 3ppm, but can't be used for compulsory detachment slots and you can never have more units of Grots than Boyz.

Tell me why these are stupid.

No, 3ppm models are a relic of the past. So are 6,7 and probably even 8ppm boyz. Make them worthy of being 5ppm and 9ppm respectively instead.

If possible, without increasing the dice rolling.

 Blackie wrote:
No, 3ppm models are a relic of the past. So are 6,7 and probably even 8ppm boyz. Make them worthy of being 5ppm and 9ppm respectively instead.

If possible, without increasing the dice rolling.

Why though? Grots *should* be crap, but arbitrarily saying "oh but they can't be less than 5ppm" just means there's no reason to take them at all.

 Nazrak wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
No, 3ppm models are a relic of the past. So are 6,7 and probably even 8ppm boyz. Make them worthy of being 5ppm and 9ppm respectively instead.

If possible, without increasing the dice rolling.

Why though? Grots *should* be crap, but arbitrarily saying "oh but they can't be less than 5ppm" just means there's no reason to take them at all.

I think the bigger issue than having 3 point models is having a 30 point unit. Having something like that to take up space, perform actions and hold objectives seems to be a problem for the game, as you can see when you look at similar units like servitors.

I'd just make the runtherd mandatory for taking gretchin again, if gretchin+runtherd are 60-70 points they stop being a no-brainer auto-take. Maybe give the runtherd some actually useful auras while you are at it (obsec aura?).
You could also change Zodgrod to be a stand-in for your mandatory runtherd, so there would be a point to bring him as well.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
No, 3ppm models are a relic of the past. So are 6,7 and probably even 8ppm boyz. Make them worthy of being 5ppm and 9ppm respectively instead.

If possible, without increasing the dice rolling.

Why though? Grots *should* be crap, but arbitrarily saying "oh but they can't be less than 5ppm" just means there's no reason to take them at all.

I think the bigger issue than having 3 point models is having a 30 point unit. Having something like that to take up space, perform actions and hold objectives seems to be a problem for the game, as you can see when you look at similar units like servitors.

I'd just make the runtherd mandatory for taking gretchin again, if gretchin+runtherd are 60-70 points they stop being a no-brainer auto-take. Maybe give the runtherd some actually useful auras while you are at it (obsec aura?).
You could also change Zodgrod to be a stand-in for your mandatory runtherd, so there would be a point to bring him as well.

This sounds like a pretty decent idea to me. You don't want a load of Gretchin running about and getting in the way, so maybe make him a requirement for taking Gretchin units?

Bit tangential but I always liked the Ere We Go/Freebooterz era mechanism of "you take these Oddboyz to unlock certain units" (e.g. you need a Mek for vehicles, a Painboy for Dreadnoughts etc) – seems like it means there's actually a point to them then.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nazrak wrote:
can't be used for compulsory detachment slots and you can never have more units of Grots than Boyz.

Combined with this, it means you discourage taking the Gretchin just as cheap Troop slot fillers, even if they're cheap af

I would argue that gretchin still need to be cheap. compare a gretchin to an imperial guardsman (not a very powerful model or saying the guardsman is good) for 5.5 points vs 5 points for the grtchen ... the gretchin needs some serious buffs or a price drop. slapping a runtherd for free would still not make them appealing compared to other 5 point models. Even at 30 points for 10 with runtherd given the differences if i could buy guardsman i would.

it was play tested for 2 gretchin per 5 points and min squad 10 but even in then it was terrible (similar rules to now but they were still t2) the answer was despite them being awful increase toughness by 1 and use the new 5 point minimum on them as well (they were going to be the only exception due to being terrible still, but they did objective cheaply if they could stay alive which spoiler with no save and low leadership they did not)

for a fix i would say the old d3 mortals to pass leadership, free runtherd in the deal and some kind of -1 to hit due to being tiny might do it

My suggestion was to drop gretchin to 3-4 points and keep the runtherd at 30, but with an useful aura. That way the minimum cost of one unit of gretchin would be 60-70.

The difference to making the runtherd free is that a unit of 30 gretchin would be cheaper than 3 units of 10.

I also think that there should absolutely be no morale mitigation for gretchin, especially if boyz don't have one.
The number of gretchin rarely, if ever, matters as long as there is one left and wiping them should be easy.

bibotot wrote:
Make Ork Boyz 8pts per model and all is right with the world.

Yeah...no. All you do with this is make the troop tax slightly cheaper. You are still left with 1-3 MSU Troop choices that don't function within the army.

 Nazrak wrote:
Ok here's my proposals just cooked up off the top of my head:
• Shootas go to Dakka 4/2 – a proper hail of fire once the lads get close to the enemy and get worked up
• Drop the points – 7? 8?
• Make big shootas and rocket launchas free for Boyz mobs
• Something whereby if they end their move closer to the nearest enemy unit, they get some sort of movement bonus – move faster? Advance without penalty?
• Maybe the Waaagh banner should give some sort of Morale bonus, given that it's now just overlapping with the Warboss in terms of its buff?
Bonus suggestion: Grots go back down to 3ppm, but can't be used for compulsory detachment slots and you can never have more units of Grots than Boyz.
Tell me why these are stupid.

1: Shootas SUCK. 3(2) is garbage because nobody is moving them within 9' of their target. And if they are that close you would have been better off with choppas, advancing and charging. If you want Shootas to function they need to be BS4 and 3 shots minimum ALWAYS. its a S4 0AP shot, 1.5 hits per model still isn't great. Assume no points changes.
4th-7th edition Shoota boyz: To kill 1 Marine took 9 Shoota boyz or 81pts. 81pts kills 15pts this is a BAD return on investment.
9th edition Shoota boyz currently: To kill 1Marine takes 18 Shoota boyz or 162pts. In "Dakka" range its 108pts to kill 1 Marine. In other words you would have to spend 5 entire game turns shooting to your hearts content to ALMOST make your points back, you still fail, but its close.

