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Just a small oddity rather than an issue, but one of them has his arm replaced with a cybernetic....but then an ordinary hand?

 Olthannon wrote:


Elite in the sense of the previous discussion on this thread about whether unarmoured soldiers used to mine in dangerous areas are superior to the basic soldiers in the Leagues armies based on this super fun argument about the realism of 40k, not their location in the codex. WELP.

Arco-flagellants - box of 10, in the Elite section. Heretics given stimulants and cybernetic surgery to make them extra strong killing machines as penance for heresy.

Eldar rangers, box of 5, troops. Some people would think snipers might be Elite? Curious eh?

Wracks - box of 5, troops.

Wyches - box of 10, troops. Used to be Elites in older editions. WOW SO CRAZY.

Tau Stealth suits - only 3 but wow they're troops.

Khorne Bezerkers - pretty elite but uh oh box of 10.

Custodes are a very elite army but they still differentiate between troops and elites and most of those are boxes of 5.

Nice post, just a bit sad that you don't seem to know what "Elite slot" actually means.
It's not about how "higher tier" a unit is, its about how uncommon it is, case and point, units that are pretty close in term of archetype to these guys, Flayed Ones, Repentia, Accroflagellant, the mele berserkers in an army that is not about that at all.

As for the model count, yeah, I don't know wtf you tried to prove here once again, but my point was rather simple : These guys are obviously "Elite slot" because they are only 5 standard mele dudes and don't fit the "standard" of the army. My point was simply that we also risk a cancerous Flayed one case (yaknow, a new unit more in line with today's GW business strategy and not a totally irrelevant one from a different era) with a box of 60 bucks for 5 dudes that you probably want to get by unit of at least 10, maybe even 20.

Now to get to your own point, hard to say if they are "elite" in the sens of special and more important to their kind or not yet, but that lore vomit seem to indicate it's not the case.


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 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Just a small oddity rather than an issue, but one of them has his arm replaced with a cybernetic....but then an ordinary hand?

The top left dude?


Let's be generous and say that it totally could have a robot hand under that glove.

 (HN) wrote:

 Olthannon wrote:


The top left dude?


Let's be generous and say that it totally could have a robot hand under that glove.

Should have included the picture really!

This guy:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
wait until we the the armour save it may be as good as the suits (subdermal plating, bla, bla, adaptions)

and just because they're available as a unit doesn't mean they would be specifically taken along on a military only operation (even if the unit ends up being 'good' and lots of competitive players put them in all their LOV armies)

but attack a LOV mining operation (or somewhere the miners go for their R&R) and out they come to hit things with their awkward power axes (i really don't like the look of those) and concussion fists

You know what protects you better than subdermal plating and adaptations? Subdermal plating and adaptions and wearing your issued armour.

If these augmentations are cheap enough to stick on people who are going to charge forwards half naked, with whatever melee weapons they happened to have to hand, then they are cheap enough to issue to your line troops in addition to their issued equipment. If these augmentations are too expensive to issue to your line troops, they are too expensive to waste on people refusing to wear more armour to protect those augmentations.

It'd be like issuing the Imperial Guard with power armour and having the space marines charge in naked, relying on the expensive genetic modification to protect them.

The link between them, these “beserks”, and the Norse “berserkers”, who were said to have “ rushed forwards without armour, were as mad as dogs or wolves, bit their shields, and were strong as bears or wild oxen, and killed people at a blow, but neither fire nor iron told upon them” isn’t subtle and probably explains the lack of armour.

(I know they probably didn’t actually fight shirtless but in animal skins really but that’s the myth these are based on)

And said berserkers were not kitted out in the clans fancy jewellery and given the finest weapons (being an analogue to kitting someone out with augmentations and cybernetics, a material investment in someone). You don't use resources on suicide troops beyond the bare minimum.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
And said berserkers were not kitted out in the clans fancy jewellery and given the finest weapons (being an analogue to kitting someone out with augmentations and cybernetics, a material investment in someone). You don't use resources on suicide troops beyond the bare minimum.

Yeah but these are a berserker/miner mash up. You do enhance your miners to make them mine better, but that just happens to make them berserkers, cos drugs and brain damage etc. and cos it’s 40k so that’s fine.

And in reality the berserkers were often royal bodyguards and were most likely quite blinged up as was a vikings way.

If you want to start picking at the scab of “why would someone do x or y in a battle?” Then 40k comes apart pretty quickly.

