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 carldooley wrote:
This whole thread is hilarity itself...
'We should give Space Marines a second wound to reflect on the tabletop the resiliency of Space Marines in the fluff.'

'We need more deadly weapons to deal with the 2W Space Marines.'

'Space Marines no longer hit like they used to. Let's make their bog standard weapons more deadly.'

Is anyone willing to consider that this upward spiral of damage and lethality can be laid squarely at the feet of those same people who wanted Space Marines to be more durable?

After all, it isn't like Space Marines should demean themselves on the tabletop by using cover, when THEIR BEST ARMOR IS CONTEMPT?!?

Nah, the issue is far more around the huge increase in output armies got rather than marines getting a 2nd wound. It's actually kinda cute to think that the entire game got massive jumps in killing power purely due to it, I can see how it happened with regards the extra d2 scattered around, but a lot of it is just standard gw leaning hard into a bad idea.

Just seen that Fleshborers can be pumped up to 24" range, Strength 6 for 1/2 CP.

Those Boltguns sure are looking even weaker now... that 3+ save doesn't mean much in a game saturated with -1ap basic firearms.

*Powers up Gauss flayer*
*Has gone recollection of 4th Ed Necrons, when unmodified 6to hit auto wounded, and all Gauss weapons did that.*

 ClockworkZion wrote:
tneva, you missed my point. No one takes them NOW but that doesn't mean no one will take them in the FUTURE. Making adjustments with the future of the game in mind is important too.

Yea sure. Easily killed expensive squad.

They would need something seriously big buff. Like perma trans human or something to make it worth. As is all 2W does is make you weaker. More expensive, getting wiped out just as easily.

There's tougher actual threat units that have big pile of wounds. 20 CSM would be laughable in comparison. Laughably bad. Easy to delete. Bang you are dead. That easy.

They need something ridiculous to make up for nerf of 2W 20 model unit...

 carldooley wrote:
This whole thread is hilarity itself...
'We should give Space Marines a second wound to reflect on the tabletop the resiliency of Space Marines in the fluff.'

'We need more deadly weapons to deal with the 2W Space Marines.'

'Space Marines no longer hit like they used to. Let's make their bog standard weapons more deadly.'

Is anyone willing to consider that this upward spiral of damage and lethality can be laid squarely at the feet of those same people who wanted Space Marines to be more durable?

After all, it isn't like Space Marines should demean themselves on the tabletop by using cover, when THEIR BEST ARMOR IS CONTEMPT?!?

truth here. it was like "my space marines should feel liek tanks" GW responds with a second wound, transhuman strat etc.

other players "we can't hurt space marines" GW responds with making things more lethal

byproduct is most non power armored/aspect warrior infantry are basically crap now as they die in droves and don't really get saves anymore.

now we have "why is everybody taking things good against high armor infantry" when those are the only infantry that work anymore

hoping 10th edition tones the lethality down, i miss being able to play my ork horde list but currently they don't get an armor save against most things and die in droves to morale. I then try to play my mass infantry guard or heavy tau firewarrior lnfantry armies and ... all terrible as they are leaf blowered off the table

 Blndmage wrote:
*Powers up Gauss flayer*
*Has gone recollection of 4th Ed Necrons, when unmodified 6to hit auto wounded, and all Gauss weapons did that.*

Ah, I remember those days. When you thought that auto wounding meant something like rending, then your opponent or judge said, '(I\they) get to make an armor save.'

 G00fySmiley wrote:
hoping 10th edition tones the lethality down, i miss being able to play my ork horde list but currently they don't get an armor save against most things and die in droves to morale. I then try to play my mass infantry guard or heavy tau firewarrior lnfantry armies and ... all terrible as they are leaf blowered off the table

to be fair though... they always did.
A green hordes' defense has always been NUMBERS, not stats.
I mean, look at the Ld stat. Do they still have something like they did; Ld 6 unless there are more that 10 bodies, in which case they autopass?

I used to play the same strategy in Guard; my opponents would kill my guardsmen in buckets, but I'd still win on objectives.

Numbers was their defense in the past yes, but now those ork grunts aren't cheap and suffer A LOT of additional casualties due to morale. Some of their possible layers of saves (FNP and KFF were both 5+ at some point) have also been toned down.

 carldooley wrote:

 Blndmage wrote:
*Powers up Gauss flayer*
*Has gone recollection of 4th Ed Necrons, when unmodified 6to hit auto wounded, and all Gauss weapons did that.*

Ah, I remember those days. When you thought that auto wounding meant something like rending, then your opponent or judge said, '(I\they) get to make an armor save.'

 G00fySmiley wrote:
hoping 10th edition tones the lethality down, i miss being able to play my ork horde list but currently they don't get an armor save against most things and die in droves to morale. I then try to play my mass infantry guard or heavy tau firewarrior lnfantry armies and ... all terrible as they are leaf blowered off the table

to be fair though... they always did.
A green hordes' defense has always been NUMBERS, not stats.
I mean, look at the Ld stat. Do they still have something like they did; Ld 6 unless there are more that 10 bodies, in which case they autopass?

I used to play the same strategy in Guard; my opponents would kill my guardsmen in buckets, but I'd still win on objectives.

They always died but they were not being removed as quickly or in as large of numbers. In the case of orks the green tide worked because there were strategems and abilities to restore boyz, there was also a 5++ from kustom forcefield now down to 6++, note that was a 4++ in 5th edition. likewise we used to have a 5+ feel no pain with a paindoc, but now that is a 6++ and unlike other medics they cannot restore squadmembers.

any good player knows you kill 6 of the ork boyz in a 30 man unit then any extra shots are wasted as the weight of dice in combat attrition failures means less die. kill 6 boys in a 30 man and they mathmatically lose 6-7 more. next turn kill 6 again and they lose about 3. so kill 12 boyz make them lose 9 free and now its a tiny unit to finish off turn 3 since they are also slow. With most weapons having -1AP now they don't even get saves on the 6 you need to kill.

the cherry on the gak pie for orks though is the leadership. orks used to be fearless in the turn a waagh was called and they had a bosspole to insted of all running lose D3 models instead. That was replaced with mobrule that worked well enough as big units were very unlikely to run. This edition though yea all of that is gone, ork boyz are among the worst troops in the game hanging out with guardsman debating who is worse. the downside being orks also have another troop the gretchin which literally wear the crown of worst unit in the game king.

 Blndmage wrote:
*Powers up Gauss flayer*
*Has gone recollection of 4th Ed Necrons, when unmodified 6to hit auto wounded, and all Gauss weapons did that.*

I hate to break it to you but Gauss Flayers used to auto-wound on an unmodified 6 to wound, not to hit.

It mattered against Wraithlords and . . . not a whole lot else.

If it makes you feel any better, the current Gauss Flayer also wounds automatically on an unmodified 6 to hit. Granted, so does every other weapon in the game but still...

is it time to "Make Space Marines great again!" ?

SemperMortis wrote:

Breton wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

except as shown above...they weren't AP-1 and AP5 was nothing like AP-1.

Yes, the bottom tier AP for basic weapons that had AP is AP-1, except for a couple editions when it was AP5. Not alike whatsoever. Even though that was the AP they put on the basic guns they wanted to have AP and worked their way up/down from opposite ends of the spectrum.

"Couple Editions". Yeah I found an old 3rd edition Codex. Space Marine bolter was AP5. So 3rd-7th it was AP5. GW released Rogue Trader in 1987. They released 3rd edition in 1998 and 8th edition in 2017. So the Game has been around for 35ish years, and really 1st and 2nd were nothing at all like anything todays game is played. AP was things like APD6+D4+4 so realistically the game as we know it started in 3rd but lets just give you Rogue Trader and 2nd Edition. That means that for 19 of the years the game has existed bolters were AP5 not AP-1. If you are fair about it, bolters have only been AP-1 since 8th which means for 5ish years and going even further than that, they were only AP-1 in 8th and 9th when in tactical doctrine.

Minor point, Semper - in 2nd ed (and RT too, IIRC), weapons had two different stats that you seem to be conflating here:
- Armour Penetration - The measure of how well they penetrated a vehicle's armour, which often did involve some polyhedral dice
- Armour Save Modifier - How much they affected a model's armour save roll.

You need to look at 1st/2nd ed weapon armour save modifiers when comparing to the AP value in use today, not the armour penetration value. GW should've gone back to the "armour save modifier" moniker when the system reverted in 8th, not stuck with the AP term from 3rd through 7th.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
No it's drawing a line in the sand between army types and army popularity. By the logic of people in this thread CUSTODES aren't an elite army. Which is fething bananas.

I'm pretty sure the use of air quotes around "logic" there is mandatory.

Karol wrote:

Well Karol, you pretty much only have to spec into Marines now because so many complained about hordes that cheap chaff infantry are basically useless now

Tau run kroots and DE run kabalites. Same as tyranids run their guants. And other armies being better doesn't help marine. Because either marines are in those rare 2.0 moments, when they don't care if guants or anything else just became a bit better. Or the army is not popular enough or worse impossible to counter without losing army efficiency.

