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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/02/21 09:08:24
Subject: Kellmorph Gunslinger & Self Crossfire?
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Bounding Dark Angels Assault Marine
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This one is odd - The Kellermorph has a rule (Gunslinger) that says:
Each time this model makes a ranged attack, if a hit is scored, after this model makes the rest of its ranged attacks, this model can make 1 additional ranged attack against the same target using the same weapon. This additional ranged attack cannot generate any further additional ranged attacks.
The Kellermorph also has the Crossfire rule from the GSC codex that says:
In your Shooting phase, each time a CROSSFIRE unit is selected to shoot, if all of those attacks target one enemy unit without a crossfire marker, after resolving those attacks, the target gains a crossfire marker if any of the following conditions were satisfied:
Five or more of those attacks scored a hit.
One or more of those attacks with a Damage characteristic other than 1 scored a hit.
At the end of your turn, remove all crossfire markers enemy units have.
What's tripping me up is that the Gunslinger rule is explicit about "after the model makes the rest of its ranged attacks" - Does that allow you to Fire off normal attacks, apply crossfire (if the rules are satisfied) & then fire the bonus attacks from Gunslinger into the unit with a crossfire marker?
Edit - Actually weirder, because the "make attacks" page goes through to inflict damage step. I dont think this should be doable, but i cant see an actual rules reason why it isnt...
It seems like you probably shouldn't be able to and you can just fastroll the extra hits and get on with your life as it doesnt say "resolve the rest of its attacks attacks" just "make". Is there something specific in the rules for bonus attacks that forbids this, or maybe general shooting rules?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/02/21 09:40:46
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/02/21 09:47:49
Subject: Kellmorph Gunslinger & Self Crossfire?
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Never Forget Isstvan!
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no, he wouldnt get crossfire from his own shooting since all his attacks are happening at the same time.
If he had a rule that allowed him to shoot AGAIN or shoot TWICE then he would grant himself crossfire.
All his rule does is grant additional hit rolls for every hit he makes (similar to exploding 6's only his work on all his hits).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/02/21 10:25:24
Subject: Kellmorph Gunslinger & Self Crossfire?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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He would apply a cross fire marker, but I believe cross fire BENEFIT is triggered when you select a unit to shoot , which he already has been before there is a marker. For clarity you need to show us the benefit portion.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/02/21 10:56:10
Subject: Kellmorph Gunslinger & Self Crossfire?
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Bounding Dark Angels Assault Marine
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nosferatu1001 wrote:He would apply a cross fire marker, but I believe cross fire BENEFIT is triggered when you select a unit to shoot , which he already has been before there is a marker. For clarity you need to show us the benefit portion.
Each time a CROSSFIRE model makes a ranged attack, if the target unit has a crossfire marker, add 1 to that attack’s hit roll.
Each time a CROSSFIRE model makes a ranged attack, if the target unit has a crossfire marker and was Exposed when it was selected as the target (see below), add 1 to that attack’s wound roll.
Each time a CROSSFIRE model makes a ranged attack, if the target unit has a crossfire marker, was Exposed when it was selected as the target, and was within 12" when it was selected as the target, the target does not receive the benefits of cover against that attack.
Exposed says -
To determine if a target unit is Exposed, draw a line from any part of the base (or hull) of one model in the attacking CROSSFIRE unit to any part of the base (or hull) of one model in another friendly CROSSFIRE unit that is visible to that model (as shown in the diagrams below). The target unit is Exposed if both of the following conditions are satisfied:
That line passes over any part of the base (or hull) of one or more models in the target unit.
That line does not pass over a terrain feature with the Obscuring terrain trait (unless those CROSSFIRE units or the target unit are on or within that terrain feature, or the target unit could still be targeted even if a terrain feature with the Obscuring terrain trait was between it and an attacking model, e.g. it is an AIRCRAFT unit, it has a Wounds characteristic of 18 or more, etc.).
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/02/21 11:02:03
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/02/21 12:19:06
Subject: Kellmorph Gunslinger & Self Crossfire?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Looks to me like he wouldn't get the benefit as the Crossfire marker didn't exist when the target was selected, which is the trigger to get the benefits.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/02/21 13:12:50
Subject: Kellmorph Gunslinger & Self Crossfire?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Slipspace wrote:Looks to me like he wouldn't get the benefit as the Crossfire marker didn't exist when the target was selected, which is the trigger to get the benefits.
