Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
I feel like I can't answer this question without taking money into account.
Depending on the unit and models I prefer to not pay $15 "customization tax", while for others I would gladly pay it.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Jidmah wrote: I feel like I can't answer this question without taking money into account.
Depending on the unit and models I prefer to not pay $15 "customization tax", while for others I would gladly pay it.
Though with GWs course you're likely to pay more for less customization, see old and new Boyz, old and new CSM. If you take Plague Marines you have the choice of cheap monoposes, expensive monoposes and moderate customizable models
I don't think you can use old models as a reference, as they might have been skipped by the price hikes at some point in the past.
A "modern" kit with no customization and 10 models is $45 (new boyz), one with customization is $60 (kommandoz).
For plague marines, all cheaper alternatives to the expensive customizable kit have been purged.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
I mean there was some loss and some gain.
The Icons went from banners to backpack add-ons losing the God-specific gubbins and the Champion lost the God-specific helmets/shoulders.
That being said, the unit now comes with all the Special Weapon options, two Heavy weapons and is completely compatible with the Havocs kit for other choices. The old Champion had the choice of Chainsword, Power Sword, and Power Fist whereas the new kit swapped the Power Sword for an Axe and added the Power Maul.
Would I have preferred to see the God-specific gubbins stay for the Champion? Sure but the kit is much better than the old one IMO even with certain limitations.
I mean there was some loss and some gain.
The Icons went from banners to backpack add-ons losing the God-specific gubbins and the Champion lost the God-specific helmets/shoulders.
That being said, the unit now comes with all the Special Weapon options, two Heavy weapons and is completely compatible with the Havocs kit for other choices. The old Champion had the choice of Chainsword, Power Sword, and Power Fist whereas the new kit swapped the Power Sword for an Axe and added the Power Maul.
Would I have preferred to see the God-specific gubbins stay for the Champion? Sure but the kit is much better than the old one IMO even with certain limitations.
Don't forget that you lost the option to equip the whole squad with its base weapons, i. e. pistol + Chainsword or bolters for everyone.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: Don't forget that you lost the option to equip the whole squad with its base weapons, i. e. pistol + Chainsword or bolters for everyone.
Something I never did so it doesn't bother me, a position I would believe is not uncommon.
In fact, the only place I've seen it bemoaned is on Dakka which is hardly a surprise.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/02/18 19:12:09
Sgt. Cortez wrote: Don't forget that you lost the option to equip the whole squad with its base weapons, i. e. pistol + Chainsword or bolters for everyone.
Something I never did so it doesn't bother me, a position I would believe is not uncommon.
In fact, the only place I've seen it bemoaned is on Dakka which is hardly a surprise.
The standard equipment for a CSM squad is either 7 Bolter guys, 2 special/ heavy weapons, Sgt. with Combi, or you go CC with 9 Chainsword guys + Sgt. With special weapon, + Icon. Or you go MSU. MSU still works a little, you can make a CC squad + flamer + Sgt. And a shooty squad out of the Box. But a useful loadout for the whole ten is not possible anymore (note I'm not talking competitive here, I couldn't care less about what's meta, but even as a casual player you know there's no use in putting 3 CC guys into your objective Holding ranged squad). It's only possible if you play without wysiwyg.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: Don't forget that you lost the option to equip the whole squad with its base weapons, i. e. pistol + Chainsword or bolters for everyone.
Something I never did so it doesn't bother me, a position I would believe is not uncommon.
In fact, the only place I've seen it bemoaned is on Dakka which is hardly a surprise.
Just because it doesn't affect you doesn't mean it's not a problem. I never used any of the "God-specific gubbins", but I still think they should be available for those that did.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: The standard equipment for a CSM squad is either 7 Bolter guys, 2 special/ heavy weapons, Sgt. with Combi, or you go CC with 9 Chainsword guys + Sgt. With special weapon, + Icon. Or you go MSU. MSU still works a little, you can make a CC squad + flamer + Sgt. And a shooty squad out of the Box. But a useful loadout for the whole ten is not possible anymore (note I'm not talking competitive here, I couldn't care less about what's meta, but even as a casual player you know there's no use in putting 3 CC guys into your objective Holding ranged squad). It's only possible if you play without wysiwyg.
Oh no I have to take weapons that make the squad better, what a tragedy.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gadzilla666 wrote: Just because it doesn't affect you doesn't mean it's not a problem. I never used any of the "God-specific gubbins", but I still think they should be available for those that did.
It is the definition of "not my problem" actually. And I didn't say the removal of the God-specific gubbins was a good thing, in fact, I specifically said I would have preferred they stayed.
It's hilarious to me that this is still something that gets whined about so bloody often. The new Ork Boyz? Absolutely. You don't get enough equipment to give the unit the basic squad size of the same equipment. The CSM? No, I disagree that this should still be such a point of contention.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/02/18 19:55:17
Gadzilla666 wrote: Just because it doesn't affect you doesn't mean it's not a problem. I never used any of the "God-specific gubbins", but I still think they should be available for those that did.
It is the definition of "not my problem" actually. And I didn't say the removal of the God-specific gubbins was a good thing, in fact, I specifically said I would have preferred they stayed.
It's hilarious to me that this is still something that gets whined about so bloody often. The new Ork Boyz? Absolutely. You don't get enough equipment to give the unit the basic squad size of the same equipment. The CSM? No, I disagree that this should still be such a point of contention.
That was my point: just because it isn't "you're problem" doesn't mean it isn't a problem for someone else, in the same way that there not being any God-specific gubbins isn't "my problem". The kit should have as many options as possible to satisfy the various needs of as many people as possible. Not just you and me, especially since we wouldn't even agree on what should be in it.
Gadzilla666 wrote: The kit should have as many options as possible to satisfy the various needs of as many people as possible.
And yet it does. The only people this kit doesn't explicitly cater to are the people who don't want anything but barebones no upgrades units. Do you fit this description? How many players do you know that fit this description? Have you ever encountered a real-life person who has stated that they hate the newer CSM because you have to take Special/Heavy weapons in units larger than 5? Is this a massive non-issue but because people don't in fact run barebones units in any large capacity?
We could argue about hypothetical people and their hypothetical problems until the stars go cold and the universe collapses in on itself. But what is the point?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/02/18 20:27:07
For me, makes sense because making my dudes my way is a big part of the attraction of the hobby. If I wanted all standard strategem mediated plastic tokens to abstractly represent whatever a card tells me will happen next, I would collect Tarot or play board games more seriously. But that sort of casual abstraction as if real things on realistic terrain with realistic rules do not matter, however “competitive” people wanna make it, just is not the same…
The poll does not make GW pricing explicit, though there is no reason that a customizable kit with extra gubbinz should come out all that much more expensive than the new mono pose standard.
Gadzilla666 wrote: That was my point: just because it isn't "you're problem" doesn't mean it isn't a problem for someone else, in the same way that there not being any God-specific gubbins isn't "my problem". The kit should have as many options as possible to satisfy the various needs of as many people as possible. Not just you and me, especially since we wouldn't even agree on what should be in it.
"Don't care. Got mine!" is a terrible attitude to have. Completely unsurprising that we're seeing it in this thread.
Gadzilla666 wrote: That was my point: just because it isn't "you're problem" doesn't mean it isn't a problem for someone else, in the same way that there not being any God-specific gubbins isn't "my problem". The kit should have as many options as possible to satisfy the various needs of as many people as possible. Not just you and me, especially since we wouldn't even agree on what should be in it.
"Don't care. Got mine!" is a terrible attitude to have. Completely unsurprising that we're seeing it in this thread.
Unsurprising but.....disappointing. Especially since with the way gw has been writing rules lately, if the option isn't in the kit, it just might not be on the datasheet.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: The standard equipment for a CSM squad is either 7 Bolter guys, 2 special/ heavy weapons, Sgt. with Combi, or you go CC with 9 Chainsword guys + Sgt. With special weapon, + Icon. Or you go MSU. MSU still works a little, you can make a CC squad + flamer + Sgt. And a shooty squad out of the Box. But a useful loadout for the whole ten is not possible anymore (note I'm not talking competitive here, I couldn't care less about what's meta, but even as a casual player you know there's no use in putting 3 CC guys into your objective Holding ranged squad). It's only possible if you play without wysiwyg.