As someone said in this thread, one of the problems all meq have is that all anti tank is generally efficient or super efficient against them. And if neither tanks, nor monsters are run, then we are in the middle of a horde meta which then makes it moot what ever the marine runs.

Kroot aren't run as hordes, they are run MSU and usually only 1 squad because they SUCK compared to the things people would rather take. Kabalites aren't run as horde either. Usually those Kabalites are run as MSU units with heavy/special weapons and not much else. I guess Marine Tacs are Horde now as well since they do literally the same thing

Also, We have no idea how good gants are actually going to be, its all speculation. And i'll take this moment to remind you that a lot of Marine players on this very forum were screaming and ripping their hair out about how OP Ork Boyz were going to be. How well did that turn out?

Karol wrote:

So, with that in mind, why would I bring anti-infantry weapons when I know they are mostly useless against the majority of the game right now when I could instead bring multi-dmg weapons with lots of -AP?

No one takes melta or plasma to counter marines. Marines get countered by stuff in addition to specific weapons or unit formations being good vs something else.

You just agreed with my point...they take them anyway because they are great vs Vehicles and heavy units and they also just happen to be very effective against Marines as well! Why am I taking Rokkitz when I could take Big shootas? Well, because big shootas suck against vehicles and are terrible vs Marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 carldooley wrote:

to be fair though... they always did.
A green hordes' defense has always been NUMBERS, not stats.
I mean, look at the Ld stat. Do they still have something like they did; Ld 6 unless there are more that 10 bodies, in which case they autopass?
I used to play the same strategy in Guard; my opponents would kill my guardsmen in buckets, but I'd still win on objectives.

Not really though. Boyz were durable with numbers yes, but they actually did something. Now they just die in droves for no real gain. Also, those stats have gotten a lot worse durability wise.

LD: It used to be fearless mobz until below like 18models. Now its LD7 with a Nob and you only lose models to attrition on 1s if there is a big mob over half strength incredibly close by. We also used to have Auto-pass morale for D3 mortal wounds on our nobz and Warbosses, now thats a 2CP strat. Yep, we get the honor of killing 9-27 of our own points for the low cost of 2CP.

And as someone else mentioned, KFF went from a 4+ Cover save a few editions ago, to a 6+ Invuln, the Dok went from a 5+ FNP to a 6+ FNP and unlike every other med unit in the game, it can't resurrect models. Overall they've gotten markedly worse than they've been in decades. Where as the biggest complaint as scene in this very thread is that Marines whose base line abilities have all gone up are upset that others are getting buffs which denudes their Marine Bolter porn fantasy.

 stonehorse wrote:
Just seen that Fleshborers can be pumped up to 24" range, Strength 6 for 1/2 CP.

Those Boltguns sure are looking even weaker now... that 3+ save doesn't mean much in a game saturated with -1ap basic firearms.

Imagine playing space marines when they were toughness 3, power armor was a 4+ saving throw and lasguns had -1 AP...

SemperMortis wrote:
And as someone else mentioned, KFF went from a 4+ Cover save a few editions ago, to a 6+ Invuln, the Dok went from a 5+ FNP to a 6+ FNP and unlike every other med unit in the game, it can't resurrect models. Overall they've gotten markedly worse than they've been in decades. Where as the biggest complaint as scene in this very thread is that Marines whose base line abilities have all gone up are upset that others are getting buffs which denudes their Marine Bolter porn fantasy.

At least your heal isn't a stratagem(which means no point in taking multiple) and cost you command points. And take up an HQ slot.
8th edition Wolf Priest could heal 1d3 wounds once per round just like most healers. 9th edition "Chaplain" with the Wolf Priest keyword now has a strat for healing wounds, but doesn't get resurrect strat, or the FNP aura. Space Wolves can't take Apothecaries.

SW don't need many CPs to work though, and taking an HQ slot is never an issue. Wolf Priest is even the cheapest HQ in the codex. There's also no reason to take multiples of it since it's typically one or two units that would really benefit from the healing.

I bring a Wolf Priest everytime I play Space Wolves while I never played the painboy in 9th, not once. Not even ever considered playing it. Healing wounds on units such as TWC is quite useful, much more than a 6+++ for all the infantries/bikers within 3'' of the dok. The Wolf Priest also have litanies to use and can keep up with the fast stuff by taking jump packs, painboy doesn't have any other ability than the FNP aura, must be on foot with 5'', and he's a worse fighter than the priest.

