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Just dropping the points cost of Boyz would make choppa Boyz worthwhile, but not Shoota Boyz in any way.

Only if you drop them to 5 points, at which point they become alright, with the other stuff probably still outperforming them. Boyz have had the buffs of 5+kff, painboyz, and weirdboyz for 4 editions now, idk why they decided to nerf em.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Only if you drop them to 5 points, at which point they become alright, with the other stuff probably still outperforming them. Boyz have had the buffs of 5+kff, painboyz, and weirdboyz for 4 editions now, idk why they decided to nerf em.

Because in true GW fashion, nobody there plays orkz so they don't understand the Fething faction to the point where they thought "OMG! T5 Boyz! that would be OP, better nerf them"

 Blackie wrote:

That wouldn't fix anything, people wouldn't field more boyz with a 1ppm price drop assuming nothing else changes. They need a purpose in the army, a role, and at the moment they only have one: being trukk boyz. And people already run them as trukk boyz.

For larger amounts of boyz the horde needs to gain a purpose. Being 80-100 points cheaper simply wouldn't do it. Being 240-300 would, but then they'd be too cheap, and good only because they'd be super cheap wounds to spam.

9ppm ork boyz can definitely work, they just need to be more resilient. The easiest fix is to make them somehow fearless (for example as long they are a large squad) so they don't double their casualties to morale anymore.

They're just not efficient for their points. A 1 point drop would make them more efficient. As simple as that.

If you're worried about combat attrition, don't take blobs. Take them in 10 model units.

Jarms48 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

That wouldn't fix anything, people wouldn't field more boyz with a 1ppm price drop assuming nothing else changes. They need a purpose in the army, a role, and at the moment they only have one: being trukk boyz. And people already run them as trukk boyz.

For larger amounts of boyz the horde needs to gain a purpose. Being 80-100 points cheaper simply wouldn't do it. Being 240-300 would, but then they'd be too cheap, and good only because they'd be super cheap wounds to spam.

9ppm ork boyz can definitely work, they just need to be more resilient. The easiest fix is to make them somehow fearless (for example as long they are a large squad) so they don't double their casualties to morale anymore.

They're just not efficient for their points. A 1 point drop would make them more efficient. As simple as that.

If you're worried about combat attrition, don't take blobs. Take them in 10 model units.

A 1pt drop would make them more efficient, but still not enough to serve a purpose. They are too slow, too fragile, not damaging enough and have no synergy with the rest of the Ork codex. none of that is fixed by dropping them 1ppm.

SemperMortis wrote:

Jarms48 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

That wouldn't fix anything, people wouldn't field more boyz with a 1ppm price drop assuming nothing else changes. They need a purpose in the army, a role, and at the moment they only have one: being trukk boyz. And people already run them as trukk boyz.

For larger amounts of boyz the horde needs to gain a purpose. Being 80-100 points cheaper simply wouldn't do it. Being 240-300 would, but then they'd be too cheap, and good only because they'd be super cheap wounds to spam.

9ppm ork boyz can definitely work, they just need to be more resilient. The easiest fix is to make them somehow fearless (for example as long they are a large squad) so they don't double their casualties to morale anymore.

They're just not efficient for their points. A 1 point drop would make them more efficient. As simple as that.

If you're worried about combat attrition, don't take blobs. Take them in 10 model units.

A 1pt drop would make them more efficient, but still not enough to serve a purpose. They are too slow, too fragile, not damaging enough and have no synergy with the rest of the Ork codex. none of that is fixed by dropping them 1ppm.

Yup, points drops can only go so far and it doesn't solve the core issue of them currently be a fish out of water in the Ork codex. They need a fundamental rewrite or core changes in the baseline Ork armywide rules for them to be relevant outside of being Trukk boyz.

Special rule - dumb as a rock - orks are immune to morale. They are too stupid to be afraid.

warpedpig wrote:
Special rule - dumb as a rock - orks are immune to morale. They are too stupid to be afraid.

First of all, that's not how orks are.

Second, we don't need actual immunity - what we had before was totally ok, I don't think anyone has an issue with losing extra boyz if the opponent actually pours some firepower into them. The issue is taking massive casualties from attrition every other time anyone bothers to shoot them - while no one else in the game ever has that issue.

warpedpig wrote:
Special rule - dumb as a rock - orks are immune to morale. They are too stupid to be afraid.

