Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
You're allowed to like them, but that doesn't mean they're a faithful updated representation of the thing they're claimed to be.

That's kind of how I'm seeing these LoV releases.

Like the big armoured guys look cool, but they look cool because they're big armoured guys. Beyond that they're painfully generic, don't look like something that's part of 40k and certainly don't scream "Squat!" at me.

The moonbuggy, for which NASA-Punk is by far the single best descriptor of the aesthetic I have ever heard, is something I hate as a Squat vehicle, but something that seems wonderful as a generic future buggy that I'd use as terrain on a "Space Port/Cargo Port" board, or in an Ash Wastes scenario or something. If it was't for the fact that it is undoubtedly going to cost as much as one of these, I'd be up for getting one.

Ain't nuthin' Squat about it, though!

I'm beginning to wonder what people who wanted "True Squats" actually wanted.

Did you guys basically want Fantasy Dwarves carrying axes, hammers, and guns? That's definitely a way to go, but also seems incredibly lazy.

Did you want a return of the weird biker gang motif?

Did you want a 3-foot long Land Train based on the Epic model?

Like I pointed out before, most armies have been turned into something different in the last 25+ years. I don't see anyone griping about how "This isn't Imperial Guard, they don't have Land Speeders, anti-grave bikers, or Land Raiders."

 cuda1179 wrote:
I'm beginning to wonder what people who wanted "True Squats" actually wanted.

But do you tho?
Actually wonder what you said you were wondering?
Because if you really did you would have found that answer about... 75 times already by just READING what "people who wanted "True Squat's"" said, since they have been rather clear on that point.

What I think you are really trying to do here is just make the usual rhetorical post where you can then strawman an answer that's clearly made up with the goal to make "the people who wanted "True Squats"" look stupid.

But in the end you just managed to make an ass of yourself.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

The moonbuggy, for which NASA-Punk is by far the single best descriptor of the aesthetic I have ever heard, is something I hate as a Squat vehicle, but something that seems wonderful as a generic future buggy that I'd use as terrain on a "Space Port/Cargo Port" board, or in an Ash Wastes scenario or something.

You just made me realize where that buggy would fit perfectly.
In generic scifi videogame like Mass Effect, NomanSky or Starfield.

 cuda1179 wrote:
I'm beginning to wonder what people who wanted "True Squats" actually wanted.

Did you guys basically want Fantasy Dwarves carrying axes, hammers, and guns? That's definitely a way to go, but also seems incredibly lazy.

Did you want a return of the weird biker gang motif?

Did you want a 3-foot long Land Train based on the Epic model?

Like I pointed out before, most armies have been turned into something different in the last 25+ years. I don't see anyone griping about how "This isn't Imperial Guard, they don't have Land Speeders, anti-grave bikers, or Land Raiders."

That's.. honestly just weird. Most people grasp that early GW had limited production for vehicle kits, so what existed were shared during the Rogue Trader days. They weren't signatures of the army, they were just the vehicle kits that existed.

But anyone can recognize very well that the infantry designs really haven't changed that much. Cadians still draw from the original IG plastics, eldar are still in armored bodysuits with elongated helmets, Mk6 and 7 space marines are still around (now more than ever), and so on. Tyranids have probably diverged the most, but termagants are still heavily based on the tyranid warrior art in the RT rulebook.

 cuda1179 wrote:
I'm beginning to wonder what people who wanted "True Squats" actually wanted.

Did you guys basically want Fantasy Dwarves carrying axes, hammers, and guns? That's definitely a way to go, but also seems incredibly lazy.

Did you want a return of the weird biker gang motif?

Did you want a 3-foot long Land Train based on the Epic model?

Like I pointed out before, most armies have been turned into something different in the last 25+ years. I don't see anyone griping about how "This isn't Imperial Guard, they don't have Land Speeders, anti-grave bikers, or Land Raiders."

I reckon that’s exactly what they wanted, and short space vikings in space, who mine. Mostly they just wanted to have a good moan. Most have probably never seen a squat model let alone played with or against them. Most have probably not read anything about them outside of memes and wiki pages. Most probably don’t care that squats are back at all. They just want to gripe about how GW did them bad again. They might not like the models, but that doesn’t mean they are wrong.