 Niiai wrote:

bat702 wrote:
serious question, I could totally see either in 10th edition or maybe for basic bolters in Chaos Space Marines Codex, that bolters will get significant upgrades to keep up with how killy 40k is getting

I do not think so. I play GSC and SM. Shotguns are S4. But to get acces to S4 i need to drop into the Heavy 3 gun. I really enjoy that a bolter is just as deadly as an close ranged shotgun or a longrange heavy guns.

But less deadly than a short ranged beetle being fired at you from the most expendable of a hive fleets resources.

They're Fleshborers, not Armorborers. They shouldn't have an AP value!

EviscerationPlague wrote:
They're Fleshborers, not Armorborers. They shouldn't have an AP value!

The name has nothing to do with what the gun does. i just reread warriors of Ultramar (tyranids being the enemy in the book) They are not a joke, its a acid covered bug with an armor piecing head that burrows into the target if not penetrating the armor then digging into the soft spots as its a living ammunition. that said the str might be the part they overdid as super deadly to a guardsman, swatted off marines.

That said in the new codex termagants seem to have gotten a great new gun but also a significant point increase alongside it. the old gants game wise were basically useless. 5 points so cheap but their gun was 12 inch range and useless on a worse than guardsman platform for almost the same price (5 points per model vs 5.5 points and a guardsman is not even a very good troop)

They gained 1 armor save so 6+ to 5+, went from 12 inch shot to 18 inch shot, at str 5 ap-1 instead of str 4 ap0, they lost thier large numbers damage buff and cost 2 more points now. They were not worth taking at 5 points, and I don't think they are really now worth the 7 points. Its a better profile and i think if the termagant had been worth 5 points to start with its a reasonable 2 point upgrade, but i guess we will see how it plays out. I just don't think they can compete with warriors in the slot.

I am also not opposed to buffing the bolters if the points are reflected, but space marines already have one of the better troops (compared to other codexes, not the best troops either but better than average) so buffing them would need to come with points, a str 5 ap-1 bolter with current points slap an extra point on them and probably there.

ccs wrote:
It'd be funny to give Chaos bolters a -1ap but not the Imperial ones.
Make the Imperial players wait 2.5 years+ for something that could appear at any moment via FAQ etc - but doesn't "for reasons".

God you guys are salty.

Here's a tip. House Rule it. I've had two-wound Chaos marines since 2020.

 Togusa wrote:

ccs wrote:
It'd be funny to give Chaos bolters a -1ap but not the Imperial ones.
Make the Imperial players wait 2.5 years+ for something that could appear at any moment via FAQ etc - but doesn't "for reasons".

God you guys are salty.

Here's a tip. House Rule it. I've had two-wound Chaos marines since 2020.

houserules only work if both sides agree.

Since some people think "Theyre balanced around having 1 wound", its hard to convince people

Voss wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:
Just seen that Fleshborers can be pumped up to 24" range, Strength 6 for 1/2 CP.

Those Boltguns sure are looking even weaker now... that 3+ save doesn't mean much in a game saturated with -1ap basic firearms.

Imagine playing space marines when they were toughness 3, power armor was a 4+ saving throw and lasguns had -1 AP...

At least they could gas their foes with relative immunity

SemperMortis 804013 11331746 wrote:
Kroot aren't run as hordes, they are run MSU and usually only 1 squad because they SUCK compared to the things people would rather take. Kabalites aren't run as horde either. Usually those Kabalites are run as MSU units with heavy/special weapons and not much else. I guess Marine Tacs are Horde now as well since they do literally the same thing

Also, We have no idea how good gants are actually going to be, its all speculation. And i'll take this moment to remind you that a lot of Marine players on this very forum were screaming and ripping their hair out about how OP Ork Boyz were going to be. How well did that turn out?



You just agreed with my point...they take them anyway because they are great vs Vehicles and heavy units and they also just happen to be very effective against Marines as well! Why am I taking Rokkitz when I could take Big shootas? Well, because big shootas suck against vehicles and are terrible vs Marines.

kroots are run in 10 man squads, in 10th that is considered a horde unit.
As the orks boys thing goes, yeah marine players didn't like the fact that orks got an updated stats. Any weapon or unit update stats makes their army and their load outs worse. Specially for armies that are not update or for those wierd people who actually want to run marine troops. In the end we found out that the basic ork trooper happens to be a buggy . Same way a basic nid is a monster of some sort or a basic GK is an NDK 50% of the time.
And orks did dunk on marines hard, so in the end the marine players were right to not like their rule set.

