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jareddm wrote:
As much as people quote the Black Books and claim Raven Guard/Alpha Legion Mk VI dominance, none of the Black Books actually cover late-Heresy events, and certainly nothing within 2 years of the Siege. So the statement that all legions were using Mk VI in late Heresy isn't contradicted by the Black Books at all.

Nothing says they were not in use by late heresy by all legion.
The claim that it was THE dominate armor is whats new. Being side spread, commonly used, does not equate to being the dominate armor. It had its place in legions and was used a lot, but saying it was THE majority of armor is new, Which, i think is sort of silly and just GW trying to push people to buy the new beakie armor.

But you're ignoring their point. The Black Books can't refute that MkVI is the most common armour by the Siege because they haven't got there. So the fact that GW has said that by the Siege MkVI is the most common is just GW extending past the point the Black Books reached. MkVI wasn't the dominant pattern in the early Heresy (which is where the Black Books are) but by the Siege and Scouring it was (which is where it seems GW will be taking HH now).
But how is it silly?
"Oh yeah guys we have the blueprints and the ability to produce all this good armour but we're just going to keep using all this old broken stuff and not equip our masses of new troops with any new gear at all. Its not like the Warmaster already did something like this when he secured the allegiance of Kelbor Hal and got loads of MkIV armour for his allies."
That's what you're basically saying.

And thats reasonable that even the black books say taht by the siege it was common.
The disconnect there is, the siege was basically the end of it, so. Saying it was the dominate armor in late heresy is true....its just, more accurately it was late late LATE heresy like the very tail end of it all that it was the dominate.

Again, it does not really matter that much, i think ultimatly GW just pushed up how soon it became super common and dominate to help push the models if anything. At the end of the day it dont really matter because running all Mk 1,2,3,4,5, or 6, is 100% still fluffy across pretty much any legion in late heresy bar a few.

jareddm wrote:
As much as people quote the Black Books and claim Raven Guard/Alpha Legion Mk VI dominance, none of the Black Books actually cover late-Heresy events, and certainly nothing within 2 years of the Siege. So the statement that all legions were using Mk VI in late Heresy isn't contradicted by the Black Books at all.

yeah. people tend to take a statement thats a picture in time and hold onto it as holy writ. even if a huge amount of time has passed

Jarms48 wrote:

Andykp wrote:
This is all why the heresy was better let as myth and legend and the bloated crap fest it has become. Arguing about made up stuff as is it was real history, they can say what they like about it, say they all wore mk6 or even say primaris were there all along. It’s all made up.

Absolutely agreed. All this nonsense HH stuff is just ruining 40k as well. The primarchs are popular in HH so GW started adding them into 40k. Now 40k just feels like a Saturday morning cartoon. It’s only ever the named characters that show up, with a rotating roster of who wins and loses instead of a dark sci-fi setting.

It removes so much creativity too, so many people don’t bother making their own characters up now and it’s crap, I know special characters started ages ago and I never liked them, but it seems now that all the fluff yiu read is about what the named guys are up to.

This thread also sums up what puts me off the HH game. All that I dislike about historical gaming shoehorned into 40k, a setting where facts are supposed to rare as rocking horse sh!t and the whole HH period is supposed to be a time of myth and legends.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
And thats reasonable that even the black books say taht by the siege it was common.
The disconnect there is, the siege was basically the end of it, so. Saying it was the dominate armor in late heresy is true....its just, more accurately it was late late LATE heresy like the very tail end of it all that it was the dominate.

The difference between "AT" and "BY" is important though and you are treating the latter as the former. If MkVI was prevalent AT the Siege of Terra then we can safely assume that the Legions kept it safe until the endgame. If MkVI was prevalent BY the Siege of Terra then it's vague as to when MkVI became the most common armour mark. That being said we can use the timeline of events to roughly deduce when MkVI achieved this status. If the rumours are to be believed and the upcoming HH 2.0 begins at the battle of Heta-Gladius, we are looking at the final stages of the Heresy just before Horus's gathering at Ullanor where he brought his brothers together as they made the final push to Terra. This would have occured a little before the Titandeath at Beta-Garmon in 012-013.M31, with the Solar War and Siege of Terra beginning in 014.M31. So if we go for "BY" the Siege, then the timeline fits perfectly fine.