 (HN) wrote:

Now to get to your own point

Are you like deliberately misreading my post or what lol? It's like you read my post, chopped it up in your head and tried to correct me by regurgitating my own point.

I'm not saying they are elite. I was responding to previous discussion that was further up this miserable thread where other people were making that assumption. The thread of that argument was "why are these elite troops not wearing armour". It doesn't say they are elite. They might be an Elite Slot. But they aren't elite soldiers.

The other part of my post is pretty straight forward, box size is not always indicative of a unit being "elite".

So being new to HH (I'm only on book 6), isnt Cthonia the planet Horus and the Luna Wolves come from? Is this the same planet?

 TalonZahn wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 TalonZahn wrote:
Literally hot trash.

From a planet that was destroyed 10k years ago.

Bloody hell.

Tell me you’re just here to whine and haven’t read anything pertaining to your chosen whine without telling me you’re just here to whine and haven’t read anything pertaining to your chosen whine.

Please grace me with your intelligence beyond what GW has written in their articles.

Convince me that highly augmented Cthonian miners survived and thrived over 10k years of work in highly dangerous environs and wars with other Guilds.

Even if you do that, they still look like hot garbage.

To you.

Personally, I think they're quite sexy miniatures. Love the axes more than the hammers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
And said berserkers were not kitted out in the clans fancy jewellery and given the finest weapons (being an analogue to kitting someone out with augmentations and cybernetics, a material investment in someone). You don't use resources on suicide troops beyond the bare minimum.

Someone should tell that to the Russian Army.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Seeing as you can prove anything with facts? Do I win £5?

Said facts, with which I’ll prove you’re just here to whine and thus claim my hypothetical £5 wrote: The Cthonian Mining Guilds are particularly powerful, embodying the belligerent acquisitiveness of the Kin. Fearless in the cause of locating, securing, and harvesting resources for their race, the Cthonians think nothing of braving environments so extreme that even other Kin would baulk at their hazards. You can expect to hear more about this particular Guild – and its much-modified members – soon enough.

There’s more from the source article here for you to roundly ignore too.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/07/28/lore-of-the-votann-who-are-the-guilds/

That doesn't prove anything, lol...

I did read it long before you posted and you should have at least pointed out their cloning.

Which of course explains why the look like they have a Syndrome.

Although cloning hasn't worked out ever in the history of 40k, but I'm sure it's kept these "hard chargers" alive for 10k years after their source material was wiped out.

 GrosseSax wrote:
So being new to HH (I'm only on book 6), isnt Cthonia the planet Horus and the Luna Wolves come from? Is this the same planet?

I don't see a planet mentioned. Cthonic or chthonic is just a word. It's like barbaric - Barbarus or prosperous - Prospero.

So pretty much...

But shorter and moar powa tubes.

 Olthannon wrote:
I'm not saying they are elite. I was responding to previous discussion that was further up this miserable thread where other people were making that assumption. The thread of that argument was "why are these elite troops not wearing armour". It doesn't say they are elite. They might be an Elite Slot. But they aren't elite soldiers.

On that point, while it's not mentioned one way or another, I'd argue that by the rules of the setting there's a good chance of the berserkers being elite troops. Squats are made out to be somewhat sensible and pragmatic as a baseline. While close combat is a common thing in 40k, going all out and equipping only melee weapons would be considered more badass than mixed troops that fight at range but are still capable in melee. Similarly, going shirtless in an otherwise fully armored army looks totally badass.

Combine that with berserkers not being the baseline troops, I'd argue lower number but badass troops fit the criteria for elite troops fairly decently.

I'd like to think they'll be 18-25 points per model and worth that in rules. More wounds, attacks, FNPs etc.

But yes, they could be just "squat stat line with equivalent of thunderhammer", costing something like 13-14 points a model, and as such a bit of a joke when a box costs £35 or something.

Tyel wrote:
I'd like to think they'll be 18-25 points per model and worth that in rules. More wounds, attacks, FNPs etc.

But yes, they could be just "squat stat line with equivalent of thunderhammer", costing something like 13-14 points a model, and as such a bit of a joke when a box costs £35 or something.

They have honestly no reason to be 2W. They could get a FNP but no wound, and honestly I'd be surprised if they come even close to the point cost of assault intercessors.
They'll probably end up around 15 points if we are lucky, which really makes me smell the Flayed Ones 2.0, especially if their squad size is anything above 10 (but even at 10, paying £70 for a 150 point unit is going to be pretty insulting.

