Switch Theme:

Kellmorph Gunslinger & Self Crossfire?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




...that, in context, existed when you selected the unit to,shoot.
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins





Tacoma, WA, USA

Breton wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
When it was selected to shoot you had 6 attacks... you've resolved all those attacks.


And now (theoretically) you have more attacks to resolve. You have to resolve all of the attacks before assigning the marker. The rule doesn't say all of the attacks you declared; it says all of the attacks.
Let's go back to both rules, nicely provided by the OP:
Eeps wrote:The Kellermorph has a rule (Gunslinger) that says:

Each time this model makes a ranged attack, if a hit is scored, after this model makes the rest of its ranged attacks, this model can make 1 additional ranged attack against the same target using the same weapon. This additional ranged attack cannot generate any further additional ranged attacks.

The Kellermorph also has the Crossfire rule from the GSC codex that says:

In your Shooting phase, each time a CROSSFIRE unit is selected to shoot, if all of those attacks target one enemy unit without a crossfire marker, after resolving those attacks, the target gains a crossfire marker if any of the following conditions were satisfied:
  • Five or more of those attacks scored a hit.

  • One or more of those attacks with a Damage characteristic other than 1 scored a hit.

  • At the end of your turn, remove all crossfire markers enemy units have.
    I've highlighted in red the rule that lead to the odd interaction of the Kellermorph making his original attacks and then perhaps place a Crossfire token before resolving his additional attacks.

    In more cases, if you gain an additional attack you make that attack immediately. That is not the case here. You are specifically told to save those attacks until you have resolve all your other shooting attacks.

    Conversely, Crossfire says if you opt to have all your attacks allocated to one target, once you resolve those attacks, if you see the required conditions, a Crossfire token is placed on the target unit. They didn't say after you resolve the unit's shooting attacks, but rather they said those attacks, which are the one you choose to assign to the unit when you elected to shoot.

    Both of these rules are IMHO oddly written. I can't see any reason to delay the Kellermoph's additional attacks until after all his other shooting attacks have been resolved, but there it is. I also don't understand why Crossfire doesn't place the Crossfire token after the unit resolves it's shooting attacks rather than those attacks. I get the feeling GW went overboard on technical language and mess the entire thing up.

       
    Made in us
    Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard





     alextroy wrote:
    Let's go back to both rules, nicely provided by the OP:

    if all of those attacks target one enemy unit without a crossfire marker, after resolving those attacks,

    Ahem. You have skipped over the word "all" again. all of those attacks that result from each time a CROSSFIRE unit is selected to shoot have to target one unit, AND those attacks have to be resolved before placing the marker.

    My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
       
    Made in gb
    Decrepit Dakkanaut




    Yes, and when you selected the unit to shoot, once, it had 6 attacks. At the time you selected them to shoot, all those 6 attacks have been allocated.
       
    Made in us
    Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard





    nosferatu1001 wrote:
    Yes, and when you selected the unit to shoot, once, it had 6 attacks. At the time you selected them to shoot, all those 6 attacks have been allocated.


    Does it still have bonus attacks left to make? Did those bonus attacks result from being selected to shoot (and getting hits)? Have they been resolved?
    Also the shooting section says nothing about only resolving the attacks you declared:
    When you select a unit to shoot with, you select targets and resolve attacks with any or all ranged weapons that models in that unit are equipped with (each ranged weapon can only be shot once per phase). The ranged weapons that models in a unit are equipped with are detailed on its datasheet.


    It says you resolve attacks with any or all weapons. So keep resolving.

    My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
       
    Made in gb
    Longtime Dakkanaut




    nosferatu1001 wrote:
    Yes, and when you selected the unit to shoot, once, it had 6 attacks. At the time you selected them to shoot, all those 6 attacks have been allocated.


    I don't think that's relevant. The rule doesn't say "all attacks on your profile" or "all attacks except bonus attacks". It simply says "all attacks". If you still have attacks to resolve after firing the first batch, you haven't resolved all the attacks.
       
    Made in gb
    Decrepit Dakkanaut




    All those attacks...
    Those has a time sensitive context

    At the time you select the unit to shoot, it has no bonus attacks.
       
    Made in us
    Confessor Of Sins





    Tacoma, WA, USA

    Breton wrote:
    nosferatu1001 wrote:
    Yes, and when you selected the unit to shoot, once, it had 6 attacks. At the time you selected them to shoot, all those 6 attacks have been allocated.