And fyi, my guard army still has a jet bike and a land speeder.

Andykp wrote:

 silverstu wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:
So we got a big part of the army revealed already not sure what to expect more at this point in time. Maybe some characters and exosuit?

We have

Infantry
Heavy infantry
scout biker
Vehicle

I have a gut feeling we will probably get a 5 man scout snipers.

Well there’s the Hekaton Land Fortress to come. The Beserks as well, which will be interesting. Also maybe some heavy weapon infantry? Maybe an update on the thunderers with some of the weapons they showcased in the art?
I’d love a walker as well, hard to tell how big the initial release will be. I’m thinking they might show a character next if they don’t show the whole army set that’s expected.

Does everyone think the Land fortress will be mobile, I hope so.

I will probably not get the big kit at all, but if you are potentially thinking like a huge base terrain piece, lunar base of some sorts... thats interesting.
Im getting the vibes that the Legion is like an exploration force with scouts first and then bring the troops for heavy duty. So a temporary base HQ would not be that far off from this theme.

Looks like that at the pace of 1 reveal a week we are still in for several weeks of reveals. I dont clearly remember the Tau release but seems like they are fleshing out a lot of minis!

Interesting just saying "NASApunk" makes me like the range more. Not sure it totally works for all the models - but I can sort of see clearer what they were going for if that's the intended direction.

Tyel wrote:
Interesting just saying "NASApunk" makes me like the range more. Not sure it totally works for all the models - but I can sort of see clearer what they were going for if that's the intended direction.

It's been so refreshing to build up along this Puzzle that GW created for the Legion concepts. Loving it, we literally have no way to guess how the next kit will look like and makes our brains imagine new possibilities and concept art etc.

When you say NASApunk I also get all warm and fuzzy and go on checking art for Starfield and such. BTW if they release a drop ship like starfield concepts I would rethink actually getting a big Kit. XD XD

So much salt...

My view on the whole Squat thing is this...

Back in the '80s I started collecting the Squats but even back then, I didn't like the bikes. Everything else, I was cool with.

I viewed them as a mercenary force that later became part of the Imperium and when they did, I liked them better because they became more uniform.

Then... they disappeared. This was a time where I wasn't gaming/collecting for quite a while so I wasn't too bothered. Then I started getting back into things and wanted a Squat army again... but there were no codexes or miniatures for them... just the old stuff. I decided that I'd pick the Astra Militarum and use the old, '80s plastic Squats as a proxy... which is what I have done. I've also done similar with a full range of "home sculpted" Space Dwarfs that fit in perfectly with the Astra Militarum codex.

The beauty of the big gap (to me) is the amount of imagination, effort and enjoyment that so many people put into creating Squat armies as proxies or to fit in with fan codexes... the amount of freedom that it provided.

Then... GW "stopped the clock" and the new range(s) started to appear.

At NO POINT did I expect GW to re-hash an idea that they weren't too enthusiastic about 30+ years ago. I expected them to go in a different direction with the miniatures... and they didn't disappoint.

I like certain aspects of the new stuff and I dislike other aspects... as I do with all of the ranges (you can't like everything, can you?) ... but I completely get the polarised opinions that are flying about in this post. A lot of people who have been piling in YEARS of work into massive Squat armies, of their own design, were likely to have wanted to just slot their work in with a new codex and compatible miniatures... and on the flip side, I completely understand that a lot of people were hoping for something different because of the lack of direction of the original range.

The thing is... there is no right or wrong here... just different opinions. HOWEVER, there is always the option of jumping on board and enjoying the ride OR taking a different path.

I will be doing both. I will continue with my two "old" Squat armies that are tailored to the Astra Militarum codex and (at some point... when I've seen more of the range(s)), I will be buying the Codex and possibly starting a new army... or using the new miniatures to fit in with a Demiurg army that I have been building as well.

I feel sad at all the disappointment that some people are feeling but it was inevitable that there would be winners and losers.