I would disagree
"Each time...." and "has a crossfire marker" are all present, continuing tense.
Every time you make a ranged attack - and each pistol shot is resolved individually and is its own attack - you check if the target unit HAS a crossfire marker. It is not a check performed solely at the target unit step.
If the KM hits five times, the unit now HAS a cross fire marker and so you trigger the effect
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/02/21 13:25:06
Subject: Kellmorph Gunslinger & Self Crossfire?
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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nosferatu1001 wrote:Slipspace wrote:Looks to me like he wouldn't get the benefit as the Crossfire marker didn't exist when the target was selected, which is the trigger to get the benefits.
I would disagree
"Each time...." and "has a crossfire marker" are all present, continuing tense.
Every time you make a ranged attack - and each pistol shot is resolved individually and is its own attack - you check if the target unit HAS a crossfire marker. It is not a check performed solely at the target unit step.
If the KM hits five times, the unit now HAS a cross fire marker and so you trigger the effect
But the rule says "after resolving those attacks, the target gains a crossfire marker" right?
Wouldn't the enemy unit without a crossfire marker only gain one after the CROSSFIRE unit has resolved its attacks?
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/02/21 13:38:15
Subject: Kellmorph Gunslinger & Self Crossfire?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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" if all of those attacks target one enemy unit without a crossfire marker, after resolving those attacks"
At the time the KM fires, it fires al of its attacks at the unit.
Any additional attacks it gains from hitting the target do not exist at the time it is selected to fire
After resolving THOSE attacks it gains the marker
THOSE attacks can only refer to the original KM attacks
As the timing for the KM extra attacks are also the same x after these attacks - you as active player can force the marker to appear first.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/02/21 14:32:24
Subject: Kellmorph Gunslinger & Self Crossfire?
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Nihilistic Necron Lord
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Eihnlazer wrote:no, he wouldnt get crossfire from his own shooting since all his attacks are happening at the same time.
I always see this repeated over and over. Citation please.
I dont see anything in the rules that says all attacks happen at the same time. Its not possible for all his attacks to happen at the same time, because nothing in 40k can happen at the same time. If two or more rules would happen at the same time, sequencing kicks in, and the players whose turn it is decides the order how to resolve those rules. A sequence is a particular order in which related things follow each other, there is something happening first, and then something else happening second, and so on.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/02/21 15:02:48
Subject: Kellmorph Gunslinger & Self Crossfire?
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Bounding Dark Angels Assault Marine
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nosferatu1001 wrote:" if all of those attacks target one enemy unit without a crossfire marker, after resolving those attacks"
At the time the KM fires, it fires al of its attacks at the unit.
Any additional attacks it gains from hitting the target do not exist at the time it is selected to fire
After resolving THOSE attacks it gains the marker
THOSE attacks can only refer to the original KM attacks
As the timing for the KM extra attacks are also the same x after these attacks - you as active player can force the marker to appear first.
This is how I read it as well RAW - I don’t think I’d attempt to play it this way in a game though as it would be way too contentious. Is there any vaguely reliable way of asking the good folks at GW to FAQ something?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/02/21 15:12:54
Subject: Re:Kellmorph Gunslinger & Self Crossfire?
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Confessor Of Sins
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Rules questions can be sent to 40kFAQ@gwplc.com for hopeful inclusion in a future FAQ. Do not expect a direct answer from the rules team.
I concur with the reading that the RAW applies the Crossfire token after the Kellermorph executes it's initial attacks, assuming it gets 5 hits, and before those gained from Gunslinger. GW picked the odd decision to apply the token after "those attacks" rather than after the unit executes all its shooting attacks.
That being said, the rules for Crossfire allow the Kellermorph to gain the +1 to Hit and the +1 to Wound if the target is Exposed, but not the ignore cover rule since that require it to have been Exposed when the unit was selected as a target.
However, I would expect GW to rule against this in general.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/02/21 17:32:40
Subject: Re:Kellmorph Gunslinger & Self Crossfire?