    Does it still have bonus attacks left to make?
    Yes. But they are not one of those attacks they assigned to the unit when they were selected to make a shooting attack. They are bonus attacks that cannot be resolved until after the unit resolve all other shooting attacks.
    Did those bonus attacks result from being selected to shoot (and getting hits)?
    Yes, but they still aren't those attacks, which have been completed.
    Have they been resolved?
    The bonus attacks have not, but those attacks have.
    Also the shooting section says nothing about only resolving the attacks you declared:
    When you select a unit to shoot with, you select targets and resolve attacks with any or all ranged weapons that models in that unit are equipped with (each ranged weapon can only be shot once per phase). The ranged weapons that models in a unit are equipped with are detailed on its datasheet.

    It says you resolve attacks with any or all weapons. So keep resolving.
    I see no relevance. The Kellermorph will continue to resolve all his shooting attacks including his bonus attacks, just after checking to see and if eligible placing his Crossfire token.

    There is no rule against things happening during the resolution of a unit's shooting attacks. Markerlights tokens used to get placed during the course of a unit's shooting attacks, allowing a unit to place and then benefit from a Markerlight token. Light Cover eligbility is checked with every save, allowing a unit to go from not having benefits of cover to having benefits of cover while resolving a unit's shooting attacks.
       
    Made in us
    Captain of the Forlorn Hope





    Chicago, IL

     alextroy wrote:
    Breton wrote:Does it still have bonus attacks left to make?
    Yes. But they are not one of those attacks they assigned to the unit when they were selected to make a shooting attack.
    Except that you do not assign attacks when you select a unit to shoot, that comes later.

    "Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

    I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

    We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
     
       
    Made in gb
    Decrepit Dakkanaut




     DeathReaper wrote:
     alextroy wrote:
    Breton wrote:Does it still have bonus attacks left to make?
    Yes. But they are not one of those attacks they assigned to the unit when they were selected to make a shooting attack.
    Except that you do not assign attacks when you select a unit to shoot, that comes later.

    Nobody said that's when you assign. Just that when you select the unit to shoot, which is once and once only, "all those attacks" cannot include attacks that don't even exist , so in context refers to the attacks the unit is currently able to make.
       
    Made in us
    Captain of the Forlorn Hope





    Chicago, IL

    nosferatu1001 wrote:
    Nobody said that's when you assign.
    Maybe want to rethink that statement?

     alextroy wrote:
    ...But they are not one of those attacks they assigned to the unit when they were selected to make a shooting attack.

    alextroy literally just said this.

    This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/03/03 09:25:13


    "Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

    I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

    We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
     
       
    Made in gb
    Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





    Cardiff

    Just house rule it for your games and move on folks. Email GW for FAQ. Seems entirely ambiguous as to intent/application, so you’ll just argue until mod warnings and thread lock. Don’t do that!

     Stormonu wrote:
    For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
     
       
    Made in gb
    Decrepit Dakkanaut




    Ok, so what about the context?
    How many bonus attacks exist when the unit was selected to shoot?
       
    Made in us
    Captain of the Forlorn Hope





    Chicago, IL

    nosferatu1001 wrote:
    Ok, so what about the context?
    How many bonus attacks exist when the unit was selected to shoot?
    This literally doesn't matter.

    The rule says "In your Shooting phase, each time a CROSSFIRE unit is selected to shoot, if all of those attacks target one enemy unit without a crossfire marker, after resolving those attacks, the target gains a crossfire marker if any of the following conditions were satisfied:"

    The enemy unit without a crossfire marker only gains one after the CROSSFIRE unit has resolved its attacks.

    Because "...each time a CROSSFIRE unit is selected to shoot, if all of those attacks..." can only refer to any attacks that "target one enemy unit without a crossfire marker" from said unit, as you do not allocate any attacks when you select a unit to shoot.



    "Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

    I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

    We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
     
       
    Made in us
    Longtime Dakkanaut





    The kelermorph has unusual rules but it doesn't actually have a rule that lets it be selected to shoot a second time, it has a rule that generates additional attacks after it makes it's attacks.

    For crossfire it calls out "In your Shooting phase, each time a CROSSFIRE unit is selected to shoot, if all of those attacks target one enemy unit without a crossfire marker, after resolving those attacks,.."

    As there is no clear permission that you are selecting the kelermorph to shoot again, you are not selecting the kelermorph to shoot again when you resolve the additional attacks.

    The crossfire rule also calls out "all attacks" and "resolving those attacks". If the additional kelermorph shots are part of the same activation they would fall under "all attacks" and "resolving those attacks" would have to happen before placing the crossfire marker.

    So as written if the kelermorph additional attacks are not a second activation, it would not be able to place a crossfire marker between it's normal attacks and additional attacks.

    And lastly the kelermorph additional attacks are not a second activation as you are not selecting the unit to shoot again, so RAW this is not possible.


    This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/03/13 17:36:49


     
       
     
    Forum Index » 40K You Make Da Call
    Go to: