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Jarms48 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

and how do sisters get damage 2 stormbolters? i'm guessing from a strat?

It’s a special weapon. Costs 5 points.

Yeah, for some reason they get master-crafted stormbolters as standard issue. Same as their flamers are slightly better than everyone elses.

The Black Adder wrote:
I think most marine weapons are fine other than lascannons and the like that suffer from swingy d6 damage.

I completely disagree:
- Nearly all bolt weapons are bad. All other factions that previously had AP5 small arms have become AP-1, but bolt weapons haven't. Ad-Mech, Necrons, Tau, Eldar, etc. Any AP0 bolt weapon right now is basically a glorified lasgun.

- Basically all the standard heavy weapons are bad. Autocannons are worse than heavy bolters against nearly every target except T6. Assault cannons simply cost too many points, they're barely better than heavy bolters yet cost double their points. Missile launchers suffer from the same issues as lascannons, their krak missiles are too swingy and AP0 frag missiles are almost pointless except against the worst armoured horde units in the game. Which almost no-one takes.

This is why we see specific marine lists only spam melee options, units with volkite or multi-meltas. Then either only take vanguard detachments or minimalist troop choices as tax.

ccs wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
I think the only truly "bad" weapon right now is the lascannon, and I'd argue that plasma needs a change (but I know i'd be in the majority saying 1s do a mortal wound instead of outright slaying infantry, plus wound allocation rules would be a problem sometimes).

Question - why would wound allocation be a problem? Nothing wrong with the concept that someone else picks up the smoking plasma weapon after it has had a bit of time to cool down and be functional again...

I think rules as written currently it would be a problem where more than one marine model could take a wound, but it's easily corrected when you change the rule to just "the unit takes a mortal wound" instead.

It wouldn't create a problem. It's simple. You just put a wound marker on the plasma gunner. Further wounds/MW done in general get allocated to a wounded model as normal. Doesn't matter wich wounded model. Further MW generated by future plasma gun failures get applied to the plasma gunner.

But what if the unit had already taken a wound on a different model? But anyway it would be re-written to account for this so it's a non-issue.

Jarms48 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

and how do sisters get damage 2 stormbolters? i'm guessing from a strat?

It’s a special weapon. Costs 5 points.

Oh so 2/10 sister can take one, yeah sure, thats the same as doubling the damage of every model in a gk list


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ccs wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:

It wouldn't create a problem. It's simple. You just put a wound marker on the plasma gunner. Further wounds/MW done in general get allocated to a wounded model as normal. Doesn't matter wich wounded model. Further MW generated by future plasma gun failures get applied to the plasma gunner.

litterally just put mortals on the squad, feth that "this specific model gets a wound". A plasma gun venting can hit a squadmate, it's not hard to imagine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Quasistellar wrote:

But what if the unit had already taken a wound on a different model? But anyway it would be re-written to account for this so it's a non-issue.

"Whenever you roll an unmodified 1 to hit, this unit takes X mortal wounds"

 Irbis wrote:

The Black Adder wrote:
I think most marine weapons are fine

Try comparing them to xeno gak. It usually costs half of comparable SM weapon and does more damage (looking at you, assault cannon). Then there is the fact that xeno HQs break it even more by being able to combine 2+ BS with high speed/high power weapon spam, option that simply does not exist for SM characters. Tau dude can take 4 melta/plasma (then up it to that 3 dam no saves possible plasma rifle or a lot of other broken gak), eldar autarchs can now take some really broken wombo combos combined with jet pack or bike - on SM side, enjoy walking with your plasma pistol or at best combi-plasma (bolter if you like primaris). Really, the idea SM character can't take plasma gun (or whatever primaris equivalent is) to fully use their statline is just stupid, and the fact that your expensive storm shields do nothing in the face of cheap xeno guns allowing no saves is A+++ game design

Whilst points might break things, I don't actually know as I only play using power level so any costs are baked in. I was commenting purely from the perspective of a weapon profile.

Not all xenos have supper OP weapons. My primary love in 40k is necrons. Their weapons are generally in the same ball park as marines and frankly are actually fairly weak in comparison.

Necron overlords get one potentially awesome ranged weapon, which is single use.

And the xeno phase blade, which is a version of the lychguard weapons is actually better than the necron equivalent.

My point being not all xenos have it so good!

++Deleted a word appended post++

 VladimirHerzog wrote:


Oh so 2/10 sister can take one, yeah sure, thats the same as doubling the damage of every model in a gk list

Not the NDKs, they can't have storm bolters and 4 make up for a big chunk of the avarge GK army. Plus it would not be anything crazy comparing to the cost to gun carried by other armies. Str 5 ap-1, Ad mecha guns having superior range . Plus it would maybe make stuff like terminators partially viable to play with. compare the fire power of 5 GK termis with even D2 storm bolters to two void weavers, which are cheaper.

Quasistellar wrote:

ccs wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
I think the only truly "bad" weapon right now is the lascannon, and I'd argue that plasma needs a change (but I know i'd be in the majority saying 1s do a mortal wound instead of outright slaying infantry, plus wound allocation rules would be a problem sometimes).

Question - why would wound allocation be a problem? Nothing wrong with the concept that someone else picks up the smoking plasma weapon after it has had a bit of time to cool down and be functional again...

I think rules as written currently it would be a problem where more than one marine model could take a wound, but it's easily corrected when you change the rule to just "the unit takes a mortal wound" instead.

It wouldn't create a problem. It's simple. You just put a wound marker on the plasma gunner. Further wounds/MW done in general get allocated to a wounded model as normal. Doesn't matter wich wounded model. Further MW generated by future plasma gun failures get applied to the plasma gunner.

But what if the unit had already taken a wound on a different model? But anyway it would be re-written to account for this so it's a non-issue.

You put the wound(s) generated by the plasma fail on the plasma gunner. Yes, you might end up with 2 wounded models. So what? The next time any other damage is done: A) Squad takes damage from enemy fire? Pick one of the wounded guys & proceed normally. Squad now only has 1 wounded model. Proceeding normally you then place the next wound on the remaining wounded guy. OR B) Plasma gunner fries himself a second time? You place the 2nd plasma wound on the plasma gunner & now you only have 1 wounded model....
It's not that hard a concept, or difficult hard to track.

 Irbis wrote:

Try comparing them to xeno gak. It usually costs half of comparable SM weapon and does more damage (looking at you, assault cannon). Then there is the fact that xeno HQs break it even more by being able to combine 2+ BS with high speed/high power weapon spam, option that simply does not exist for SM characters.

Tell you what, you start listing ranged weapons for Space Marine characters and I'll list ranged weapons for Dark Eldar characters. We'll see who runs out of options first.

Okey. Options worth taking on Space marine characters, that don't come build in. Combi weapons ??? The bolters on the outridder bike assuming we consider the mounted chaplain as not a separate unit, but an option upgrade to a foot chaplain?.


GK have more weapon upgrades then marines have for their heroes. Because we both have, and always take, a heavy psycanon and a heavy psi lancer.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
IMO variable damage weapons should not exist. it just adds yet another dice roll to a game that already has too much dice rolling

It is a mechanism to make something that is good against high-wound models bad against models with 1-3 wounds.

But something like the non ad mecha regular lascanon is a horrible anti tank weapon. the very idea that after passing, hit, wound, potential inv on opponents side, you can just roll a 1 or 2 on a -1D target is a very feels bad moment. That is why spaming lloads of d2 or d3 shots is much better then having one d20 shot.

Karol wrote:
But something like the non ad mecha regular lascanon is a horrible anti tank weapon. the very idea that after passing, hit, wound, potential inv on opponents side, you can just roll a 1 or 2 on a -1D target is a very feels bad moment. That is why spaming lloads of d2 or d3 shots is much better then having one d20 shot.

Eeeeeeeeh I'd take a D20 weapon

 vipoid wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

Try comparing them to xeno gak. It usually costs half of comparable SM weapon and does more damage (looking at you, assault cannon). Then there is the fact that xeno HQs break it even more by being able to combine 2+ BS with high speed/high power weapon spam, option that simply does not exist for SM characters.

Tell you what, you start listing ranged weapons for Space Marine characters and I'll list ranged weapons for Dark Eldar characters. We'll see who runs out of options first.

Pretty sure you'll run out of weapons before he runs out of HQ datasheets.

Voss wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

Try comparing them to xeno gak. It usually costs half of comparable SM weapon and does more damage (looking at you, assault cannon). Then there is the fact that xeno HQs break it even more by being able to combine 2+ BS with high speed/high power weapon spam, option that simply does not exist for SM characters.