Oh no I have to take weapons that make the squad better, what a tragedy.
that wasn't their point. Their point was there weren't ENOUGH weapons in the box for the datasheet.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gadzilla666 wrote: Just because it doesn't affect you doesn't mean it's not a problem. I never used any of the "God-specific gubbins", but I still think they should be available for those that did.
It is the definition of "not my problem" actually. And I didn't say the removal of the God-specific gubbins was a good thing, in fact, I specifically said I would have preferred they stayed.
It's hilarious to me that this is still something that gets whined about so bloody often. The new Ork Boyz? Absolutely. You don't get enough equipment to give the unit the basic squad size of the same equipment. The CSM? No, I disagree that this should still be such a point of contention.
And again he said "not a problem" not "not a problem FOR YOU" (Emphasis mine). If you're going to argue dishonestly, you should learn to do it better.
Quasistellar wrote: I suspect there's a LOT of people clicking option two without actually reading what the poll really means.
It's not even remotely possible that kit customizability could be really, really popular?
Having just gotten a 3D Printer and started doing the "check out the files online" thing I'm shocked kits with more bits are popular, as I download Ravenwing bits for Primaris Bikes, Chapter Specific tank doors, Magna-bits for Gladiator Tanks, and such. Well, not really.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/02/19 04:47:26
The only people this kit doesn't explicitly cater to are the people who don't want anything but barebones no upgrades units. Do you fit this description? How many players do you know that fit this description? Have you ever encountered a real-life person who has stated that they hate the newer CSM because you have to take Special/Heavy weapons in units larger than 5? Is this a massive non-issue but because people don't in fact run barebones units in any large capacity?
Not one of you has answered these questions.
It's actually pathetic that this has turned into a bloody dogpile because I don't agree with your whinging.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/02/20 12:41:43
And again he said "not a problem" not "not a problem FOR YOU" (Emphasis mine). If you're going to argue dishonestly, you should learn to do it better.
This whole discussion about the CSM box has been in bad faith with people using hypothetical fringe cases as reasoning for their arguments. Gad didn't even reply to what I wrote here:
Spoiler:
Gert wrote: And yet it does. The only people this kit doesn't explicitly cater to are the people who don't want anything but barebones no upgrades units. Do you fit this description? How many players do you know that fit this description? Have you ever encountered a real-life person who has stated that they hate the newer CSM because you have to take Special/Heavy weapons in units larger than 5? Is this a massive non-issue but because people don't in fact run barebones units in any large capacity?
We could argue about hypothetical people and their hypothetical problems until the stars go cold and the universe collapses in on itself. But what is the point?
And I suspect that it's because they don't actually have a reply. This whole discussion is a joke to me because it's such a non-issue for everyone apart from one very specific instance and still three years post-release it gets pages of whinging.
I never replied to you because I don't have any interest in wasting my time. Because you're right, I could argue about this with you until the eventual heat death of the universe and not get anywhere, because I know you well enough to know you won't budge in your opinion, and neither will I. But you want a reply? Fine:
Yes, it is a problem that you can't build a full bolter or chainsword squad from the kit because that's what some people want. It doesn't matter if it's what you want, or if it's what I want, because we aren't everyone. You can't measure the kits quality by our opinions alone, because we aren't the arbitrators of "what's good enough" for everyone else.
But since you only understand "me problems", then consider this: the kit contains no combi-weapons for the Aspiring Champion. None. And that has been an option for our Champions for ages. And as I mentioned up thread, if the option isn't in the kit, it just might not be in the datasheet with GW's current methods for writing rules. And that's definitely a problem for me, and a lot of other people who equipped their Aspiring Champions with combi-weapons to add more firepower to the squad. You need to look at these things for how they could affect the unit later down the line, instead of just arguing for arguments sake.