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Bounding Dark Angels Assault Marine
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alextroy wrote:Rules questions can be sent to 40kFAQ@gwplc.com for hopeful inclusion in a future FAQ. Do not expect a direct answer from the rules team.
I concur with the reading that the RAW applies the Crossfire token after the Kellermorph executes it's initial attacks, assuming it gets 5 hits, and before those gained from Gunslinger. GW picked the odd decision to apply the token after "those attacks" rather than after the unit executes all its shooting attacks.
That being said, the rules for Crossfire allow the Kellermorph to gain the +1 to Hit and the +1 to Wound if the target is Exposed, but not the ignore cover rule since that require it to have been Exposed when the unit was selected as a target.
However, I would expect GW to rule against this in general.
Yeah I 100% agree with what you wrote - I don’t think it’s intended, but the extra hit rule is written in a strange way - c.f. vengeful arbiter rules that say “immediately”.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/02/21 20:06:44
Subject: Kellmorph Gunslinger & Self Crossfire?
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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nosferatu1001 wrote:" if all of those attacks target one enemy unit without a crossfire marker, after resolving those attacks"
At the time the KM fires, it fires al of its attacks at the unit.
Any additional attacks it gains from hitting the target do not exist at the time it is selected to fire
After resolving THOSE attacks it gains the marker
THOSE attacks can only refer to the original KM attacks
As the timing for the KM extra attacks are also the same x after these attacks - you as active player can force the marker to appear first.
"In your Shooting phase, each time a CROSSFIRE unit is selected to shoot, if all of those attacks target one enemy unit without a crossfire marker, after resolving those attacks, the target gains a crossfire marker if any of the following conditions were satisfied..."
"those attacks" refer to all attacks that "target one enemy unit without a crossfire marker"
The rule says "all of those attacks", which can be also written as [all of that unit's attacks], or [all of those attacks from the unit that was selected to shoot].
If you attack with a unit, and it has not completed all of its attacks, then it can not get a marker.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/02/21 21:38:39
Subject: Kellmorph Gunslinger & Self Crossfire?
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Never Forget Isstvan!
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deathreaper is correct and it is basically exactly what i said only in a more detailed manor.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/02/22 06:30:52
Subject: Re:Kellmorph Gunslinger & Self Crossfire?
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Confessor Of Sins
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I must disagree. "those attacks" refers to the attacks the unit assigned when it was chosen to attack. That is different and distinct from "the unit's attacks" which can be added to during the course of resolving "those attacks". If GW had used "the unit's attacks" instead of "those attack" we wouldn't be having this conversation.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/02/22 08:50:39
Subject: Kellmorph Gunslinger & Self Crossfire?
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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This seems ripe for the 2-wk FAQ so I wouldn’t plan your wombo combos around it just yet. Write to the FAQ hotline instead.
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Stormonu wrote:For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/02/22 08:52:32
Subject: Kellmorph Gunslinger & Self Crossfire?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Dr, again, I disagree. At the time the unit is selected to shoot, how many attacks does it have? All of those attacks are directed at the unit. Say it's 5. I can't recall if that's how many the km has at base.
A UNIT is only selected to shoot ONCE, as per the shooting rules.
At the time it is selected, all of those attacks - all 5 - WERE ASSIGNED to the single unit in question.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/02/22 12:56:28
Subject: Kellmorph Gunslinger & Self Crossfire?
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Confessor Of Sins
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For the record, the Kellermoprh is armed with 3 Pistol 2 weapons. So a silly 6 BS 2+ attacks that generate additional BS 2+ attacks on a hit.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/02/22 13:50:20
Subject: Kellmorph Gunslinger & Self Crossfire?
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Lieutenant General
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JohnnyHell wrote:This seems ripe for the 2-wk FAQ so I wouldn’t plan your wombo combos around it just yet. Write to the FAQ hotline instead.
Note that the initial FAQ comes out after four weeks. From Warhammer Community:
A note about FAQs: We’ll be publishing the first FAQ for new battletomes and codexes four weeks after the book arrives, instead of two, moving forward. This gives the Studio team a little more time to collect feedback and make sure they’re not missing anything. This includes the new Space Marines and Necrons codexes.