Again, it does not really matter that much, i think ultimatly GW just pushed up how soon it became super common and dominate to help push the models if anything. At the end of the day it dont really matter because running all Mk 1,2,3,4,5, or 6, is 100% still fluffy across pretty much any legion in late heresy bar a few.

Exactly so why are you making a big fuss over literally nothing?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Andykp wrote:
It removes so much creativity too, so many people don’t bother making their own characters up now and it’s crap, I know special characters started ages ago and I never liked them, but it seems now that all the fluff yiu read is about what the named guys are up to.

You clearly haven't read the Black Books or much of the HH series or actually interacted with the wider HH community.

Wasn't the point in these armour marks just an in universe explanation behind updating the model ranges to different styles over time?

The history of power armour was a really early bit of work from GW though. They had beakies from RTB01 and the early metals, and were just moving into the mk7 style and then they released this rather detailed evolution of power armour and terminator armour. If it was intended to support a road map of eventual releases, then it was really forward looking

From that Dark Angels image, the legion got their MkVI from local forge worlds in the Thramas sector. If places as far out as Thramas already had the MkVI pattern, it was definitely widespread.

 Gert wrote:

Exactly so why are you making a big fuss over literally nothing?

Im not? im just pointing out where it stands.
Its funny because the reminds me so much of a lot of other non GW things. Like, i find that the people who are making the biggest stink about Mk VI armor, are the people who are running around going "WHY ARE YOU MAKING THIS SUCH A BIG DEAL!? WHATS THE BIG DEAL ABOUT Mk VI?! ITS CANON STOP MAKING IT A BIG DEAL! JUST ACCEPT IT!" are the ones bringing it up far more often then the people who are against it.
Im not saying you are doing this right now, I'm just saying that i find that is what i see more often then not.

\

It's a retcon of a retcon. It wasn't until HH became fleshed out that they retconned it to being rare and even then it was something Blythe came up with.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

jareddm wrote:
As much as people quote the Black Books and claim Raven Guard/Alpha Legion Mk VI dominance, none of the Black Books actually cover late-Heresy events, and certainly nothing within 2 years of the Siege. So the statement that all legions were using Mk VI in late Heresy isn't contradicted by the Black Books at all.

Nothing says they were not in use by late heresy by all legion.
The claim that it was THE dominate armor is whats new. Being side spread, commonly used, does not equate to being the dominate armor. It had its place in legions and was used a lot, but saying it was THE majority of armor is new, Which, i think is sort of silly and just GW trying to push people to buy the new beakie armor.

It isn't new.
When Epic (well, 1st edition was just 'Space Marine)' was launched, it was explicitly the Heresy. And it was only mk6 armor. That was the only game in town. They added mk7 with later editions. Then came back to the heresy again with other new 'older' armor variants (several of which weren't in much use by the heresy).

Im not? im just pointing out where it stands.

Repeatedly 'just pointing out' will always look like a fuss to other people. And the rest ('its OTHER people') just reads like gaslighting.

 Gert wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
And thats reasonable that even the black books say taht by the siege it was common.
The disconnect there is, the siege was basically the end of it, so. Saying it was the dominate armor in late heresy is true....its just, more accurately it was late late LATE heresy like the very tail end of it all that it was the dominate.

