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2022/02/19 00:12:28
Subject: 9th edition is proven to be far less externally balanced than 8th.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: It's actually funny to me that GW hasn't come down with far more draconian anti-3d printing measures. Surely they stand to lose the most money due to non-sales of minis?
That'd be almost impossible to enforce and generally not worth it. Most tournaments don't allow third party minis anyways (including 3D printing) and 3D prints are currently not good enough to be indistinguishable from real 40k sculpted minis. You can't make it illegal to print vaguely similar minis with a printer, so they really don't have much they can do that they aren't already doing.
2022/02/19 03:23:57
Subject: 9th edition is proven to be far less externally balanced than 8th.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: It's actually funny to me that GW hasn't come down with far more draconian anti-3d printing measures. Surely they stand to lose the most money due to non-sales of minis?
That'd be almost impossible to enforce and generally not worth it. Most tournaments don't allow third party minis anyways (including 3D printing) and 3D prints are currently not good enough to be indistinguishable from real 40k sculpted minis. You can't make it illegal to print vaguely similar minis with a printer, so they really don't have much they can do that they aren't already doing.
I agree more with the point “they can’t” over the point “it’s not worth it.”
First off let me say 3D printing by itself will never completely bring down GW. You’re the right that generally it’s quality isn’t up to GWs standards yet, Honestly, it may take a very long time for this to be the case without significant, individual investment. People don’t like breaking rules (even company ones) so their will always be a subset of the community that will buy official GW models.
However, your point about tournaments not allowing non-GW models is completely false. I’ve been to plenty of tournaments where someone (or many people) is/are bringing units (and sometimes whole armies) that only sorta represents the units they are portraying (many times these models look sweet btw). Wracks and grotesques are a big example I’ve personally seen of this.
Yes the people who do this often times would have bought Chinacast as well, but not all. Especially considering that Chinacast often requires you to go through sketchy websites/individuals, whereas 3rd printing does not. In addition, 3rd printing is ever cheaper than chinacast. The combination of connivence and Cheapness also becomes more and more alluring as GW continues to pass costs down to the customers. It also becomes more socially acceptable to print your models when everyone is mad at GW for raising prices. GW can withstand some people printing their models, but what happens if it’s 20% + who do so?
GW doesn’t even want the idea of this existing, especially if when 20% of this includes current model buyers. The chapterhouse lawsuit proves. The problem is part 2 of why GW should view 3rd printing as threat. They are basically powerless to stop it. The US government has tried and failed to regulate the internet. If they can’t do it, there’s no reason to think GW can. Take a down/ delete a file and it will just appear elsewhere. If 3rd printing takes off to the point where it’s hard to distinguish GW models from its, then all that’s stopping people from not buying GW’s stuff is their own Morality/ the ease of which it is to print these models. Again this is actually enough to stop a large portion of people from doing this. However, enough people doing this will sink GW.
2022/02/19 03:35:13
Subject: 9th edition is proven to be far less externally balanced than 8th.
3d printing, for all its ease of access that it has is still a very cumbersome, lengthy, and space consuming process that is not something you can just go out and easily get into and then come out ahead in a matter of a few months over just buying GW products.
Lol, keep spewing the non-sense.
2022/02/19 03:42:15
Subject: 9th edition is proven to be far less externally balanced than 8th.
3d printing, for all its ease of access that it has is still a very cumbersome, lengthy, and space consuming process that is not something you can just go out and easily get into and then come out ahead in a matter of a few months over just buying GW products.
Lol, keep spewing the non-sense.
It is when you compare it to just buying the kit you want to print.
You are also putting a LOT of faith in the average buyer/person who plays this having the knowlege to do it. Its not hard to do by what we know how to do. But remember most people still struggle with basic technology concepts.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/02/19 03:43:17
To many unpainted models to count.
2022/02/19 04:56:49
Subject: 9th edition is proven to be far less externally balanced than 8th.
3d printing, for all its ease of access that it has is still a very cumbersome, lengthy, and space consuming process that is not something you can just go out and easily get into and then come out ahead in a matter of a few months over just buying GW products.