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'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/02/22 13:51:55
Subject: Kellmorph Gunslinger & Self Crossfire?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Ghaz wrote: JohnnyHell wrote:This seems ripe for the 2-wk FAQ so I wouldn’t plan your wombo combos around it just yet. Write to the FAQ hotline instead.
Note that the initial FAQ comes out after four weeks. From Warhammer Community:
A note about FAQs: We’ll be publishing the first FAQ for new battletomes and codexes four weeks after the book arrives, instead of two, moving forward. This gives the Studio team a little more time to collect feedback and make sure they’re not missing anything. This includes the new Space Marines and Necrons codexes.
It's also just come out and this hasn't been addressed.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/02/22 14:55:32
Subject: Kellmorph Gunslinger & Self Crossfire?
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Bounding Dark Angels Assault Marine
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Ill chuck it at them and see if anything happens with it - Its one of those things where you can make a decent arguement either direction so seems like it should probably get FAQ'd. Here's hoping!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/02/22 14:55:39
Subject: Kellmorph Gunslinger & Self Crossfire?
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Confessor Of Sins
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This is pretty niche, so may not have been raised onto their radar.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/02/22 19:13:20
Subject: Kellmorph Gunslinger & Self Crossfire?
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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nosferatu1001 wrote:Dr, again, I disagree. At the time the unit is selected to shoot, how many attacks does it have?
It depends on what weapons' it is shooting and what targets it selects.
You start by selecting an eligible unit to shoot with. This happens before you select any targets and determine attacks that unit will make against its targets.
You can disagree, but we do not know how many attacks that unit is going to put downrange at the time the unit is selected to shoot, and that is a fact.
""In your Shooting phase, each time a CROSSFIRE unit is selected to shoot, if all of those attacks..."
"all of those attacks", in this context, can only mean any and all attacks from the selected "CROSSFIRE unit" and not "the attacks the unit assigned" because the unit did not assign any attacks at that point.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/02/28 05:01:14
Subject: Re:Kellmorph Gunslinger & Self Crossfire?
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Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard
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alextroy wrote:Rules questions can be sent to 40kFAQ@gwplc.com for hopeful inclusion in a future FAQ. Do not expect a direct answer from the rules team.
I concur with the reading that the RAW applies the Crossfire token after the Kellermorph executes it's initial attacks, assuming it gets 5 hits, and before those gained from Gunslinger. GW picked the odd decision to apply the token after "those attacks" rather than after the unit executes all its shooting attacks.
That being said, the rules for Crossfire allow the Kellermorph to gain the +1 to Hit and the +1 to Wound if the target is Exposed, but not the ignore cover rule since that require it to have been Exposed when the unit was selected as a target.
However, I would expect GW to rule against this in general.
So assuming a streak of luck, a 10 man Hybrid squad gets Crossfire halfway through? They don't all attack at the same time, you just CAN for fast rolling. If you choose not to fast roll, any squad members after the 5 hits....
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My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/02/28 05:22:05
Subject: Kellmorph Gunslinger & Self Crossfire?
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Confessor Of Sins
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Breton wrote: alextroy wrote:Rules questions can be sent to 40kFAQ@gwplc.com for hopeful inclusion in a future FAQ. Do not expect a direct answer from the rules team.
I concur with the reading that the RAW applies the Crossfire token after the Kellermorph executes it's initial attacks, assuming it gets 5 hits, and before those gained from Gunslinger. GW picked the odd decision to apply the token after "those attacks" rather than after the unit executes all its shooting attacks.
That being said, the rules for Crossfire allow the Kellermorph to gain the +1 to Hit and the +1 to Wound if the target is Exposed, but not the ignore cover rule since that require it to have been Exposed when the unit was selected as a target.
However, I would expect GW to rule against this in general.
So assuming a streak of luck, a 10 man Hybrid squad gets Crossfire halfway through? They don't all attack at the same time, you just CAN for fast rolling. If you choose not to fast roll, any squad members after the 5 hits....
No. The rule is "In your Shooting phase, each time a CROSSFIRE unit is selected to shoot, if all of those attacks target one enemy unit without a crossfire marker, after resolving those attacks, the target gains a crossfire marker if any of the following conditions were satisfied..." Therefore, you must resolve all the attacks you declared at the declare target stage of the unit's shooting attack before the crossfire marker it placed.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/02/28 06:09:12
Subject: Kellmorph Gunslinger & Self Crossfire?