 Inso wrote:
So much salt...

My view on the whole Squat thing is this...

Back in the '80s I started collecting the Squats but even back then, I didn't like the bikes. Everything else, I was cool with.

I viewed them as a mercenary force that later became part of the Imperium and when they did, I liked them better because they became more uniform.

Then... they disappeared. This was a time where I wasn't gaming/collecting for quite a while so I wasn't too bothered. Then I started getting back into things and wanted a Squat army again... but there were no codexes or miniatures for them... just the old stuff. I decided that I'd pick the Astra Militarum and use the old, '80s plastic Squats as a proxy... which is what I have done. I've also done similar with a full range of "home sculpted" Space Dwarfs that fit in perfectly with the Astra Militarum codex.

The beauty of the big gap (to me) is the amount of imagination, effort and enjoyment that so many people put into creating Squat armies as proxies or to fit in with fan codexes... the amount of freedom that it provided.

Then... GW "stopped the clock" and the new range(s) started to appear.

At NO POINT did I expect GW to re-hash an idea that they weren't too enthusiastic about 30+ years ago. I expected them to go in a different direction with the miniatures... and they didn't disappoint.

I like certain aspects of the new stuff and I dislike other aspects... as I do with all of the ranges (you can't like everything, can you?) ... but I completely get the polarised opinions that are flying about in this post. A lot of people who have been piling in YEARS of work into massive Squat armies, of their own design, were likely to have wanted to just slot their work in with a new codex and compatible miniatures... and on the flip side, I completely understand that a lot of people were hoping for something different because of the lack of direction of the original range.

The thing is... there is no right or wrong here... just different opinions. HOWEVER, there is always the option of jumping on board and enjoying the ride OR taking a different path.

I will be doing both. I will continue with my two "old" Squat armies that are tailored to the Astra Militarum codex and (at some point... when I've seen more of the range(s)), I will be buying the Codex and possibly starting a new army... or using the new miniatures to fit in with a Demiurg army that I have been building as well.

I feel sad at all the disappointment that some people are feeling but it was inevitable that there would be winners and losers.

Love your retro style models, very nostalgia inducing. The biker bits were always my least favourite bit of squats too, the more military side was always my bag. Will you ever get the shop up and running again?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NAVARRO wrote:

Tyel wrote:
Interesting just saying "NASApunk" makes me like the range more. Not sure it totally works for all the models - but I can sort of see clearer what they were going for if that's the intended direction.

It's been so refreshing to build up along this Puzzle that GW created for the Legion concepts. Loving it, we literally have no way to guess how the next kit will look like and makes our brains imagine new possibilities and concept art etc.

When you say NASApunk I also get all warm and fuzzy and go on checking art for Starfield and such. BTW if they release a drop ship like starfield concepts I would rethink actually getting a big Kit. XD XD

For me it’s just right in the drip feed, enough to keep me guess and hoping for more, any less and it’d be annoying as hell. Only bit I’m less keen on is the robot-squats fluff and models but they look very much optional and you never know the fluff might grow on me, I do like the idea that they are treated exactly like realm dwarves.

Andykp wrote:
Love your retro style models, very nostalgia inducing. The biker bits were always my least favourite bit of squats too, the more military side was always my bag. Will you ever get the shop up and running again?

Most of my Squats can be bought through Macrocosm miniatures... and it is very unlikely that I will ever take on the burden of running an on-line shop again. It's a pain.

 Inso wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Love your retro style models, very nostalgia inducing. The biker bits were always my least favourite bit of squats too, the more military side was always my bag. Will you ever get the shop up and running again?

Most of my Squats can be bought through Macrocosm miniatures... and it is very unlikely that I will ever take on the burden of running an on-line shop again. It's a pain.

Can imagine. Great skills on the green stuff. I will have a look at place though. Fancy some of those for a 2nd edition army in building.

 (HN) wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
I'm beginning to wonder what people who wanted "True Squats" actually wanted.

But do you tho?
Actually wonder what you said you were wondering?
Because if you really did you would have found that answer about... 75 times already by just READING what "people who wanted "True Squat's"" said, since they have been rather clear on that point.