There are 7 Chainswords in the kit, right? So you can go 7 CC guys + CC Champion and then the last two will have to carry two special weapons that will only make your squad more expensive and worse in CC than you'd want in a specialized squad. I'll give you that a flamer and a melta aren't bad weapons in a squad that wants to get close per se but with how 40K works they're unlikely to be what you want in a CC squad.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: The standard equipment for a CSM squad is either 7 Bolter guys, 2 special/ heavy weapons, Sgt. with Combi, or you go CC with 9 Chainsword guys + Sgt. With special weapon, + Icon. Or you go MSU. MSU still works a little, you can make a CC squad + flamer + Sgt. And a shooty squad out of the Box. But a useful loadout for the whole ten is not possible anymore (note I'm not talking competitive here, I couldn't care less about what's meta, but even as a casual player you know there's no use in putting 3 CC guys into your objective Holding ranged squad). It's only possible if you play without wysiwyg.
Oh no I have to take weapons that make the squad better, what a tragedy.
that wasn't their point. Their point was there weren't ENOUGH weapons in the box for the datasheet.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gadzilla666 wrote: Just because it doesn't affect you doesn't mean it's not a problem. I never used any of the "God-specific gubbins", but I still think they should be available for those that did.
It is the definition of "not my problem" actually. And I didn't say the removal of the God-specific gubbins was a good thing, in fact, I specifically said I would have preferred they stayed.
It's hilarious to me that this is still something that gets whined about so bloody often. The new Ork Boyz? Absolutely. You don't get enough equipment to give the unit the basic squad size of the same equipment. The CSM? No, I disagree that this should still be such a point of contention.
And again he said "not a problem" not "not a problem FOR YOU" (Emphasis mine). If you're going to argue dishonestly, you should learn to do it better.
Quasistellar wrote: I suspect there's a LOT of people clicking option two without actually reading what the poll really means.
It's not even remotely possible that kit customizability could be really, really popular?
Having just gotten a 3D Printer and started doing the "check out the files online" thing I'm shocked kits with more bits are popular, as I download Ravenwing bits for Primaris Bikes, Chapter Specific tank doors, Magna-bits for Gladiator Tanks, and such.
Kanluwen wrote:As usual, bad poll from OP is bad poll.
Should be:
"do you want characters", not the generalist trash you always do to skew results.
Anyways, the answer is: it depends.
We don't need a Calgar with a bajillion parts...but a generic Captain? Could be nice.
Also:
more bespoke profiles for the various armies would be nice.
AnomanderRake wrote:
Quasistellar wrote: I suspect there's a LOT of people clicking option two without actually reading what the poll really means.
It's not even remotely possible that kit customizability could be really, really popular?
Case in point. I'd agree with anomander if that's what the poll actually said, but it isn't.
I ignore that ‘naut’s posts so only see them quoted in another’s… generalist trash ? Yeah, ok… it is a simple poll and general, yes, open for discussion. As for quasistellar, I cannot make sense of the retort. Tried… dumbfounded. Rake seems to have hit a nail on the head, though. That much I can see and exalted.
And again he said "not a problem" not "not a problem FOR YOU" (Emphasis mine). If you're going to argue dishonestly, you should learn to do it better.
This whole discussion about the CSM box has been in bad faith with people using hypothetical fringe cases as reasoning for their arguments. Gad didn't even reply to what I wrote here:
Gert wrote: And yet it does. The only people this kit doesn't explicitly cater to are the people who don't want anything but barebones no upgrades units. Do you fit this description? How many players do you know that fit this description? Have you ever encountered a real-life person who has stated that they hate the newer CSM because you have to take Special/Heavy weapons in units larger than 5? Is this a massive non-issue but because people don't in fact run barebones units in any large capacity?
We could argue about hypothetical people and their hypothetical problems until the stars go cold and the universe collapses in on itself. But what is the point?
And I suspect that it's because they don't actually have a reply. This whole discussion is a joke to me because it's such a non-issue for everyone apart from one very specific instance and still three years post-release it gets pages of whinging.
I never replied to you because I don't have any interest in wasting my time. Because you're right, I could argue about this with you until the eventual heat death of the universe and not get anywhere, because I know you well enough to know you won't budge in your opinion, and neither will I. But you want a reply? Fine:
Yes, it is a problem that you can't build a full bolter or chainsword squad from the kit because that's what some people want. It doesn't matter if it's what you want, or if it's what I want, because we aren't everyone. You can't measure the kits quality by our opinions alone, because we aren't the arbitrators of "what's good enough" for everyone else.