Like Jidmah said, this is bad. Morale is trivial enough as is without making more factions de-facto immune to it. Orks can also be quite cowardly, it's really the context of numbers (hence Mob Rule) and the presence of Nobz/Bosses that make boyz stay stuck in. Bringing that back in some way would help us a lot (even just scaling +1Ld buffs to a unit as more Orks are in the unit and nearby Nobz or Warbosses would make a difference).

And it still wouldn't address their other big problems. They are too slow and when they do finally get to combat they don't do much.

They lack synergy with the rest of the ork units, they lost a lot of special rules, they lost buffs from characters etc. They need more help.

There is synergy in the ork codex?

 Jidmah wrote:
There is synergy in the ork codex?

Of course! We have near broken strats that combine the best abilities of Warbosses and Nobz that let us ignore morale for not only 2CP but ALSO D3 mortal wounds on our unit. And we get our 5++ KFF save back, but only after 2CP and once per game! We even have redundancy built in with WAAAGH! Banners and Warbosses so that you can multiple overlapping +1 to hit to make sure those pesky Banshees can't make use of their -1 to hit. Watch out for the nerf bat, because GW knows how strong we are.

SemperMortis wrote:
And it still wouldn't address their other big problems. They are too slow and when they do finally get to combat they don't do much.

They lack synergy with the rest of the ork units, they lost a lot of special rules, they lost buffs from characters etc. They need more help.

It would take a step toward fixing the damage issue by virtue of there in theory being more boys in combat when they eventually get there, and thus more attacks.

It's very much slapping a band-aid on the issue, but it would be better than nothing.

I think if speed/delivery and morale are fixed, then damage becomes less of an issue overall. We also still need actual character and stratagem support back though.

 Afrodactyl wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
And it still wouldn't address their other big problems. They are too slow and when they do finally get to combat they don't do much.

They lack synergy with the rest of the ork units, they lost a lot of special rules, they lost buffs from characters etc. They need more help.

It would take a step toward fixing the damage issue by virtue of there in theory being more boys in combat when they eventually get there, and thus more attacks.

It's very much slapping a band-aid on the issue, but it would be better than nothing.

I think if speed/delivery and morale are fixed, then damage becomes less of an issue overall. We also still need actual character and stratagem support back though.

True to an extent, but again i'll point to you the math on this.

4th edition Boyz 6ppm 4th edition Marine 15ppm.
9th edition boyz 9ppm, 9th edition Marine 18ppm.

4th edition boyz. 15 of them = 90pts. 15 Boyz on the charge got 2 attacks base, +1 for choppa +1 for Charging. That was 60 attacks, against Marines 30 hits, 15 wounds and 5 dead Marines. 90pts of Boyz killed 75pts of Marine.

9th edition boyz. 10 of them = 90pts. 10 boyz on the charge get 2 attacks base, +1 for choppas. That is 30 attacks, 20 hits, and against Marines 10 wounds and 5dmg for 2.5 dead Marines. 90pts of Boyz just killed 45pts(ish) of Marine.

Now add in the new CC rules which limit the number of models able to swing, add in the increased base size for boyz and it gets even worse. Simply dropping Boyz to 8ppm would not adjust the math that much in favor of Orkz.
4th edition 4 boyz = 24pts. 9th edition 3 boyz = 24pts (at 8ppm). 4 boyz is 16 attacks, 8 hits, 4 wounds and 1.3 dead Marines.
9th edition 3 boyz = 9 attacks, 6 hits, 3 wounds and 1.5dmg to Marines for less than 1 dead Marine.

Now you could argue that boyz in 4th edition were OP compared to Marines in CC, and that is a valid discussion to have, but even comparing boyz to 8th edition and the math doesn't work out very well in favor of 9th edtion boyz, especially when you factor in the +1 attack for 20+ models and the stratagem support which still saw boyz being a skew list rather than truly competitive.

Boyz need a lot of help to get to where they need to be. The trick is to make them worth taking while not stepping on the toes of other units like Kommandos, Meganobz and Nobz. Of course the supreme irony is that all 4 units are atm CC oriented and with the exception of the Meganobz, geared towards mulching light/medium infantry.

Boyz need to serve a purpose more than anything else. We either need them to be mobile CC units, Hard hitting CC units, mobile gunline units, hard hitting/durable gun line units or an extremely durable objective camping unit. At the moment htey don't do any of those.