What I think you are really trying to do here is just make the usual rhetorical post where you can then strawman an answer that's clearly made up with the goal to make "the people who wanted "True Squats"" look stupid.

But in the end you just managed to make an ass of yourself.

Considering more than one person has stated they want them to "look more like the old models", but then listed several things the old models DIDN'T have, yes, it makes me wonder if anything GW does will satisfy. I've been known to criticize GW a bit too, but with this release the gripes are all over the place. Everything is either too hot or too cold, and few people have found the baby bear happy place.

 cuda1179 wrote:
I'm beginning to wonder what people who wanted "True Squats" actually wanted.

Did you guys basically want Fantasy Dwarves carrying axes, hammers, and guns? That's definitely a way to go, but also seems incredibly lazy.

Did you want a return of the weird biker gang motif?

Did you want a 3-foot long Land Train based on the Epic model?

Like I pointed out before, most armies have been turned into something different in the last 25+ years. I don't see anyone griping about how "This isn't Imperial Guard, they don't have Land Speeders, anti-grave bikers, or Land Raiders."

I don't know what a 'True Squat' is but personally I'd love to see new models that look like any of:
-The Necromunda bounty hunter. Quilted armor, leather LBE, and flowing beard immediately read to me as 'space dwarf'.
-The Necromunda Squat miners. Subtle glyphs integrated into the design, mining suits combined with power armor, leather belts and slings, enclosed helmets, chunky designs.
-Deep Rock Galactic. Seriously, there's a perfect example of space dwarfs that look like space dwarfs even when they have no exposed beards, hammers, or glyphs thanks to good design language.
-Something fun and different that isn't a Starcraft Marine sans shins. Leather biker space dwarfs was a bit silly, but at least it was a unique twist on the Viking stereotype.

What I'm seeing of the Votann feels generic, like they didn't want to do the Viking stereotype but also couldn't come up with a unique twist either; or like they were designing a conventionally sci-fi faction but decided to tie it in to Squats for nostalgia bait and stronger copyright. I mean, for me it's not that the infantry aren't dwarfy enough, it's that they aren't anything.

The NASApunk vehicle is more interesting though and I'm curious if all the vehicles are leaning in that direction. I like that theme- and could see myself homebrewing some more appropriate infantry and moon buggy bikers to double down on it and axe the vestigial space dwarf identity, if that's what it comes down to.

Dear lord, who came with this NASApunk nonsense? Was that Bethesda's marketing dept, desperate to put a positive spin on Starfield's uninspired visual design?

 His Master's Voice wrote:
Dear lord, who came with this NASApunk nonsense? Was that Bethesda's marketing dept, desperate to put a positive spin on Starfield's uninspired visual design?

I've seen a lot of people using it since Starfield even though It's just a quite typical "modern" sci-fi style, as if that somewhat realistic clean hard sci-fi look wasn't a thing before Starfield decided that it's called NASApunk

cuda1179 wrote:I'm beginning to wonder what people who wanted "True Squats" actually wanted.

Like I pointed out before, most armies have been turned into something different in the last 25+ years. I don't see anyone griping about how "This isn't Imperial Guard, they don't have Land Speeders, anti-grave bikers, or Land Raiders."

I assume that myself and other fans of original squats want something like where squats were left at the beginning of 2nd edition.

I'd add that while much is made of the fact that Squats had bikers, the overall aesthetic is much more of militarized miners.

So yes, we want quilted flak armor and proper helmets. Not entirely unlike this...

derpherp wrote:

I think there are those of us that think that those elements could have been retained and updated in an effective way for a new generation of squats. That the only similarity between original squats and new squats appears to be shortness should be understandably disappointing.

Put another way, many of us with a fondness for RT/2ndEd were probably hoping for new Squats to be as much like the old Squats as new Genestealer Cult is like old Genestealer Cult.

 catbarf wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
I'm beginning to wonder what people who wanted "True Squats" actually wanted.

Did you guys basically want Fantasy Dwarves carrying axes, hammers, and guns? That's definitely a way to go, but also seems incredibly lazy.

