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The fact GW rules writing is clearly handed over to about 3 people barely scraping above minimum wage is bad - and I suspect why its often a joke. But institutionally, they clearly think they are building something much closer to D&D than chess.

 Dysartes wrote:
This is also a poster known for their slightly irrational posts when it comes to anything to do with the Imperium, so claiming that all Space Marine factions should stop being a thing is definitely going off the deep end, if not in a way that is entirely out of character.

My posts are definitely less irrational than anyone claiming the Imperium is heroic. Societies that practice widespread infanticide are generally considered to be monstrous.


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Tyel wrote:
The fact GW rules writing is clearly handed over to about 3 people barely scraping above minimum wage is bad - and I suspect why its often a joke. But institutionally, they clearly think they are building something much closer to D&D than chess.

You get what you pay for in this context. Game design is hard, and even very intelligent people need lots of experience and training to do it well. GW doesn't have either thing going for them.

Hecaton 804273 11337743 wrote:

My posts are definitely less irrational than anyone claiming the Imperium is heroic. Societies that practice widespread infanticide are generally considered to be monstrous.

Romans and Greeks did it. Practicaly every city based civilisation in europe did it. Some even had special official that had to gather the bodies before the animals got to them. No one goes around saying the Dutch or French were "monstrous". In Poland after WWII, churchs of all convictions created so called "life windows" because the problem of women dumbing children, specially in the new build soviet style cities were gigantic. But it is not like they were much bigger then what was going in in cities like Lodz or Warsaw, before either of the great wars.

The imperium of men fights for humans, against non humans that makes it automaticaly heroic, unless someone is or thinks himself not human.

Karol wrote:


The imperium of men fights for humans, against non humans that makes it automaticaly heroic, unless someone is or thinks himself not human.

Own side isn't always the heroic one. In litterature, cinema, comics, etc... there are plenty of examples of that. Take Avatar, which narrates of a war between humans and aliens: aliens are the heroic guys, humans are the scum of the galaxy. To the point that the human protagonist, which fights with the aliens against humasn, is turned into an alien at the end of the movie, and the viewers are happy for him.

People that aren't brainwashed by propaganda can definitely consider their own side as the wrong, evil, not right, etc... one.

Favouring an alien, whose goal is to kill and subjagate your race, is an example of outright I don't know what. It sound insane. It like pondering, if in 1939 soviets and germans weren't kind of a right. And those are at least humans in theory.
There is nothing good about an ork, eldar, necron , chaos worshiper, tyranid, tau etc. There for anything any organisation does to get rid this imminent threat to humanity is something good. Considering the power of enemy forces and the scale of threats, the fight can not be called anything else then heroic. Humanity in the w40k setting is at best stalling its enemies and most of the time fighting a slowly losing fight to the bitter end.

I don't understand the avatar example. How were the alien the good guys. They killed humans, they stopped earth from developing a more succesful and wealthy society stopping them from aquiring the floating rock resources. And they did that without having any real rights to the land or resources. Only humans can own land, assuming avatar humans are based on earth people. The alien claiming the planet and its resources for themselfs is as if orcas suddenly claimed that the oceans belong to them, and humans are not allowed to use them.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

You're not wrong that both parties should aim to have fun, but the problem is how much responsibility the GW defenders place on the players rather than GW itself.

The point of any game is to have fun, but the goal is to win. This isn't D&D, this is a game with a winner and loser.

No you don't understand, you're just having fun wrong if you don't have a UN meeting before the game and let your opponent dictate your entire list so they can "have fun". That's much more reasonable than expecting a company with hundreds of millions of dollars in annual revenue to properly playtest their game and make sure one person doesn't autolose just because of the faction they've chosen... /s

Karol wrote:
Favouring an alien, whose goal is to kill and subjagate your race, is an example of outright I don't know what. It sound insane. It like pondering, if in 1939 soviets and germans weren't kind of a right. And those are at least humans in theory.
There is nothing good about an ork, eldar, necron , chaos worshiper, tyranid, tau etc. There for anything any organisation does to get rid this imminent threat to humanity is something good. Considering the power of enemy forces and the scale of threats, the fight can not be called anything else then heroic. Humanity in the w40k setting is at best stalling its enemies and most of the time fighting a slowly losing fight to the bitter end.