I just don't get why a meritocracy so focused on efficiency, preventing needless losses, and seemingly being all around no-nonsense and reasonable, would send valuable members of their society, basically naked, at their enemy's frontline full of guns that reduce humans to atoms/mush/thin slices/chunky salsa in seconds.

 (HN) wrote:
They have honestly no reason to be 2W. They could get a FNP but no wound, and honestly I'd be surprised if they come even close to the point cost of assault intercessors.
They'll probably end up around 15 points if we are lucky, which really makes me smell the Flayed Ones 2.0, especially if their squad size is anything above 10 (but even at 10, paying £70 for a 150 point unit is going to be pretty insulting.

I guess it depends. Incubi are £35 for 5 models - and were 16 points at the outset. That didn't seem too bad, because 5 guys can blend almost everything. By contrast 5 flayed ones might kill a marine.

But then Incubi are also incredibly fast and lethal. These guys seem likely to be slow. Even if say Cyberstims gave you baked in advance and charge.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
I just don't get why a meritocracy so focused on efficiency, preventing needless losses, and seemingly being all around no-nonsense and reasonable, would send valuable members of their society, basically naked, at their enemy's frontline full of guns that reduce humans to atoms/mush/thin slices/chunky salsa in seconds.

Don't think too much about the detail.
Don't think too much about why a race of engineered tubmen clones would have male and female.
Don't think too much about the totally logic concept of a clone race that somehow has individuals that all look different from eachothers.
Don't think too much about why a race that can produce functional robots that apparently are just as good as any of their flesh individual wouldn't make use of said tech in a more meaningful way than just "a new teamate in my squad".
Don't think too much about why the most technologically advanced miner race somehow use tools like axes and hammer (not even pickaxes) to mine when low tier alien cultist in imperial mining colonies would have access to mining tool far more efficient.
Don't think too much about the detail man, just look at the minies that can't do a simple pose correctly or adapt an artwork properly and very rough unpolished sketch we call "GW artwork" these days and say you "LUV DEM"!

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
I just don't get why a meritocracy so focused on efficiency, preventing needless losses, and seemingly being all around no-nonsense and reasonable, would send valuable members of their society, basically naked, at their enemy's frontline full of guns that reduce humans to atoms/mush/thin slices/chunky salsa in seconds.

In the setting there is no logical reason to have any close combat equipped troops, armoured or not. Guns in the setting are pretty good. No need to get close with the enemy at all. So if you are prepared to accept swashbuckling on a modern/futuristic battlefield then why not send them in naked if it is is cool. The whole point of close combat troops in 40k is rule of cool. They all make no sense at all. So if you are going to have a close combat troop full of drugs and aping the Norse berserker stereotype of wearing no shirt, the question is, why would they wear armour! Like I said before, don’t pick at the scab of tactical logic in 40k. Very quickly nothing makes sense, at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 (HN) wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
I just don't get why a meritocracy so focused on efficiency, preventing needless losses, and seemingly being all around no-nonsense and reasonable, would send valuable members of their society, basically naked, at their enemy's frontline full of guns that reduce humans to atoms/mush/thin slices/chunky salsa in seconds.

Don't think too much about the detail.
Don't think too much about why a race of engineered tubmen clones would have male and female.
Don't think too much about the totally logic concept of a clone race that somehow has individuals that all look different from eachothers.
Don't think too much about why a race that can produce functional robots that apparently are just as good as any of their flesh individual wouldn't make use of said tech in a more meaningful way than just "a new teamate in my squad".
Don't think too much about why the most technologically advanced miner race somehow use tools like axes and hammer (not even pickaxes) to mine when low tier alien cultist in imperial mining colonies would have access to mining tool far more efficient.
Don't think too much about the detail man, just look at the minies that can't do a simple pose correctly or adapt an artwork properly and very rough unpolished sketch we call "GW artwork" these days and say you "LUV DEM"!

So if you don’t like 40k why are you clogging up this forum with your nonsense?

I'm pretty impressed with them. A box of 2 or 3 would do wonders.

With a unit like this, you need the numbers, or close combat is going to eat these guys up.

Only issue I have is the lack of choices/ different load outs. I'd like to see all fists or all axes, or maybe put the fists on the lead, and the rest have the axes, and a pistol/ close combat weapon option.

How you'd deploy them?
Have a screen unit, then these guys run through after the shooting unit does the casualties. Shooting unit holds fast or pulls back, then this unit charges through into the target unit.

It's pretty effective, the only issue you need worry about is the numbers. You need at least 10 models for this tactic to ALMOST work for you. Otherwise, you are toast in the next phase, and the unit is wiped out by your next turn.


THAT is another issue. The load out. This new unit is showing one of each, does anyone know for sure how many models are coming in this set?

each figure has a different weapon. How does that work in a unit?

 Grot 6 wrote:
I'm pretty impressed with them. A box of 2 or 3 would do wonders.

With a unit like this, you need the numbers, or close combat is going to eat these guys up.

Only issue I have is the lack of choices/ different load outs. I'd like to see all fists or all axes, or maybe put the fists on the lead, and the rest have the axes, and a pistol/ close combat weapon option.

How you'd deploy them?
Have a screen unit, then these guys run through after the shooting unit does the casualties. Shooting unit holds fast or pulls back, then this unit charges through into the target unit.

It's pretty effective, the only issue you need worry about is the numbers. You need at least 10 models for this tactic to ALMOST work for you. Otherwise, you are toast in the next phase, and the unit is wiped out by your next turn.


THAT is another issue. The load out. This new unit is showing one of each, does anyone know for sure how many models are coming in this set?

each figure has a different weapon. How does that work in a unit?

From the photos it looks like there's going to be some weapon options - these seem to be two distinct load-out options for two of the avalible body poses, as indicated by the very similar look of the torso pose and cybernetics, just with an arm and head swap.


My personal bet is that you'll be able to give everyone either an Axe or a Hammer, and give the unit leader the two Power Fists in addition to the other two options.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
I just don't get why a meritocracy so focused on efficiency, preventing needless losses, and seemingly being all around no-nonsense and reasonable, would send valuable members of their society, basically naked, at their enemy's frontline full of guns that reduce humans to atoms/mush/thin slices/chunky salsa in seconds.

Miniatures Team: Here are mining Squats.
Fluff Team: Votaan.
Miniatures Team: Whatever. Figure out how they fit into the fluff.

Andykp wrote:
So if you don’t like 40k why are you clogging up this forum with your nonsense?

Way to not respond to even a single point he made, and then throw in a strawman at the same time. *slow clap*

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
I just don't get why a meritocracy so focused on efficiency, preventing needless losses, and seemingly being all around no-nonsense and reasonable, would send valuable members of their society, basically naked, at their enemy's frontline full of guns that reduce humans to atoms/mush/thin slices/chunky salsa in seconds.

Because sentient creatures are not logical and it's illogical to regard that as paramount when so many other factors are at play.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Geifer wrote:

 Olthannon wrote:
I'm not saying they are elite. I was responding to previous discussion that was further up this miserable thread where other people were making that assumption. The thread of that argument was "why are these elite troops not wearing armour". It doesn't say they are elite. They might be an Elite Slot. But they aren't elite soldiers.

On that point, while it's not mentioned one way or another, I'd argue that by the rules of the setting there's a good chance of the berserkers being elite troops. Squats are made out to be somewhat sensible and pragmatic as a baseline. While close combat is a common thing in 40k, going all out and equipping only melee weapons would be considered more badass than mixed troops that fight at range but are still capable in melee. Similarly, going shirtless in an otherwise fully armored army looks totally badass.

Combine that with berserkers not being the baseline troops, I'd argue lower number but badass troops fit the criteria for elite troops fairly decently.

Also, yes 100%. I agree that they will be an Elite Slot and being badass and whaling on people with huge axes and fists is what 40k is about.

 Olthannon wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
I just don't get why a meritocracy so focused on efficiency, preventing needless losses, and seemingly being all around no-nonsense and reasonable, would send valuable members of their society, basically naked, at their enemy's frontline full of guns that reduce humans to atoms/mush/thin slices/chunky salsa in seconds.

Because sentient creatures are not logical and it's illogical to regard that as paramount when so many other factors are at play.

Counterpoint

Their entire society down to their genes is run and dedicated by AI Supercomputers

Logic and efficiency should be literally their bread and butter.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Their entire society down to their genes is run and dedicated by AI Supercomputers

Logic and efficiency should be literally their bread and butter.