Lol, keep spewing the non-sense.
It is when you compare it to just buying the kit you want to print.
You are also putting a LOT of faith in the average buyer/person who plays this having the knowlege to do it. Its not hard to do by what we know how to do. But remember most people still struggle with basic technology concepts.
Let's also remember that the best detailed models are printed in resin. And resin isn't a super popular material to work with.
2022/02/19 07:01:40
Subject: 9th edition is proven to be far less externally balanced than 8th.
3d printing, for all its ease of access that it has is still a very cumbersome, lengthy, and space consuming process that is not something you can just go out and easily get into and then come out ahead in a matter of a few months over just buying GW products.
Lol, keep spewing the non-sense.
It is when you compare it to just buying the kit you want to print.
You are also putting a LOT of faith in the average buyer/person who plays this having the knowlege to do it. Its not hard to do by what we know how to do. But remember most people still struggle with basic technology concepts.
Ah, and now we're adding "Most people are too stupid" to the list of nonsense.
Look, I won't deny that there's way too many stupid people drawing breath. But they generally don't play these games, so they aren't a factor.
Setting up a couple hundred $ print system, learning to use it even to moderate results, & then easily getting your $s worth out of it isn't rocket science.
2022/02/19 07:12:13
Subject: 9th edition is proven to be far less externally balanced than 8th.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: It's actually funny to me that GW hasn't come down with far more draconian anti-3d printing measures. Surely they stand to lose the most money due to non-sales of minis?
Nah not really, they have no need to because 3d printing is not an threat to GW.
When you really break it down and look at it, GW has no reason to worry about 3d printing currently like many people like to say it is and here is why.
3d printing, for all its ease of access that it has is still a very cumbersome, lengthy, and space consuming process that is not something you can just go out and easily get into and then come out ahead in a matter of a few months over just buying GW products. The other things is, look at the people who are 3d printing, they fall into 3 major groups.
Bit printers
Terrain printers
Full blown model reprints.
The first 2 groups are non issues to GW, because the bit printer groups are a market that they cant actually maintain themselves, the cost to make all the various shoulder pads, doors, helmets, special weapons is in no way possible to do on a global scale, the market for people who want a kopesh power sword for their thousand sons, or a rune marked storm shield for terminators, is not big enough to warrant them sculpting, building, stocking, shipping and making the mold for, so this is really no revenue loss to them, if anything it helps them because when people can make the models look the way they want, they would be more inclined to buy the base model from GW.
This is however a great market for OnDemand printing, which we see great success with through things like pop goes the monkey.
The second group, being terrain printers, also dont really pose an issue to GW as this again is not a market they really do anything in, and GW terrain overall has been notoriously bad/overpriced, so much so, that GW hardly even stocks the things anymore, good luck finding a bastion or an imperial bunker in the store. So really, they dont care, + they know that they cant force people to use GW terrain no matter how hard they try, imagine if GW said you had to use realm of battle boards when they existed.
Then finally the third group is the one that so many people think is going to be the down fall of GW, but it wont be. The people who invest this type of time, and money, to go out of their way to 3d print models, are the same group of people who already buy china cast, who downloads the books from mega up loads, the people who are not in the store buying paints, or brushes from GW. The main audience that are doing this are already not really GW customers, they are just changing where they are getting the product from, rather then GW, rather then China, they are just doing themselves, so GW was never really getting a profit from them any way.
The other reason why 3d printing is not a threat, is because its not reasonably fast enough to be a reasonable production threat like recasting is over in china.
The cost to get a recasting set up is far cheaper then the set up to 3dprint. Think of how long it would take you to print a single warlord titan, then think how long it takes for a re-caster to do so?
So even then, its not a threat to their production like recasting is.
It truly is a boogie man.
You forgot the most important one.
People that don't have income issues will many times buy models at the local store because doing so they support it.
The "Pay where you play" is still as strong as ever.