Don't get me wrong, I didn't say it would improve the damage by a lot

I completely agree that boys need a purpose, and I still think that they need to be split into separate datasheets for sluggas and shootas for that to happen efficiently. Shoota boys aren't interested in rules that would make specifically Slugga boys better and vice versa, but rules to improve orks overall would be of interest.

Shootas need a reason to even exist at this point. At least Gretchin are small and easily hidable even if they're incapable of doing anything else.

I'd like to see the banner nob act like an icon ward for GSC. Let him keep bringing boyz back to the unit.

 Dendarien wrote:
I'd like to see the banner nob act like an icon ward for GSC. Let him keep bringing boyz back to the unit.

Fluffwise, not sure that makes as much sense.
GSC have tons of hidey holes and spring up from nowhere. Orks... You can kinda see them coming.

That being said, adding a Morale element to the Banner Nob might do something? I'd be hesitant to add a FNP effect (that's the Dok's job, though they should be better) but morale mitigation makes sense.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Dendarien wrote:
I'd like to see the banner nob act like an icon ward for GSC. Let him keep bringing boyz back to the unit.

Fluffwise, not sure that makes as much sense.
GSC have tons of hidey holes and spring up from nowhere. Orks... You can kinda see them coming.

That being said, adding a Morale element to the Banner Nob might do something? I'd be hesitant to add a FNP effect (that's the Dok's job, though they should be better) but morale mitigation makes sense.

Why not fluff wise? It's the WAAAGH banner calling more boyz to the fight.

 Dendarien wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Dendarien wrote:
I'd like to see the banner nob act like an icon ward for GSC. Let him keep bringing boyz back to the unit.

Fluffwise, not sure that makes as much sense.
GSC have tons of hidey holes and spring up from nowhere. Orks... You can kinda see them coming.

That being said, adding a Morale element to the Banner Nob might do something? I'd be hesitant to add a FNP effect (that's the Dok's job, though they should be better) but morale mitigation makes sense.

Why not fluff wise? It's the WAAAGH banner calling more boyz to the fight.

Right, but where do they come from?
GSC come from nooks and crannies, but Orks are too big to fit in there.

The suggestion I've seen before, of "Fleeing Boys can join a larger nearby mob when they run," could be something to link to the Banner Nob, but that feels like it should either be a Stratagem or a generic rule, not associated with one specific model.

 Dendarien wrote:
I'd like to see the banner nob act like an icon ward for GSC. Let him keep bringing boyz back to the unit.

If Mob Rule gets fixed to be actually useful, then I could see the banner nob being changed to be a morale booster. Something like a +2 to LD while in the aura, or limiting attrition losses or something.

Or, the banner nob could be a prerequisite for an Endless Green Tide type strat by rallying all the boys that have fled or calling up reinforcements, etc. Makes about as much sense as the strat did in the first place.

Yeah, I agree that the WAAAGH! Banner bringing back models would be a bit weird IMO, if anything the Painboy should be the one that actually does that instead. Painboyz should be able to either bring back one Ork Infantry or Biker model to a unit within 3" or in the case of a BOYZ unit, they get 2D3 boyz back. I'd actually like to too if they just gave them some type of "Fighting Juice" buff that they give a CORE Ork infantry/biker unit at the start of the command phase, that could either give a 5+ FNP or some type of melee/charge buff.

Meanwhile a WAAAGH! banner could give better morale boosts as other people mentioned or just a +1A or +1 to movement, advance and charge bubble, anything that doesn't overlap with the Warboss' current aura ability. Both of these things could help boyz a lot more as a unit in terms of support.

Now if a baseline KFF just gave a 5+ invuln but maybe lower its aura radius to 3" and we would be set.

Banner nob could easily be something like the Imagifier, with 2-3 different bonuses to choose from.

 Blackie wrote:
Banner nob could easily be something like the Imagifier, with 2-3 different bonuses to choose from.

Yup, depending on what kind of banner he is flying. Lots of creative design options available there to help fix a host of issues. But for boyz in general, slapping a 70pt character next to them isn't going to fix much

After that GT this last weekend...yeah...

Make boyz fearless, nope you didn't misunderstand me, make them completely and utterly fearless. Give them a base 6+ Invuln instead of a 6+ armor save and then jump them up to base 3 attacks with the nobz going to Base 4 and meganobz base 5. Also, jump PKs and Saws up to 3 and D3+1 dmg. Honestly with the ridiculous meta i just witnessed first hand, orkz still wouldn't be a top tier list