Counter-counterpoint: If you hate 40k so much... something something something!

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 Olthannon wrote:


Because sentient creatures are not logical and it's illogical to regard that as paramount when so many other factors are at play.

Counterpoint

Their entire society down to their genes is run and dedicated by AI Supercomputers

Logic and efficiency should be literally their bread and butter.

A very good point. My thoughts would be thus:

First and foremost, what is logical to someone's realm of thinking is illogical to another. (For instance, arguing the toss about realism and logical action in 40k is illogical to me because the setting says feth that it's magic and spirits. However, other people love it considering this thread is full of it). How we view something might be completely different to a supercomputer 40,000 years in the future with something like 20,000 years of data and experience. I can't remember the exact quote but in the Gotrek and Felix novels, when Gotrek explains some details about the Slayer Oath Felix talks about how utterly alien the Dwarves seem to him as a human in Warhammer. In the novels, Felix is often used as a relatable narrative tool to us as the reader in order to flesh out the story and explain things about the Dwarves to give us an understanding.

We know the supercomputers are failing, are the beserks a new thing perhaps brought about by that? Not sure. Maybe this kind of behaviour is aberrant as a result.

Alternatively, we know the beserks belong to the Cthonian guild. In the other article, it says the guilds are outside the usual bounds of the Leagues, thus perhaps this is common behaviour to guilders who are clearly more independent.

Other option: which was what somebody said before I'll edit this when I go back and check.

It was this:

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Maybe they're flesh based Votanites who can see the writing on the wall that the AIs are eventually going to end up replacing all of them with machines,

they can't really vocalise this, it's just not something they're culturally able to conceptualise, but deep down in their subconcious the idea is there

so they drink, they do stims, they replace bits with bionics and they 'mine' smashing away at solid rock with power axes, concussion gauntlets and other objects that aren't really suitable but make they feel better, more Kyn-like as it were,

and the rest of society lets them get on with it, after all they're fellow Kyn, and if it makes them happy all the better, and the real mining can be done by more of the Metal-Kyn

and when there's real fighting to be done the berserkers are happy to fight (squishy living things are more satisfying to smash than rock), and after all they know in their hearts they aren't really doing anything useful normally after all so dying in battle at least gives them a real purpose

Which I love, really emblematic of the struggle of the miners and workers in general against mechanisation and the loss of their livelihood to machines. I went back to exalt this because really it's a superb idea. Even if it isn't what GW go with for the background of the beserks this is how I'll think of it in my head.

Bottom line, we don't know anything really about Kyn society to really ascribe logical traits to how they function.

Note that even clones are not necessarily visually identical due to the way gene expression is modified by even the slightest change in the environment


as these two clones (Ken and Henry) of the dog Melvin shows

so even if there are a relatively small pool of clone geneotypes (and any smart AI would still have 1000s as variability is really important when you come up against a new disease or environment) you'll probably see clone brothers/sisters looking similar but not identical

Is it just me, or are their cybernetics (the head augments mainly) a bit crude and unsophisticated looking? I expected a sort of relatively neat clean sophisticated style like Delaque cybernetics are but they look like they might have more of that sort of untidy bolted-on Imperial style.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
I just don't get why a meritocracy so focused on efficiency, preventing needless losses, and seemingly being all around no-nonsense and reasonable, would send valuable members of their society, basically naked, at their enemy's frontline full of guns that reduce humans to atoms/mush/thin slices/chunky salsa in seconds.

Miniatures Team: Here are mining Squats.
Fluff Team: Votaan.
Miniatures Team: Whatever. Figure out how they fit into the fluff.

Andykp wrote:
So if you don’t like 40k why are you clogging up this forum with your nonsense?

Way to not respond to even a single point he made, and then throw in a strawman at the same time. *slow clap*

I’d already explained why they aren’t wearing armour above, twice. But good use of “strawman”, way to defeat any argument online. My question to him wasn’t rhetorical, it was a real question.

Andykp wrote:
I’d already explained why they aren’t wearing armour above, twice. But good use of “strawman”, way to defeat any argument online. My question to him wasn’t rhetorical, it was a real question.

Allow me, then, to answer in his stead: liking 40k has never been a prerequisite for posting on these forums. The idea that membership should only be given to sycophants and uncritical consumers is short-sighted and risible. You making that implication is in itself vile and insulting.

I have spoken.