Personally I wouldn't feel at ease going into the store with printed or recasted models, not because they are banned, but because I would feel like leeching.
Stores are not sailing in good waters at the moment, and even when they do, they keep GW articles around more as a personal hobby than an actual commercial choice. The game takes too much store space for the bucks it brings in compared to any TCG. So if your store is supporting wargames, then you feel like you should at least do your part.
2022/02/19 07:35:10
Subject: 9th edition is proven to be far less externally balanced than 8th.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: It's actually funny to me that GW hasn't come down with far more draconian anti-3d printing measures. Surely they stand to lose the most money due to non-sales of minis?
Nah not really, they have no need to because 3d printing is not an threat to GW.
When you really break it down and look at it, GW has no reason to worry about 3d printing currently like many people like to say it is and here is why.
3d printing, for all its ease of access that it has is still a very cumbersome, lengthy, and space consuming process that is not something you can just go out and easily get into and then come out ahead in a matter of a few months over just buying GW products. The other things is, look at the people who are 3d printing, they fall into 3 major groups.
Bit printers
Terrain printers
Full blown model reprints.
The first 2 groups are non issues to GW, because the bit printer groups are a market that they cant actually maintain themselves, the cost to make all the various shoulder pads, doors, helmets, special weapons is in no way possible to do on a global scale, the market for people who want a kopesh power sword for their thousand sons, or a rune marked storm shield for terminators, is not big enough to warrant them sculpting, building, stocking, shipping and making the mold for, so this is really no revenue loss to them, if anything it helps them because when people can make the models look the way they want, they would be more inclined to buy the base model from GW.
This is however a great market for OnDemand printing, which we see great success with through things like pop goes the monkey.
The second group, being terrain printers, also dont really pose an issue to GW as this again is not a market they really do anything in, and GW terrain overall has been notoriously bad/overpriced, so much so, that GW hardly even stocks the things anymore, good luck finding a bastion or an imperial bunker in the store. So really, they dont care, + they know that they cant force people to use GW terrain no matter how hard they try, imagine if GW said you had to use realm of battle boards when they existed.
Then finally the third group is the one that so many people think is going to be the down fall of GW, but it wont be. The people who invest this type of time, and money, to go out of their way to 3d print models, are the same group of people who already buy china cast, who downloads the books from mega up loads, the people who are not in the store buying paints, or brushes from GW. The main audience that are doing this are already not really GW customers, they are just changing where they are getting the product from, rather then GW, rather then China, they are just doing themselves, so GW was never really getting a profit from them any way.
The other reason why 3d printing is not a threat, is because its not reasonably fast enough to be a reasonable production threat like recasting is over in china.
The cost to get a recasting set up is far cheaper then the set up to 3dprint. Think of how long it would take you to print a single warlord titan, then think how long it takes for a re-caster to do so?
So even then, its not a threat to their production like recasting is.
It truly is a boogie man.
You forgot the most important one.
People that don't have income issues will many times buy models at the local store because doing so they support it.
The "Pay where you play" is still as strong as ever.
Personally I wouldn't feel at ease going into the store with printed or recasted models, not because they are banned, but because I would feel like leeching.
Stores are not sailing in good waters at the moment, and even when they do, they keep GW articles around more as a personal hobby than an actual commercial choice. The game takes too much store space for the bucks it brings in compared to any TCG. So if your store is supporting wargames, then you feel like you should at least do your part.
Hell, "pay where you play" had me paying full price for years just to make sure that my FLGS kept it's doors open. 40k and MtG where the two prongs that kept it open though other games came and went too.
2022/02/19 07:59:57
Subject: 9th edition is proven to be far less externally balanced than 8th.
I agree more with the point “they can’t” over the point “it’s not worth it.”
First off let me say 3D printing by itself will never completely bring down GW. You’re the right that generally it’s quality isn’t up to GWs standards yet, Honestly, it may take a very long time for this to be the case without significant, individual investment. People don’t like breaking rules (even company ones) so their will always be a subset of the community that will buy official GW models.