9th edition Shoota boyz buffed with +1BS and 3 shots base. To kill 1 Marine now takes 8 Shoota boyz at 72pts. 72pts kills 18-20pts of Marine in 1 turn, not good but a hell of a lot better than it currently is.

2: Make big shootas/rokkitz free....You would never take big shootas....ever...literally ever. Next, they don't synergize even slightly with Choppa mobz. Why give up CC attacks for a unit that is advancing and therefore can't fire the heavy weapon you get for free?

3: They drastically need a movement buff. The fact that a guardsmen is FASTER than a Boy is stupid. But agree with your concept of a bonus for moving towards combat, I would likely make it a leadership buff though, like +1LD if they finish the movement phase closer to enemy units. As far as movement, I have no idea, maybe +1 movement aura for the warboss for boyz units but I'm not sure.

4: Waaagh Banner: The problem with the Banner right now is that its 1, too expensive and 2, already common buff that we don't really need. If a WAAAAGH banner gave +1 to hit instead of just in CC it could be a good shooting bonus that would synergize well with advancing units of nobz/boyz but that is about it. LD is already a problem but unless you re-work the entire mob rule than there is no fix except MSU.

5: Grots already suck so badly that I don't even take them as a "cheap" troops choice, I view them as a net negative. Their point historically has been to be cheap screens, objective holders and bullet sponges. Give them Grot shields as a rule where any ork unit nearby (6') can transfer dmg to them instead and they would at least function as wound sponges. But at the moment they don't serve a purpose at all.

 Nazrak wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
No, 3ppm models are a relic of the past. So are 6,7 and probably even 8ppm boyz. Make them worthy of being 5ppm and 9ppm respectively instead.

If possible, without increasing the dice rolling.

Why though? Grots *should* be crap, but arbitrarily saying "oh but they can't be less than 5ppm" just means there's no reason to take them at all.

Because spamming hundreds of models is bad. Period. Both gretchins and boyz in previous editions were good only when they were spammable. Even in 8th, when they could get a ton of buffs, boyz were a decent option only if you took 90+ of them. And typically only Goffs. I'd like making them good rather than cheap. And 5ppm/9ppm is IMHO already ridiculously cheap generally speaking.

For example boyz could tank the shots much better than they do with effective tools to ignore/mitigate morale, could get effective ways to be delievered, like built in trukk boyz ability or tools to double up their movement, maybe a better save and maybe a better combat potential, starting with keeping klan bonuses if trukk boyz. I also like the idea of giving up to 3 special weapons regardless of the squad's size (example: 10 shoota boyz with 3 rokkits as campers) instead of 1 every 10 models, although I understand it goes against the "what's in the box" concept and that's never gonna happen then. Nob blows can be buffed as well.

Gretchins can have built in -1 to hit (they're so tiny that it's not easy to target them!) and 4++ for all infantries behind them, of course removing a grot every successful invuln roll. Plus obj sec like any other troops. They could get shenanigans to mess up enemy actions or enemy obj sec ability. They'd still be "crap" with their stats, both units, but useful crap.

I'd rather have those kind of boyz and gretchins than mediocre and ultra cheap ones. AKA useless unless flooding the board.

If they’re flooding the board then they’re not useless. Taking more bodies than bullets should be a valid strategy for orks. Basically my input here:
Keep boyz at t5 and ap-1 choppas, but revert all the special rules back to 8th.
Shootas go to 18” ap-1 3 shots assault
Weirdboyz are reverted to 8th
Kustom force field is reverted to 4th (extends out of a vehicle it’s embarked in)
Transports are point dropped a lot
Drop down the price of boyz to 8ppm
Grots are bought at 10 for 2 points, go back to t2 but 6+ save, runtherd can kill d3 to pass morale, and they don’t suffer blast.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
If they’re flooding the board then they’re not useless. Taking more bodies than bullets should be a valid strategy for orks

Not with 9th edition standards of firepower, when everybody rolls hundreds of dice. I can roll over 200 dice just with my 9 bikes, 2 scrapjets and the dakkajet alone. 550ish points of stuff. I'm sure real shooting armies can do much better with the same amount of points.

Yes, but positing that those now have a 5++ from the kustom force field, one of the things that makes the ork army tick, as well as possibly a 6+++ from the painboy, and something like unstoppable green tide, the math gets better. What about the painboss being able to revive 2d3 boyz or 3d3 grots as well. Orks live and die on their buff characters, at least in the old days.

Reviving fallen models should definitely be a feature of orks docs. Everyone has that, barring orks.

I think ork docs are the worst medical unit in the game rn lol, no revives and can just kill something if you’re not lucky.

A big part of making Boyz (and Gretchin) work is making the support characters work. Currently, no one are taking Painboyz, Nobz with Waaagh Banners and Weirdboyz because they simply don't do enough to justify their points cost.
KFF Meks were only taken in some vehicle lists, but now the Speedmob list has made them pointless.
Boyz could work at their current points cost if they were given better buffs by characters.
Gretching simply need better rules to make them worth 5 PPM. Giving them Obsec and a Runtherd for free would be a good start. I also like the idead of built-in grot shields. That way, they could at least make the specialist units more durable by standing in the way.

I think grot shields, free runtherd, and a -1 to hit could do it for grots.
In terms of other support characters, I think a waaagh banner would be cool if it was a selected buff but permanently conveyed waaagh to a unit, painboyz giving like, reanimating protocols to a unit could be more accurate, and just for weirdboyz make em like they were in 8th.


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Boyz do just need a point drop to 7 points though, I think it’s pretty unarguable, especially with how kroot outperform them.