But since you only understand "me problems", then consider this: the kit contains no combi-weapons for the Aspiring Champion. None. And that has been an option for our Champions for ages. And as I mentioned up thread, if the option isn't in the kit, it just might not be in the datasheet with GW's current methods for writing rules. And that's definitely a problem for me, and a lot of other people who equipped their Aspiring Champions with combi-weapons to add more firepower to the squad. You need to look at these things for how they could affect the unit later down the line,
instead of just arguing for arguments sake.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/02/20 21:27:11
The CSM kit has three pretty densely packed sprues. So what do people think should have been removed to make space for the 3 extra chainsword arms, 3 extra bolt pistol arms and 2 extra pairs of boltgun arms you all seem to want?
Two boxes of CSM will let you build 10 with bolters and 10 with bolt pistol and chainsword anyway.
The new Chosen kit will usually also give you some spare boltguns, bolt pistols and/or chainswords, depending on how you kit out your actual Chosen squads (and whether you use some of the Chosen models as alternate Aspiring Champions). And then there's all the spare bolt pistols and chainswords you get in the Raptors kit if you assemble them as Warp Talons.
So, for there to be an actual problem, you have to be wanting to field a whole load of barebones CSM squads, all with the same barebones loadout (i.e. everyone with bolters or everyone with bp/cs), and no Chosen, and no Warp Talons. In any other circumstances, the fact there aren't ten of everything in the CSM kit isn't going to be an issue.
I know Gert's been a bit obnoxious about it, but he's actually right.
A little bit of righteous anger now and then is good, actually. Don't trust a person who never gets angry.
Duskweaver wrote: The CSM kit has three pretty densely packed sprues. So what do people think should have been removed to make space for the 3 extra chainsword arms, 3 extra bolt pistol arms and 2 extra pairs of boltgun arms you all seem to want?
They're not that densley packed, especially the part of the sprue with all the shoulder pads. Could've saved a fair bit of room there.
Duskweaver wrote: Two boxes of CSM will let you build 10 with bolters and 10 with bolt pistol and chainsword anyway.
Which is great and all, but we're living in a world where GW re-writes options to only account for one box. Now, to be fair, that hasn't impacted core troops units yet (to my knowledge), but can you imagine if they did? If the squad was limited to only the amount of BP/CS or Bolters on the sprue?
Emagine that expanded further, with the new Ork Boyz kit, and only letting Ork units take 3 Shootas out of every 10 models? It's that kind of thing we want to avoid, and why full suites of options make this less likely.
It continues to baffle me that there are people out there who genuinely think that fewer options and less customisability is a good thing, the goal, the desired result. Completely mystifying.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/02/21 07:44:43
I've taken out some of the more insulting bits of my posts but I don't see how I was being obnoxious considering the point I was making was almost exactly the same as yours Duskweaver.
The issue with the CSM kit is only an issue if you buy exactly one box and never buy any other CSM, hell even any SM kit, ever again. Bolters, Bolt Pistols, and Chainswords are some of the most common weapons for any sort of 40k army not just the many different flavours of SM. It is harder to not have boat loads of spares of those weapons than it is to have none.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/02/21 07:44:57
Gert wrote: I've taken out some of the more insulting bits of my posts but I don't see how I was being obnoxious
Does anyone else want to jump on the train while we're at it or do we want to stop the harassment now?
Hmm.
The issue with the CSM kit is only an issue
if you don't do things the way I think they should be done. A patrol is what 1HQ and 2 Troop minimum for a 500-point game? So, one Chaos Lord and Two CSM kits. So, you bought another CSM kit, now you have enough... oh wait.
Gert wrote: I've taken out some of the more insulting bits of my posts but I don't see how I was being obnoxious
Does anyone else want to jump on the train while we're at it or do we want to stop the harassment now?
Hmm.
The issue with the CSM kit is only an issue
if you don't do things the way I think they should be done. A patrol is what 1HQ and 2 Troop minimum for a 500-point game? So, one Chaos Lord and Two CSM kits. So, you bought another CSM kit, now you have enough... oh wait.
And if you want both squads to be all Bolters, or all Pistols/Chainswords? Say, you want to spare the points for an Obliterator or something.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