However, your point about tournaments not allowing non-GW models is completely false. I’ve been to plenty of tournaments where someone (or many people) is/are bringing units (and sometimes whole armies) that only sorta represents the units they are portraying (many times these models look sweet btw). Wracks and grotesques are a big example I’ve personally seen of this.
Yes the people who do this often times would have bought Chinacast as well, but not all. Especially considering that Chinacast often requires you to go through sketchy websites/individuals, whereas 3rd printing does not. In addition, 3rd printing is ever cheaper than chinacast. The combination of connivence and Cheapness also becomes more and more alluring as GW continues to pass costs down to the customers. It also becomes more socially acceptable to print your models when everyone is mad at GW for raising prices. GW can withstand some people printing their models, but what happens if it’s 20% + who do so?
GW doesn’t even want the idea of this existing, especially if when 20% of this includes current model buyers. The chapterhouse lawsuit proves. The problem is part 2 of why GW should view 3rd printing as threat. They are basically powerless to stop it. The US government has tried and failed to regulate the internet. If they can’t do it, there’s no reason to think GW can. Take a down/ delete a file and it will just appear elsewhere. If 3rd printing takes off to the point where it’s hard to distinguish GW models from its, then all that’s stopping people from not buying GW’s stuff is their own Morality/ the ease of which it is to print these models. Again this is actually enough to stop a large portion of people from doing this. However, enough people doing this will sink GW.
Fair enough, I should have clarified that I'm going off observations of my local tournaments. It is at least *somewhat common* for tournaments, especially those run by GW stores, to require first party models.
I think it's also a fair comparison to say that, while most people own regular printers, they still typically go out and *buy books* if they want to read a physical book. I could pirate and then print out a copy of a novel at home, bind it myself, and read that, but the cost and time investment isn't worth it. I think if 3D printing did become ubiquitous and high quality it may force GW to reduce prices a little (or at least keep prices static,) but there's still a point at which the extra effort of 3D printing isn't worth the marginal amount of money saved.
2022/02/19 10:36:06
Subject: 9th edition is proven to be far less externally balanced than 8th.
Look, I won't deny that there's way too many stupid people drawing breath. But they generally don't play these games, so they aren't a factor.
Setting up a couple hundred $ print system, learning to use it even to moderate results, & then easily getting your $s worth out of it isn't rocket science.
It's not rocket science but unless we're talking about people who already have in mind to collect hundreds of miniatures, and stay in the hobby for decades, buying the originals is much simpler and not even that more expensive.
I for example know people who use 3d printers and I could learn quite easily thanks to them but to me the effort of learning how to use that stuff, all the work that printing and curing resin requires, and the final results (since to me GW miniatures are still the best looking ones) don't worth saving some money. Not up to a few hundreds over a few years at least.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/02/19 10:37:59
2022/02/19 10:40:39
Subject: 9th edition is proven to be far less externally balanced than 8th.
I think the issue with 3d printing just comes down to "why are you in this hobby to begin with".
Shouldn't say MTG have died aeons ago due to the invention of the photocopier? Shouldn't D&D have keeled over because every book they try to sell can be pirated online more or less instantly?
GW's main push is marketing. I'm not convinced the average 12 year old - or 35 year old for that matter, getting drawn in with "that looks interesting" is going to go "right, I need a 3d printer, a load of files, and get my army". They are going to enter the shop, buy a box and see where it goes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/02/19 10:41:14
2022/02/19 12:17:02
Subject: 9th edition is proven to be far less externally balanced than 8th.
Spoletta wrote: You forgot the most important one.
People that don't have income issues will many times buy models at the local store because doing so they support it.
The "Pay where you play" is still as strong as ever.
Personally I wouldn't feel at ease going into the store with printed or recasted models, not because they are banned, but because I would feel like leeching.
Stores are not sailing in good waters at the moment, and even when they do, they keep GW articles around more as a personal hobby than an actual commercial choice. The game takes too much store space for the bucks it brings in compared to any TCG. So if your store is supporting wargames, then you feel like you should at least do your part.