As the meta thing goes. This is not an in addition thing, not when winning in events is concerned. I can't think of a top end tournament player in w40k, who would take something to play his soliter list or counter a specific match up , and then check if it is good vs marines too. If a list is bad vs marines, a non top tier army, it is just not played at all. It is not good to be the popular faction, and this is an outside of events thing, who gets countered by stuff like stats, army rules or core rules in addition. And it is a general thing, not a marine specific thing. Just ask anyone who plays or played an army that get hard countered that way. Like knights and scoring terrain rules for example. In events a marine player will be that BT/WS player, that GK with 30 interceptor and maxed out NDKs. Outside of events this may not be a thing, and it is really bad when someone with a just bought ork army, to use your example, rolls you over by accident. Worse the only fix to it , for the marine player, is to play a specific tournament build. And in w40k, as the edition progresses, the further you are in with books for other factions, the harder it becomes to get an army that can do that. Marines fall off the power curve really fast, much faster then other armies. in 8th eldar were like 3ed or 4th book out and they stayed crazy good till 2.0 marines came out, and after that they were just good. Comparing to that marines became a meme as soon as other factions started to get books.

But in the end the argument is moot. non marine players don't care about marine rules, same way marine players don't care non marine rules. The same goes for enjoyment of the game etc In the end it comes down to this. Marine book, looks laughable weak to the stuff which is out now, and no one likes his rules to be weak or laughable, because those armies are not fun to play with. Which doesn't mean you can't fun playing them, but then it involves additional stuff like spending times with friends etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss 804013 11331750 wrote:
Imagine playing space marines when they were toughness 3, power armor was a 4+ saving throw and lasguns had -1 AP...

When your troop option costs 40pts and gets wounded on a +3, and your saves drop to +3 and you are being shot at by stuff that costs 1/8th of your points it does feel exactly like that.

Thematically / lore wise -yes, big time. I had to laugh when I saw the Fleshborer got S5 Ap1 and the Bolter is still plain S4. Its one of the most vaunted weapons in the lore, and one of the most underwhelming in the rules. Its a strange contrast.

Game balance wise I can't say.

 thegreatchimp wrote:
Thematically / lore wise -yes, big time. I had to laugh when I saw the Fleshborer got S5 Ap1 and the Bolter is still plain S4. Its one of the most vaunted weapons in the lore, and one of the most underwhelming in the rules. Its a strange contrast.

Game balance wise I can't say.

Bolt rounds don't have teeth.

Karol, you do know that people aren't universally misanthropic a-holes who are entirely selfish and utterly unconcerned with anything besides themselves... Right?

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 thegreatchimp wrote:
Thematically / lore wise -yes, big time. I had to laugh when I saw the Fleshborer got S5 Ap1 and the Bolter is still plain S4. Its one of the most vaunted weapons in the lore, and one of the most underwhelming in the rules. Its a strange contrast.

Game balance wise I can't say.

Bolt rounds don't have teeth.

Fleshborer beetles don't explode.

I don't think its hard to observe that, barring something in the deep codex, 7 points for a guardsman that has a single S5 AP-1 shot isn't good. The output isn't there versus where the game is at the moment. And paying 40% more for wound counters adds up.

Karol wrote:

SemperMortis 804013 11331746 wrote:
Kroot aren't run as hordes, they are run MSU and usually only 1 squad because they SUCK compared to the things people would rather take. Kabalites aren't run as horde either. Usually those Kabalites are run as MSU units with heavy/special weapons and not much else. I guess Marine Tacs are Horde now as well since they do literally the same thing

Also, We have no idea how good gants are actually going to be, its all speculation. And i'll take this moment to remind you that a lot of Marine players on this very forum were screaming and ripping their hair out about how OP Ork Boyz were going to be. How well did that turn out?

You just agreed with my point...they take them anyway because they are great vs Vehicles and heavy units and they also just happen to be very effective against Marines as well! Why am I taking Rokkitz when I could take Big shootas? Well, because big shootas suck against vehicles and are terrible vs Marines.

kroots are run in 10 man squads, in 10th that is considered a horde unit.