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Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard
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alextroy wrote:Breton wrote: alextroy wrote:Rules questions can be sent to 40kFAQ@gwplc.com for hopeful inclusion in a future FAQ. Do not expect a direct answer from the rules team.
I concur with the reading that the RAW applies the Crossfire token after the Kellermorph executes it's initial attacks, assuming it gets 5 hits, and before those gained from Gunslinger. GW picked the odd decision to apply the token after "those attacks" rather than after the unit executes all its shooting attacks.
That being said, the rules for Crossfire allow the Kellermorph to gain the +1 to Hit and the +1 to Wound if the target is Exposed, but not the ignore cover rule since that require it to have been Exposed when the unit was selected as a target.
However, I would expect GW to rule against this in general.
So assuming a streak of luck, a 10 man Hybrid squad gets Crossfire halfway through? They don't all attack at the same time, you just CAN for fast rolling. If you choose not to fast roll, any squad members after the 5 hits....
No. The rule is "In your Shooting phase, each time a CROSSFIRE unit is selected to shoot, if all of those attacks target one enemy unit without a crossfire marker, after resolving those attacks, the target gains a crossfire marker if any of the following conditions were satisfied..." Therefore, you must resolve all the attacks you declared at the declare target stage of the unit's shooting attack before the crossfire marker it placed.
So the Kellermorph has to be selected to shoot again to shoot the bonus attacks? It seems to me if this is a new round of shooting after a pause to create the Crossfire marker, he has to be selected again but the rules don't allow that. If those bonus attacks are part of "all those attacks" there's no pause to create a Crossfire marker. I tend to believe there's no pause
Each time this model makes a ranged attack, if a hit is scored, after this model makes the rest of its ranged attacks, this model can make 1 additional ranged attack against the same target using the same weapon. This additional ranged attack cannot generate any further additional ranged attacks.
In your Shooting phase, each time a CROSSFIRE unit is selected to shoot, if all of those attacks target one enemy unit without a crossfire marker, after resolving those attacks
Bonus Attacks sound like they are part of "all of those attacks" and have to be resolved first. The Shoot Again rules also imply bonus attacks are part of the same shooting action, and not a "Shoot Again" situation. Shoot again must fully complete the first shooting attack and can target different units.
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My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/03/01 05:35:49
Subject: Re:Kellmorph Gunslinger & Self Crossfire?
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Confessor Of Sins
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I must refer you to the earlier part of this thread. The Kellermorph's Gunslinger rule has very odd wording to it that interacts with the rather odd wording of Crossfire to provide what I would call a counterintuitive effect. I doubt there is another unit in the codex that has such an odd interaction possible, but I'm no GSC player.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/03/01 08:18:49
Subject: Re:Kellmorph Gunslinger & Self Crossfire?
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Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard
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alextroy wrote:I must refer you to the earlier part of this thread. The Kellermorph's Gunslinger rule has very odd wording to it that interacts with the rather odd wording of Crossfire to provide what I would call a counterintuitive effect. I doubt there is another unit in the codex that has such an odd interaction possible, but I'm no GSC player.
And the odd wording doesn't include shoot again. It says make more attacks.
after this model makes the rest of its ranged attacks, this model can make 1 additional ranged attack
And Crossfire itself says All in it
if all of those attacks target one enemy unit without a crossfire marker, after resolving those attacks,
All attacks have to target one enemy (without a marker) and those (referring to All of those attacks) attacks have to be resolved. If you haven't resolved the bonus attacks you haven't resolved (again referring to all) those attacks.
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My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/03/01 14:13:56
Subject: Kellmorph Gunslinger & Self Crossfire?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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When it was selected to shoot you had 6 attacks... you've resolved all those attacks.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/03/01 18:05:52
Subject: Kellmorph Gunslinger & Self Crossfire?
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Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard
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nosferatu1001 wrote: When it was selected to shoot you had 6 attacks... you've resolved all those attacks.
And now (theoretically) you have more attacks to resolve. You have to resolve all of the attacks before assigning the marker. The rule doesn't say all of the attacks you declared; it says all of the attacks.
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My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. |
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