Hell, "pay where you play" had me paying full price for years just to make sure that my FLGS kept it's doors open. 40k and MtG where the two prongs that kept it open though other games came and went too.
Same here. For MtG, 40k, P&P books, tabletop games and hobby utensils I regularly pay more than I could have to just to support a store that is nice and helpful.
However, the stores offering 3D printing services are exploding as well, so that might change, too.
As for 3D printing being just as easy as buying models... just no. Even if you have your own printer and have already gone through the entire learning curve of how to print which models, you still have to handle a ton of issues which you never face when just buying a box of GW plastics.
I'm currently in the process of getting a custom kill rig made because I dislike GW's model and it's not even close to as little effort as just going out and buying a box.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2022/02/19 14:26:51
Subject: 9th edition is proven to be far less externally balanced than 8th.
3d printing, for all its ease of access that it has is still a very cumbersome, lengthy, and space consuming process that is not something you can just go out and easily get into and then come out ahead in a matter of a few months over just buying GW products.
Lol, keep spewing the non-sense.
It is when you compare it to just buying the kit you want to print.
You are also putting a LOT of faith in the average buyer/person who plays this having the knowlege to do it. Its not hard to do by what we know how to do. But remember most people still struggle with basic technology concepts.
Ah, and now we're adding "Most people are too stupid" to the list of nonsense.
Look, I won't deny that there's way too many stupid people drawing breath. But they generally don't play these games, so they aren't a factor.
Setting up a couple hundred $ print system, learning to use it even to moderate results, & then easily getting your $s worth out of it isn't rocket science.
Look, I'm not gonna talk about most people, I'll just talk about me.
My company bought an Ender 3 V2 more than a year ago. Three different people tried to put it together before we finally got the damn thing built. It took a 4th person to get the damn thing leveled. Then they couldn't get it to track on the X-axis. Then it needed a firmware up date. It came with instructions to put it together but none to operate it, and the downloadable PDF is not helpful.
Now we've got another consultant coming in to get it up and running. And then there will be training. So more than a year, and not a single thing printed.
Now I know that my experience is not everyone's experience. But I think you need to realize that YOUR experience is also not everyone's experience.
If someone of average computer skills were to ask me for advice about 3d printing? I'd tell them to steer clear.
And as for a resin printer? If I wanted resin models I wouldn't be wining about GW prices in the first place.
2022/02/19 17:41:35
Subject: 9th edition is proven to be far less externally balanced than 8th.
3d printing, for all its ease of access that it has is still a very cumbersome, lengthy, and space consuming process that is not something you can just go out and easily get into and then come out ahead in a matter of a few months over just buying GW products.
Lol, keep spewing the non-sense.
It is when you compare it to just buying the kit you want to print.
You are also putting a LOT of faith in the average buyer/person who plays this having the knowlege to do it. Its not hard to do by what we know how to do. But remember most people still struggle with basic technology concepts.
Ah, and now we're adding "Most people are too stupid" to the list of nonsense.
Look, I won't deny that there's way too many stupid people drawing breath. But they generally don't play these games, so they aren't a factor.
Setting up a couple hundred $ print system, learning to use it even to moderate results, & then easily getting your $s worth out of it isn't rocket science.
Stupidity =/= ignorance
Most people are ignorant when it comes to technology still. Most people still struggle with simple things like connecting a printer, this is why the IT field still is a billion dollar industry. Because while these are still simple things to us, so many many people, it is not.
Again this is very anecdotal, but, just as example, i work for possibly one of the largest entertainment companies in the USA, and considered an extremely large technology company that has billions and BILLIONs of dollars in technology and hardware across the US.
The amount of people in the company that STILL don't understand the concept of a shared drive and that saying "Yeah i lost connection to my X drive i need it back." Means nothing when you can label a shared drive what ever you want when you map it is staggering.
Its not that these people are stupid or dumb, its that they just are ignorant of how it really works.
This is the same concept in 3d printing, most people are ignorant on how to get them to work, and just like in a working environment, people will just go the path of least resistance to get what they want.