Tell you what, you start listing ranged weapons for Space Marine characters and I'll list ranged weapons for Dark Eldar characters. We'll see who runs out of options first.

Pretty sure you'll run out of weapons before he runs out of HQ datasheets.

Captain Datasheets, honestly.

Seven Captain Datasheets, not counting unique characters.
Choice of Splinter Pistol, Blast Pistol, or Blaster for Archons.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Voss wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

Try comparing them to xeno gak. It usually costs half of comparable SM weapon and does more damage (looking at you, assault cannon). Then there is the fact that xeno HQs break it even more by being able to combine 2+ BS with high speed/high power weapon spam, option that simply does not exist for SM characters.

Tell you what, you start listing ranged weapons for Space Marine characters and I'll list ranged weapons for Dark Eldar characters. We'll see who runs out of options first.

Pretty sure you'll run out of weapons before he runs out of HQ datasheets.

Captain Datasheets, honestly.

Seven Captain Datasheets, not counting unique characters.
Choice of Splinter Pistol, Blast Pistol, or Blaster for Archons.

Splinter Pistol or Blast Pistol (or Stinger Pistol for the Haemonculus).

The 8th edition codex removed the Blaster option, whilst the 9th edition book deleted the Haemonculus' Hexrifle and Liquifier Gun.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Oh so 2/10 sister can take one, yeah sure, thats the same as doubling the damage of every model in a gk list.

I don’t think anyone was saying make all storm bolters D2.

Also, Dominions can take 4. There’s also a stratagem that gives them 2 mortals on exploding 6’s to hit. It’s the entire reason players might take 1 Dominion squad.

Jarms48 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Oh so 2/10 sister can take one, yeah sure, thats the same as doubling the damage of every model in a gk list.

I don’t think anyone was saying make all storm bolters D2.

Also, Dominions can take 4. There’s also a stratagem that gives them 2 mortals on exploding 6’s to hit. It’s the entire reason players might take 1 Dominion squad.

Karol was talking about making all GK stormbolters AP-2 and D2

Karol wrote:
Well it is the illusion of good game based on some skew roll winning you game. Which can work if someone plays 1-2 games per month. the a player with a few lucky rolls can have fun for a year. Problems start when you are playing 5-6 games per week, plus potential training games. Then the rolls avarge out and you see what is efficient and what is not.

I've always believed that 40k works best as a casual, beer and pretzels type of game, once you start trying to be serious about it, it just kinda falls apart. Codex creep, release schedules, questionable balancing choices based on sales quotas, excessively random weapons, etc simply have no place in a competitive game.

Don't misunderstand me, I love the game and the hobby as a whole, but only as a fun game, nothing more.

Alcibiades wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
IMO variable damage weapons should not exist. it just adds yet another dice roll to a game that already has too much dice rolling

It is a mechanism to make something that is good against high-wound models bad against models with 1-3 wounds.

And it ends up making it bad against high wounds models too. And lascannons SHOULD be able to one shot terminators

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Karol was talking about making all GK stormbolters AP-2 and D2

That's just silly. AP-1 bolters sure. They're terribly bad now. But AP-2 and damage 2 is crazy.

Jarms48 wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Karol was talking about making all GK stormbolters AP-2 and D2

That's just silly. AP-1 bolters sure. They're terribly bad now. But AP-2 and damage 2 is crazy.

thats because Karol bought a gak pile for an army and wants to make them OP

Jarms48 wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Karol was talking about making all GK stormbolters AP-2 and D2

That's just silly. AP-1 bolters sure. They're terribly bad now. But AP-2 and damage 2 is crazy.

Karol doesn’t care about balance, and doesn’t believe anyone does.

 vipoid wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

Try comparing them to xeno gak. It usually costs half of comparable SM weapon and does more damage (looking at you, assault cannon). Then there is the fact that xeno HQs break it even more by being able to combine 2+ BS with high speed/high power weapon spam, option that simply does not exist for SM characters.

Tell you what, you start listing ranged weapons for Space Marine characters and I'll list ranged weapons for Dark Eldar characters. We'll see who runs out of options first.

Speaking of characters, I will trade you a Master Crafted Special Issued Bolt Pistol for the Competitive Edge Warlord Trait.

Just saying.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:

Speaking of characters, I will trade you a Master Crafted Special Issued Bolt Pistol for the Competitive Edge Warlord Trait.

Just saying.

I’ll trade you my Scions Blessed Bolt Pistol for anything else… Lol.