Did you want a return of the weird biker gang motif?

Did you want a 3-foot long Land Train based on the Epic model?

Like I pointed out before, most armies have been turned into something different in the last 25+ years. I don't see anyone griping about how "This isn't Imperial Guard, they don't have Land Speeders, anti-grave bikers, or Land Raiders."

I don't know what a 'True Squat' is but personally I'd love to see new models that look like any of:
-The Necromunda bounty hunter. Quilted armor, leather LBE, and flowing beard immediately read to me as 'space dwarf'.
-The Necromunda Squat miners. Subtle glyphs integrated into the design, mining suits combined with power armor, leather belts and slings, enclosed helmets, chunky designs.
-Deep Rock Galactic. Seriously, there's a perfect example of space dwarfs that look like space dwarfs even when they have no exposed beards, hammers, or glyphs thanks to good design language.
-Something fun and different that isn't a Starcraft Marine sans shins. Leather biker space dwarfs was a bit silly, but at least it was a unique on the Viking stereotype.

What I'm seeing of the Votann feels generic, like they didn't want to do the Viking stereotype but also couldn't come up with a unique twist either; or like they were designing a conventionally sci-fi faction but decided to tie it in to Squats for nostalgia bait and stronger copyright. I mean, for me it's not that the infantry aren't dwarfy enough, it's that they aren't anything.

The NASApunk vehicle is more interesting though and I'm curious if all the vehicles are leaning in that direction. I like that theme- and could see myself homebrewing some more appropriate infantry and moon buggy bikers to double down on it and axe the vestigial space dwarf identity, if that's what it comes down to.

This is exactly it, really. They're not an updated direction of the Squats despite being claimed to be Squats....but they don't neccessarily need to be as long as their direction is interesting enough to make up for that and they do the Dwarf archetype justice, which was the reason the Squats were originally removed (because the biker thing absolutely didn't do that). But they're not a very Dwarf-feeling direction on its own with almost none of the expected aesthetic - and yes the originals didn't have much either outside of Epic, but it was still there in some parts and back then, almost nothing had that sort of stuff anyway. Space Marines and Guardsmen didn't have the Aquila outside of leaders and such, so it's not a fair benchmark. That lack of Dwarf would also be alright if again the core identity of them covered for that with something memorable and unique....but the theme they have chosen seems to be a quite standard sci-fi style - which still looks good on its own and something like the Sagitaur looks great, it's just when that's attached to the Dwarf archetype and doesn't really make up for those other parts that are missing, it feels like such a shame to have 40ks Space Dwarfs be what would be in any other setting the style of the generic high-tech futuristic human faction.

Like, Look at the Dvar From Age of Wonders Planetfall:





They're not a typical Dwarf with nordic runes and all that, but they have an awesome unique direction of Soviet Dieselpunk Dwarfs with their units in such a way that inherently gives that bulky harsh industrial vibe that feels very suitable. You can do something different and new with them, it's not such a locked-in thing that there's no room to do anything other than the usual Runes and metalwork decoration and all that. The lack of that is only really a problem because of the relatively bland style they've gone for.

 Eilif wrote:

cuda1179 wrote:I'm beginning to wonder what people who wanted "True Squats" actually wanted.

Like I pointed out before, most armies have been turned into something different in the last 25+ years. I don't see anyone griping about how "This isn't Imperial Guard, they don't have Land Speeders, anti-grave bikers, or Land Raiders."

I assume that myself and other fans of original squats want something like where squats were left at the beginning of 2nd edition.

I'd add that while much is made of the fact that Squats had bikers, the overall aesthetic is much more of militarized miners.

So yes, we want quilted flak armor and proper helmets. Not entirely unlike this...

derpherp wrote:

I think there are those of us that think that those elements could have been retained and updated in an effective way for a new generation of squats That the only similarity between original squats and new squats appears to be shortness should be understandably disappointing.

Put another way, many of us with a fondness for RT/2ndEd were probably hoping for new Squats to be as much like the old Squats as new Genestealer Cult is like old Genestealer Cult.