Like i said before, the people that are putting in the effort to 3d printing are already people who are going out of their way to not buy GW and get china cast.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/02/19 17:47:42
To many unpainted models to count.
2022/02/19 19:45:58
Subject: 9th edition is proven to be far less externally balanced than 8th.
This is the same concept in 3d printing, most people are ignorant on how to get them to work, and just like in a working environment, people will just go the path of least resistance to get what they want.
And let's add "Too lazy" to the list....
This is the most accurate thing you've typed yet though. Because yeah, people will just tend to go along - until they hit a certain degree of resistance. Varies by individual. Then they have to decide how (or if) to continue. And in our hobby of miniatures gaming the major points of resistance are: Cost & Availability. Mostly cost.
2022/02/19 20:36:21
Subject: 9th edition is proven to be far less externally balanced than 8th.
This is the same concept in 3d printing, most people are ignorant on how to get them to work, and just like in a working environment, people will just go the path of least resistance to get what they want.
And let's add "Too lazy" to the list....
This is the most accurate thing you've typed yet though. Because yeah, people will just tend to go along - until they hit a certain degree of resistance. Varies by individual. Then they have to decide how (or if) to continue. And in our hobby of miniatures gaming the major points of resistance are: Cost & Availability. Mostly cost.
And just like i said earlier, Path of least resistance =/= lazy
If your job is to be an accountant, and balance the books, whats more important? learning out networking and how networking drives work? or just asking IT to fix it.
If you are really big into painting more so then playing, are you lazy because you choose to just buy the model rather then work to set up a 3d prining operation in order to pint the model.
Most people do not choose to go down the path of 3d printing, just like most people do not go down the path of recasting. Recasting has been around for decades and the thing is, GW still has not been killed by it, in fact GW has been more profitable in recent years then in the past, and recasting and 3d printing has i no way slowed down if anything its sped up. So even recasting which can and does outperfom 3d printing, and is far easier to set up, is not crippling or hobbling GW, why? because its far easier to just buy the models.
The people who are getting into 3d printing models, not bits or terrain, but 3d printing existing models, are the same people who already are putting in the effort to not buy from GW.
I never said anyone was lazy, or stupid for not setting up a 3d printing set up, thats your words and i would ask you not imply im saying that, because im not.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/02/19 20:40:15
To many unpainted models to count.
2022/02/19 22:20:53
Subject: 9th edition is proven to be far less externally balanced than 8th.
My company bought an Ender 3 V2 more than a year ago. Three different people tried to put it together before we finally got the damn thing built. It took a 4th person to get the damn thing leveled. Then they couldn't get it to track on the X-axis. Then it needed a firmware up date. It came with instructions to put it together but none to operate it, and the downloadable PDF is not helpful.
Now we've got another consultant coming in to get it up and running. And then there will be training. So more than a year, and not a single thing printed.
This is gonna sound mean but when a company thinks it's a good idea to buy the most basic chinese home use entry level budget machine and by the sound of it keeps throwing more money at it than it would cost to just get a plug and play industrial grade machine... I'm not surprised nobody there is smart enough to get it working.
It's like saying cars are too complicated because you can't get a Hyundai you found at a scrap yard to run.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/02/19 22:24:38
The old meta is dead and the new meta struggles to be born. Now is the time of munchkins.
2022/02/19 22:53:06
Subject: 9th edition is proven to be far less externally balanced than 8th.
My company bought an Ender 3 V2 more than a year ago. Three different people tried to put it together before we finally got the damn thing built. It took a 4th person to get the damn thing leveled. Then they couldn't get it to track on the X-axis. Then it needed a firmware up date. It came with instructions to put it together but none to operate it, and the downloadable PDF is not helpful.
Now we've got another consultant coming in to get it up and running. And then there will be training. So more than a year, and not a single thing printed.
This is gonna sound mean but when a company thinks it's a good idea to buy the most basic chinese home use entry level budget machine and by the sound of it keeps throwing more money at it than it would cost to just get a plug and play industrial grade machine... I'm not surprised nobody there is smart enough to get it working.