....So kroot are now a horde army by taking 1 unit of 10 or possibly 2-3 units of 10. So anyone who brings 10-30 troops is now running a horde... You might consider that a horde because GW is idiotic and destroyed the entire premise of Horde armies but that is not a horde army. Green Tide back in 7th was 101-301 infantry models. In 8th, Green Tide was 120-180 Models. But now by your definition, Green Tide is 10-30. Bud, a Horde is a playstyle that swaps durability in armor/toughness/wounds for durability in numbers. And any unit which can accidentally be taken out with bolter fire from 1 unit of Marines is not a horde.

Karol wrote:

As the orks boys thing goes, yeah marine players didn't like the fact that orks got an updated stats. Any weapon or unit update stats makes their army and their load outs worse. Specially for armies that are not update or for those wierd people who actually want to run marine troops. In the end we found out that the basic ork trooper happens to be a buggy . Same way a basic nid is a monster of some sort or a basic GK is an NDK 50% of the time.
And orks did dunk on marines hard, so in the end the marine players were right to not like their rule set.

An Ork basic troop choice became Nothing. Because so many players whinged about playing against Horde armies GW went above and beyond and nerfed Ork troops into the ground. Ork boyz are terrible, and would be terrible at 7ppm let alone 9. Grots are hot garbage at 5ppm, they are 0.5ppm cheaper than a guardsmen but without any of the armor/weapons/rules/strats/orders/bonuses etc. And because again, so many whinged, Grots aren't even Objective secured anymore. But don't worry they gave Orkz a 3rd troops choice finally, after literally decades! What is it? Boyz with a 6+ Invuln and S5. Of course they cost more and are just as useless So yeah, Ork players stopped taking their OP T5 troop choices and instead went with Buggies for the most part, and no that does not mean that the Marine players who spent 3 months screaming about T5 were right, it just means that GW accidentally gave orkz a competitive option, but they didn't let it last long. I'll also point out that as of right now, Orkz have 70 Top 3 finishes for GTs/Majors in 9th edition. Marines have 65. Include BA, DA, SW, BT and Grey knights and it goes to 194. So when you say they got "dunked on" you mean, they weren't able to just casually roll over orkz for part of an edition?

Karol wrote:
. Outside of events this may not be a thing, and it is really bad when someone with a just bought ork army, to use your example, rolls you over by accident. Worse the only fix to it , for the marine player, is to play a specific tournament build. And in w40k, as the edition progresses, the further you are in with books for other factions, the harder it becomes to get an army that can do that. Marines fall off the power curve really fast, much faster then other armies. in 8th eldar were like 3ed or 4th book out and they stayed crazy good till 2.0 marines came out, and after that they were just good. Comparing to that marines became a meme as soon as other factions started to get books.

Rarely if ever does someone just "Buy" an ork army and roll over an experienced player. Orkz for one thing are a faction with a lot of models. Even buggy spam takes a long time to assemble/paint and get on the table. And usually the newer players buy infantry which almost universally are terrible this edition. Boyz, Grots, Flashgitz, lootas, burnas, nobz etc, those are all bad choices which end with you losing just by bolter fire, you know, the thing this thread is asking if it needs a buff?

LMAO i'll remind you that Marines were top tier in 7th...like for almost all of it. In 8th they started the edition as top tier, dropped to mid tier as new books came out and finished the edition top tier. 9th you guys started the edition absolutely top tier and are currently MID tier. complaining that you didn't get to stay top tier for longer than you guys usually do is a bit ridiculous.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Karol, you do know that people aren't universally misanthropic a-holes who are entirely selfish and utterly unconcerned with anything besides themselves... Right?

and yet, this stayed up long enough for me to quote it:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
They're Fleshborers, not Armorborers. They shouldn't have an AP value!

The name has nothing to do with what the gun does.

What was the point of this whole thread?

A question. Space Marines have long had access to Special Issue Ammunition and Thousand Sons have long had their -2AP boltguns. If bolters in general get buffs, would these things retain their buffs so as to stay 'special'? (Ex, would special issue ammunition still exist, and would the Rubric Bolter go from -2AP to -3AP to retain its bonus compared to every other bolter?)

If you want special bolters, just take the ones that already exist.

 carldooley wrote:

What was the point of this whole thread?

A question. Space Marines have long had access to Special Issue Ammunition and Thousand Sons have long had their -2AP boltguns. If bolters in general get buffs, would these things retain their buffs so as to stay 'special'? (Ex, would special issue ammunition still exist, and would the Rubric Bolter go from -2AP to -3AP to retain its bonus compared to every other bolter?)

I know it's probably not the point you're making but there's an additional issue in that AP tends to yield diminishing returns. IOW, making basic bolters AP-1 is far more impactful than having Thousand Sons bolters go from AP-2 to AP-3.