I'm sure this'll just get brushed off as "Boring, you just wanted Fantasy Dwarfs in Space!" and/or These new and different, that's better just because!" like every other attempt at explaining why people are disappointed at such a big discrepancy has been.

 cuda1179 wrote:


Considering more than one person has stated they want them to "look more like the old models", but then listed several things the old models DIDN'T have, yes, it makes me wonder if anything GW does will satisfy. I've been known to criticize GW a bit too, but with this release the gripes are all over the place. Everything is either too hot or too cold, and few people have found the baby bear happy place.

I know right.

The community asked for squats back, and while they aren't the same look but an evolution the kin are still more Dwarfy on average than the original squats with more tropey dwarf stuff on them than the original squats, so any one who said: "I want the squats back" Who is also saying: "They aren't dwarfy enough" is just straight up full of gak.

In the end we aren't going to make the designs change. It's too late. So it does seem like an exercise in tedious repetition.

Can't please everyone of course, but outside this forum they seem to be being broadly well received. personally I think I'll end up kit bashing and painting some extra runes onto them and probably going with more sunglasses and beards from the sprue.

Apparently we are getting a second new Votann vehicle shown this week. Not today it seems, so probably tomorrow since sunday tends to be for pre-order articles?

Hopefully it impresses. I'm Hoping for something really industrial and heavy with massive tracks, something a bit less clean and more mining and drilling, like some parts of the ATV. Something on a level with the Baneblade for size would be amazing.

Fingers crossed.

 cuda1179 wrote:

 (HN) wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
I'm beginning to wonder what people who wanted "True Squats" actually wanted.

But do you tho?
Actually wonder what you said you were wondering?
Because if you really did you would have found that answer about... 75 times already by just READING what "people who wanted "True Squat's"" said, since they have been rather clear on that point.

What I think you are really trying to do here is just make the usual rhetorical post where you can then strawman an answer that's clearly made up with the goal to make "the people who wanted "True Squats"" look stupid.

But in the end you just managed to make an ass of yourself.

Considering more than one person has stated they want them to "look more like the old models", but then listed several things the old models DIDN'T have

Quotes needed, because that sounds like things are being misconstrued yet again.

 Eilif wrote:

cuda1179 wrote:I'm beginning to wonder what people who wanted "True Squats" actually wanted.

Like I pointed out before, most armies have been turned into something different in the last 25+ years. I don't see anyone griping about how "This isn't Imperial Guard, they don't have Land Speeders, anti-grave bikers, or Land Raiders."

I assume that myself and other fans of original squats want something like where squats were left at the beginning of 2nd edition.

I'd add that while much is made of the fact that Squats had bikers, the overall aesthetic is much more of militarized miners.

So yes, we want quilted flak armor and proper helmets. Not entirely unlike this...

derpherp wrote:

I think there are those of us that think that those elements could have been retained and updated in an effective way for a new generation of squats. That the only similarity between original squats and new squats appears to be shortness should be understandably disappointing.

Put another way, many of us with a fondness for RT/2ndEd were probably hoping for new Squats to be as much like the old Squats as new Genestealer Cult is like old Genestealer Cult.

I love old squats, and the idea of them being brought back like the genestealer cult was is an intriguing and clever way to put it, I would prefer a rehash of the old style squats than the short space Viking miner dwarf covered in runes (see eihnjar or whatever they are called). But equally had they done that there would have been swathes of people on here saying how dull and unimaginative it was and how disappointing it was they didn’t try anything new with them. (And some of them would have been the same people complaining about them not doing that).

Regardless, that’s not what we have got. They have gone a different direction, now the squats (LoV or whatever you want to call them) as they are now are not constrained by the admech and their restrictive ways, so it makes sense their gear is more high tech and less industrial. The imperium do industrial very well, gc cults do miners and industrial very well. The guard do basic military very well. I can see why they went in this direction rather than just make “short guardsmen” which is what old squats would be if redone as was.

None of this explains the demands for more dwarfish runes and stuff but also the demand that they are more like the old models. Those two are not the samething, they can’t have more dwarfy bits on and be like the old models. The worst result would have been a mash up of these two, which is that awful excuse for a squat in necromunda. IMO.