It's like saying cars are too complicated because you can't get a Hyundai you found at a scrap yard to run.
Welcome to modern corporate America, this kinda thing happens literally all the damn time.
To many unpainted models to count.
2189/04/19 00:00:00
Subject: 9th edition is proven to be far less externally balanced than 8th.
when a company thinks it's a good idea to buy the most basic chinese home use entry level budget machine and by the sound of it keeps throwing more money at it than it would cost to just get a plug and play industrial grade machine... I'm not surprised nobody there is smart enough to get it working.
It's like saying cars are too complicated because you can't get a Hyundai you found at a scrap yard to run.
A post like this makes a fair number of assumptions.
You probably don't know that we are a non-profit facility that provides educational and employment services to multi-barriered individuals, and that this printer was purchased with a small grant for a particular program. And it isn't a matter of stupidity or laziness- the fact is that most of the employees are engaged in direct client service for 40-50 hours per week and that most of us were trained as educators or social workers.
Every hour spent learning to run a 3d printer is hour not spent teaching people to read or helping people find employment.
Quite frankly, had there been more open and honest discussion about how 3d-printing DOES have a steep learning curve, we might have made some different choices with the limited amount of resources at our disposal. Unfortunately, there are some very loud voices on the internet that are very enthusiastic about 3d printing, just like there are on Dakka. These folks don't always take into account that their comfort level with relatively sophisticated hardware and the software platforms required to operate it are a factor in their enthusiasm, and that without that comfort level, learning how to slice an STL might require some dedicated professional development time.
I appreciate the disclaimer, and it does take some of the snark out of the post, which I'm sure was your intention.
For the record, it doesn't go as far as actually re-thinking the post and phrasing it in a way that doesn't sound mean... But it's a start, so thanks for that.
2022/02/20 00:46:43
Subject: 9th edition is proven to be far less externally balanced than 8th.
PenitentJake wrote: Look, I'm not gonna talk about most people, I'll just talk about me.
My company bought an Ender 3 V2 more than a year ago. Three different people tried to put it together before we finally got the damn thing built. It took a 4th person to get the damn thing leveled. Then they couldn't get it to track on the X-axis. Then it needed a firmware up date. It came with instructions to put it together but none to operate it, and the downloadable PDF is not helpful.
Now we've got another consultant coming in to get it up and running. And then there will be training. So more than a year, and not a single thing printed.
Now I know that my experience is not everyone's experience. But I think you need to realize that YOUR experience is also not everyone's experience.
If someone of average computer skills were to ask me for advice about 3d printing? I'd tell them to steer clear.
And as for a resin printer? If I wanted resin models I wouldn't be wining about GW prices in the first place.
Not all printers are the same. I bought a $150 resin printer and had these in a couple of days. No assembly needed, zero knowledge of 3D sculpting, I just started with reference settings from Google and followed the instructions on calibration. With the amount of reference material on the Internet (and files for download without needing to learn to work with .stls), it was by far easier to learn how to 3D print than it was to learn to paint when I first started painting in the mid-00s.
Plus, this hobby already has a non-negligible skill baseline when it comes to assembling and painting models, let alone learning the rules. If you can learn to play 9th Edition Warhammer 40,000 with all the bells and whistles, you absolutely can learn to operate a 3D printer.
Frankly, I don't think GW needs to be worried about Dakka's grognards buying printers en-masse. They need to be more worried about Etsy shops providing the printing services while significantly undercutting GW's prices, and kids and college students with more time than disposable income deciding that getting models for pennies might be worth the learning curve.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/02/20 00:50:22
PenitentJake wrote: Look, I'm not gonna talk about most people, I'll just talk about me.
My company bought an Ender 3 V2 more than a year ago. Three different people tried to put it together before we finally got the damn thing built. It took a 4th person to get the damn thing leveled. Then they couldn't get it to track on the X-axis. Then it needed a firmware up date. It came with instructions to put it together but none to operate it, and the downloadable PDF is not helpful.