I don't understand the avatar example. How were the alien the good guys. They killed humans, they stopped earth from developing a more succesful and wealthy society stopping them from aquiring the floating rock resources. And they did that without having any real rights to the land or resources. Only humans can own land, assuming avatar humans are based on earth people. The alien claiming the planet and its resources for themselfs is as if orcas suddenly claimed that the oceans belong to them, and humans are not allowed to use them.

Watch the movie, you'll understand. Hopefully.

Or any american western movie that sides with the indians and not the americans, same thing.

Yeah, Avatar reveals the other side of the propaganda bubble, through the eyes of a marginalised insider who gets out of said bubble and sees the reality… in 40k, the propaganda bubble is most obvious in satire such as the Regimental Standard. I understand what Karol is saying, but in all honesty, orca do own the oceans, humans are renting and ruining them and this is the biggest evidence that they do not own them, so to speak… beside the point, but what humans do to whales with their ridiculous sonar is enough Avatar for me to see that human beings are not the heroes on this planet, and will not be on any other either… not by the current neo feudal banality that is latter day corporate fascistic capitalism

Karol wrote:

I don't understand the avatar example. How were the alien the good guys. They killed humans, they stopped earth from developing a more succesful and wealthy society stopping them from aquiring the floating rock resources. And they did that without having any real rights to the land or resources. Only humans can own land, assuming avatar humans are based on earth people. The alien claiming the planet and its resources for themselfs is as if orcas suddenly claimed that the oceans belong to them, and humans are not allowed to use them.

There are two sides to any story. That's the point of Avatar. Where do you get the idea only humans can own land and claim resources? What gives us the right over and above another sentient species? Try to think of a reason that couldn't equally be used by the other side to justify their own supremacy. For example, claiming "because we're humans" doesn't work because in this case there's no reason the aliens can't reply with "because we're Na'vi" and be equally justified in their eyes.

In the same way the US and Canada can have political and cultural differences but still co-operate, or at worst tolerate, one another, we can imagine the same happening with an alien species.

To bring it back to gaming, one of the things I find myself doing a lot is playing new or returning players. In those situations, going all-out with some meta army and utterly crushing them is completely counter productive. That's because the goal is to have fun and encourage these players to keep playing the game, not turn them away with a terrible experience. Once they have more experience they can decide how they want to participate in the hobby. Some will be all about hyper-competitive games, others might prefer Crusade or homebrew but they'll never find out if you treat every game as a life-or-death experience.

Also, frankly, destroying some newbie in their first game isn't exactly a victory anyway. There's no achievement there, no skill involved and thus no satisfaction. For the reasons mentioned above, it likely feels worse than a loss.

The real issue of Avatar of course was the poor tactics the human used. If you can go orbital, it is time to drop rocks...

I'd say the real issue with avatar is the painfully obvious and patronising "message" but apparently it's too subtle for some.

Messaging is always defeated by orbital rocks...

Plus did anyone else think the blues were aliens? Every species had 6 limbs bar them. They clearly look bioengineered (far too tough, built in interface to exploit native creatures...) and not native to that planet, or perhaps a remnant of a previous civilisation that had heavily altered itself.

The_Real_Chris wrote:
Messaging is always defeated by orbital rocks...

Plus did anyone else think the blues were aliens? Every species had 6 limbs bar them. They clearly look bioengineered (far too tough, built in interface to exploit native creatures...) and not native to that planet, or perhaps a remnant of a previous civilisation that had heavily altered itself.

No, that'd require me putting more thought into it than I consider this movie being worth.

Avatar is a great film. Avatar 2 is coming… not sure what to make of that just yet, tho…

Avatar is a mediocre film. It was entertaining enough, and didn't really have consistency issues that you see everywhere nowadays. But it is a good example of showing hoe people can root for aliens over humans.