The difference between "AT" and "BY" is important though and you are treating the latter as the former. If MkVI was prevalent AT the Siege of Terra then we can safely assume that the Legions kept it safe until the endgame. If MkVI was prevalent BY the Siege of Terra then it's vague as to when MkVI became the most common armour mark. That being said we can use the timeline of events to roughly deduce when MkVI achieved this status. If the rumours are to be believed and the upcoming HH 2.0 begins at the battle of Heta-Gladius, we are looking at the final stages of the Heresy just before Horus's gathering at Ullanor where he brought his brothers together as they made the final push to Terra. This would have occured a little before the Titandeath at Beta-Garmon in 012-013.M31, with the Solar War and Siege of Terra beginning in 014.M31. So if we go for "BY" the Siege, then the timeline fits perfectly fine.

Again, it does not really matter that much, i think ultimatly GW just pushed up how soon it became super common and dominate to help push the models if anything. At the end of the day it dont really matter because running all Mk 1,2,3,4,5, or 6, is 100% still fluffy across pretty much any legion in late heresy bar a few.

Exactly so why are you making a big fuss over literally nothing?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Andykp wrote:
It removes so much creativity too, so many people don’t bother making their own characters up now and it’s crap, I know special characters started ages ago and I never liked them, but it seems now that all the fluff yiu read is about what the named guys are up to.

You clearly haven't read the Black Books or much of the HH series or actually interacted with the wider HH community.

It was more a comment on 40k, but 30k is as guilty, personally I don’t like the fleshed out HH at all. It should have stayed as myths and not been presented as any attempt at “history”, the black books were great, much better than the novels. But again, too open to being read as fact by many for my liking. But 30k gaming has the same issue with “named” characters that 40k has.

Not sure if it’s been suggested before, because frankly I couldn’t be arsed to check….

Surely the argument of which Mk was most prevalent is going to shift as the Heresy raged on?

When it kicked off, Mk2/Mk3 was of course predominant, as Mk4 was only just being put into production. Indeed the Heresy itself is why Mk4 was largely abandoned.

By the time Mk6 came along? Horrific losses on both sides from years of frankly unimaginable civil war violence. Power Armour is of course resilient, by far from impervious.

We also need to keep in mind that despite the conflict, The Imperium’s production capacity was pretty much at its zenith, as the rot of 40k hadn’t really set in.

Both sides had access to it. And we can reasonably infer the process of turning a human into an Astartes was just more reliable (the selection process in the modern day is very arguably down to “if I can only have 1,000 men, I’m going to make sure each recruit is the best I can find”).

Both sides had the benefit of fully functional Forgeworlds, each of which could churn out Mk6 at a dramatic rate.

So by the time we get to the finale? Both sides very likely had Mk6 in great numbers, because it was the most desirable in terms of superior technology (compared to Mk2 and Mk3) and ease of fabrication (compared to Mk4).

In short? Mk2 was the most common, until tue rigours of all out Galaxy spanning civil war and technological development provided a superior alternative,

also it's worth noting, from a "building your own army" pov that evn the Nightlords who are said to have had less mk vi then many other legions, had eneugh to equip 4 "chapters" with the stuff. that means over 4000 suits. that's plenty to make an all MK VI army of any damn legion you choose

but yeah th e history of the MK VI armor has been a tad... confused. now that we're at the seige of terra GW's clarifying. it makes some sense. the MK VI armor was what was produced on terra and mars and thus, for the Seige of terra that's what swiftly accounted for the bulk of the armor because it simplified supply lines.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Flinty wrote:
If I recall correctly, In the original Space Marine game it was the only mark of armour included. Every single little marine was a mk6 beaky. It’s not a retcon.

^That's what I recall too. The distictly remember my Epic collection having both mk6 and Mk7s from two different generations of manufacture.

This is it. Actually, both the first and second edition Space Marine starter sets included the mk6 design marines - even though the cover art was clearly mk7 (certainly for the 2nd edition boxset).

I think a lot of the work now being done is just to make the lore kind of (quite sketchily) line up with the old miniature releases. mk6 was the first 'main' armour design done for marines with RTB-01 and a lot of the early metal sculpts, it was the first used in Epic (specifically for the Horus Heresy as an event) so they are just bringing things around full circle. I think they have done as good a job of it as can be expected really.