Voss wrote:

That's.. honestly just weird. Most people grasp that early GW had limited production for vehicle kits, so what existed were shared during the Rogue Trader days. They weren't signatures of the army, they were just the vehicle kits that existed.

.

You say this like it is refuting what I wrote, when it's just proving it. Every army grew out of the "limited vehicle kits", except the squats because they never got anything else. Now they are, and people are surprised with it being different. This is no different from the visual style changing when Dark Eldar, Primaris, Eldar, or Chaos got expanded. It's not what used to be, but that doesn't make it wrong.

 cuda1179 wrote:

Voss wrote:

That's.. honestly just weird. Most people grasp that early GW had limited production for vehicle kits, so what existed were shared during the Rogue Trader days. They weren't signatures of the army, they were just the vehicle kits that existed.

.

You say this like it is refuting what I wrote, when it's just proving it. Every army grew out of the "limited vehicle kits", except the squats because they never got anything else. Now they are, and people are surprised with it being different. This is no different from the visual style changing when Dark Eldar, Primaris, Eldar, or Chaos got expanded. It's not what used to be, but that doesn't make it wrong.

Those didn't go from one style of thing to something was the complete opposite and not even slightly similar to what they were, however.

 Eilif wrote:

cuda1179 wrote:I'm beginning to wonder what people who wanted "True Squats" actually wanted.

Like I pointed out before, most armies have been turned into something different in the last 25+ years. I don't see anyone griping about how "This isn't Imperial Guard, they don't have Land Speeders, anti-grave bikers, or Land Raiders."

I assume that myself and other fans of original squats want something like where squats were left at the beginning of 2nd edition.

I'd add that while much is made of the fact that Squats had bikers, the overall aesthetic is much more of militarized miners.

So yes, we want quilted flak armor and proper helmets. Not entirely unlike this...

derpherp wrote:

I think there are those of us that think that those elements could have been retained and updated in an effective way for a new generation of squats. That the only similarity between original squats and new squats appears to be shortness should be understandably disappointing.

Put another way, many of us with a fondness for RT/2ndEd were probably hoping for new Squats to be as much like the old Squats as new Genestealer Cult is like old Genestealer Cult.

Well, put. I personally like the new aesthetic, but I would have preferred a gritter, more lived in look than the NasaPunk retro futurism. Still, I think the new stuff looks great.

I really think GW wasn't lying when they said thaty couldn't figure out how to make the old aesthetic work.

 cuda1179 wrote:

Voss wrote:

That's.. honestly just weird. Most people grasp that early GW had limited production for vehicle kits, so what existed were shared during the Rogue Trader days. They weren't signatures of the army, they were just the vehicle kits that existed.

.

You say this like it is refuting what I wrote, when it's just proving it. Every army grew out of the "limited vehicle kits", except the squats because they never got anything else. Now they are, and people are surprised with it being different. This is no different from the visual style changing when Dark Eldar, Primaris, Eldar, or Chaos got expanded. It's not what used to be, but that doesn't make it wrong.

No. 'The army didn't change, they just stopped sharing vehicle kits' doesn't prove anything like what you wrote. Vehicles were a side product, not anything any army 'grew out of'

Eldar literally still use decades old aspect warrior models for more than half the aspects. Even Primaris take most of their 'unique' visual cues from Mk 4 armor, and kept much of the basics (shoulder pads, knees) of mark 7.
Chaos and dark eldar still draw from the basics of their design back and the beginnings of their ranges. Like or dislike the new squats, they largely do not. They're a brand new range, with very little connecting them to what came before. The name change is honestly weird, because most of what's pushing the momentum here is the nostalgia button push of 'new squats.'

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:

Voss wrote:

That's.. honestly just weird. Most people grasp that early GW had limited production for vehicle kits, so what existed were shared during the Rogue Trader days. They weren't signatures of the army, they were just the vehicle kits that existed.

.