Now we've got another consultant coming in to get it up and running. And then there will be training. So more than a year, and not a single thing printed.
Now I know that my experience is not everyone's experience. But I think you need to realize that YOUR experience is also not everyone's experience.
If someone of average computer skills were to ask me for advice about 3d printing? I'd tell them to steer clear.
And as for a resin printer? If I wanted resin models I wouldn't be wining about GW prices in the first place.
Not all printers are the same. I bought a $150 resin printer and had these in a couple of days. No assembly needed, zero knowledge of 3D sculpting, I just started with reference settings from Google and followed the instructions on calibration. With the amount of reference material on the Internet (and files for download without needing to learn to work with .stls), it was by far easier to learn how to 3D print than it was to learn to paint when I first started painting in the mid-00s.
Plus, this hobby already has a non-negligible skill baseline when it comes to assembling and painting models, let alone learning the rules. If you can learn to play 9th Edition Warhammer 40,000 with all the bells and whistles, you absolutely can learn to operate a 3D printer.
Frankly, I don't think GW needs to be worried about Dakka's grognards buying printers en-masse. They need to be more worried about Etsy shops providing the printing services while significantly undercutting GW's prices, and kids and college students with more time than disposable income deciding that getting models for pennies might be worth the learning curve.
Well and that kinda goes back to what i originally posted.
People printing full blown models that are direct coppies, yeah GW needs to shut down, and usually dose.
But bit makers, and terrain makers? GW has no real feasiable way to take up this market, so its a non threat to them because its a market they are not even in.
Do you really think GW is going to spend the effort to make bits like rune marked shields, kopeshes, or other specifically themed weapons that are bought by a subset of the consumer base?
Or are they just gonna let someone print on demand these bits that they have no real way to market at profit.
To many unpainted models to count.
2022/02/20 02:23:19
Subject: 9th edition is proven to be far less externally balanced than 8th.
Backspacehacker wrote: People printing full blown models that are direct coppies, yeah GW needs to shut down, and usually dose.
Not in the US. You can print whatever you want in your own garage.
Yes but you cant sell them, and before you again say "Well they will just sell them outta their garage."
These again are the same people that GW arnt making money off of anyway, these are the same people buying china cast already.
To many unpainted models to count.
2022/02/20 11:56:51
Subject: 9th edition is proven to be far less externally balanced than 8th.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: It's actually funny to me that GW hasn't come down with far more draconian anti-3d printing measures. Surely they stand to lose the most money due to non-sales of minis?
Most tournaments don't allow third party minis anyways (including 3D printing)
Citation needed. Complete and utter hogwash there mate.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/02/20 11:57:02
Games Workshop Delenda Est.
Users on ignore- 53.
If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them.
2022/02/20 12:17:38
Subject: 9th edition is proven to be far less externally balanced than 8th.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: It's actually funny to me that GW hasn't come down with far more draconian anti-3d printing measures. Surely they stand to lose the most money due to non-sales of minis?
Most tournaments don't allow third party minis anyways (including 3D printing)
Citation needed. Complete and utter hogwash there mate.
Since I already responded to this exact point earlier today, I'll just quote my response there:
Fair enough, I should have clarified that I'm going off observations of my local tournaments. It is at least *somewhat common* for tournaments, especially those run by GW stores, to require first party models.
2022/02/20 12:48:34
Subject: 9th edition is proven to be far less externally balanced than 8th.
Gert wrote: Good to see if you disagree that 3d printing is God's gift you get slammed for it. Way to be mature guys.
Sadly an all too common thing I've run into. I once mentioned I didn't want to get a resin printer because I live in a small apartment and don't have a good way to print things without soaking my lungs in resin fumes only to be told off that the fumes aren't a "real problem".
Yeah, no. I've had a bad lung infection years ago and that made me very sensitive to fumes from basically anything so even if resin fumes aren't dangerous to my health I'm still not messing around with that.
stupid people drawing breath. But they generally don't play these games, so they aren't a factor.