You say this like it is refuting what I wrote, when it's just proving it. Every army grew out of the "limited vehicle kits", except the squats because they never got anything else. Now they are, and people are surprised with it being different. This is no different from the visual style changing when Dark Eldar, Primaris, Eldar, or Chaos got expanded. It's not what used to be, but that doesn't make it wrong.

Those didn't go from one style of thing to something was the complete opposite and not even slightly similar to what they were, however.

So, Harlequins didn't go from LandRaiders to small hover cars?

 cuda1179 wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:

Voss wrote:

That's.. honestly just weird. Most people grasp that early GW had limited production for vehicle kits, so what existed were shared during the Rogue Trader days. They weren't signatures of the army, they were just the vehicle kits that existed.

.

You say this like it is refuting what I wrote, when it's just proving it. Every army grew out of the "limited vehicle kits", except the squats because they never got anything else. Now they are, and people are surprised with it being different. This is no different from the visual style changing when Dark Eldar, Primaris, Eldar, or Chaos got expanded. It's not what used to be, but that doesn't make it wrong.

Those didn't go from one style of thing to something was the complete opposite and not even slightly similar to what they were, however.

So, Harlequins didn't go from LandRaiders to small hover cars?

Strange how you'll go from replying to one person acknowledging that various armies had shared vehicle kits because of production related concerns and that those weren't necessarily meant to be an actual part of that army's direction but then in the next reply shift to acting like those vehicles were meant to be an establishing part of their aesthetic.

The Eldar/Harlequin side of the Eldar/Harlequins didn't completely change direction.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:

Voss wrote:

That's.. honestly just weird. Most people grasp that early GW had limited production for vehicle kits, so what existed were shared during the Rogue Trader days. They weren't signatures of the army, they were just the vehicle kits that existed.

.

You say this like it is refuting what I wrote, when it's just proving it. Every army grew out of the "limited vehicle kits", except the squats because they never got anything else. Now they are, and people are surprised with it being different. This is no different from the visual style changing when Dark Eldar, Primaris, Eldar, or Chaos got expanded. It's not what used to be, but that doesn't make it wrong.

Those didn't go from one style of thing to something was the complete opposite and not even slightly similar to what they were, however.

So, Harlequins didn't go from LandRaiders to small hover cars?

Strange how you'll go from replying to one person acknowledging that various armies had shared vehicle kits because of production related concerns and that those weren't necessarily meant to be an actual part of that army's direction but then in the next reply shift to acting like those vehicles were meant to be an establishing part of their aesthetic.

The Eldar/Harlequin side of the Eldar/Harlequins didn't completely change direction.

I guess I misinterpreted the meaning of the post. To reiterate, Squats, like most of the armies at the end of 2nd edition, were not really all that fleshed-out model wise. Sure, they had infantry, but no real dedicated vehicles unto themselves outside of their Epic scale range. Forgetting the infantry for now, there really wasn't anything for Squats until now, so saying this doesn't fit their vehicular theme from 2nd edition is a bit odd. As for the infantry, I actually agree with many of those arguing against me. I'd have preferred the padded-quilted armor look. I stated as much just a couple posts back. The new armor isn't "bad" though, and we haven't seen the whole range yet, so perhaps the quilted armor look might still be there somewhere.

Forgetting the infantry for now, there really wasn't anything for Squats until now, so saying this doesn't fit their vehicular theme from 2nd edition is a bit odd.

I mean... there absolutely was. And someone could certainly argue that the hoverbike does continue some of the themes from the engineering guild bikes. I personally don't think it does it very well, but you can trace themes and concepts (including the piles of gear and small gun, which says the priority is something other than shooting platform)

But Squats had a developed vehicle aesthetic in Epic, and the fact that we know there is a 'Hekaton Land Train' or whatever is obviously a call back to the Epic concepts. Whether it does it justice is up in the air, but they're very obviously pressing the nostalgia button there.

The buggy, on the other hand, doesn't share much of anything with the bikes, trikes or the Epic models. Its just a pretty NASA/Mass Effect/Halo looking lunar buggy, with a big cockpit for the pilot.

Is someone going to make a picture with all the revealed stuff put together in a little army shot or not?
Because I’m still waiting..