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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/09/02 06:22:27
Subject: Squats return! - Page 11
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Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests
Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.
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I don't think that matters. They did this to Skitarii, and with Plague Marines, and a whole bunch of other things, and it's stupid. Dev Squad was just a simple example.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/09/02 08:15:28
Subject: Re:Squats return! - Page 11
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Using Object Source Lighting
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10-20 is this a swarmy army? Thats not the way I see them at all.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/09/02 08:20:47
Subject: Squats return! - Page 11
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Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon
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It may be down to them having so few units, as a brand new army? This makes some kind of sense to me, but I can’t explain why. Feel free to ignore.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/09/02 08:28:59
Subject: Squats return! - Page 11
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Using Object Source Lighting
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:It may be down to them having so few units, as a brand new army? This makes some kind of sense to me, but I can’t explain why. Feel free to ignore.
Your probably right, its their way to compensate for the lack of units.
Does the Hekaton carry 20? If so we are back to sardine can transports
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/09/02 08:35:35
Subject: Squats return! - Page 11
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Pretty sure the preview article said the "Land Fortress" could carry 12.
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2021-4 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG
My Pile of Potential - updates ongoing...
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote:This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote:You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling. - No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something... |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/09/02 08:39:33
Subject: Re:Squats return! - Page 11
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Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests
Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.
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I thought of that as well. As this book is essentially half a Codex (get ready Votann players to have your Codex invalidated within a year/18 months but swelled with 6+ new models), I fear that these unit sizes are just there to make things appear more numerous than they really are. Dysartes wrote:Pretty sure the preview article said the "Land Fortress" could carry 12.
Yep. 12 "League" Infantry models. Exo-Armour takes up 2. Exo-Frames take up 3. Exo-Defenders take up 5. And finally Tex-Mex takes up 6. I made two of those up. NAVARRO wrote:10-20 is this a swarmy army? Thats not the way I see them at all.
We need to stop thinking of "10" as the starting point for a "swarm" or a "horde". GW has changed the definition of horde in 9th to anything with 6+ models. This is insane. The base-line squad unit for most races in the game is 10-man units and has been since I'm sure before I started playing. 20 is just a large squad. Anything above 20 and all the way up to 30+ is a proper horde, and should be treated as such.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/09/02 08:42:27
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/09/02 08:46:57
Subject: Squats return! - Page 11
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Ancient Space Wolves Venerable Dreadnought
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NAVARRO wrote: Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:It may be down to them having so few units, as a brand new army? This makes some kind of sense to me, but I can’t explain why. Feel free to ignore.
Your probably right, its their way to compensate for the lack of units.
Does the Hekaton carry 20? If so we are back to sardine can transports
Nah, it’s just a double decker. So tempted to paint one up in LT bus livery red now.
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"Three months? I'm going to go crazy …and I'm taking you with me!"
— Vala Mal Doran |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/09/02 08:57:06
Subject: Squats return! - Page 11
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Gavin Thorpe
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So, how about those Magna-Rails?
S9, AP-4, D(D3+3). R24, no Move-and-Fire penalty, Ignore Invuls (of course). On a Wound roll of 6, or through the Eye of the Ancestors, damage spills over to the rest of the squad. You can take 1 per 10 in your basic troops.
With Eye/Strat support, that gun is going to drop 2 MEQs per turn on its own, and it's just 1 model in a 10-man, 130pt squad that still has all the utility you'd expect from his squaddies.
Or the Hekaton variant which is S14, D(2D3+6) which is potentially dropping 10 wounds per shot. On top of the other 14 S6/7, AP-2 D2 shots.
Perhaps I'm panicking early but this seems like a fairly gross escalation in power that doesn't make much sense lorewise.
EDIT: Requires a 6 to wound for the spillover. Not as bad as initially thought but the book has a number of ways to cheat that, namely by targeting enemies with Judgement tokens.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/09/02 09:04:14
WarOne wrote:
At the very peak of his power, Mat Ward stood at the top echelons of the GW hierarchy, second only to Satan in terms of personal power within the company. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/09/02 09:18:23
Subject: Squats return! - Page 11
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Witch Hunter in the Shadows
Aachen
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I think youre indeed panicking a bit considering that gun is kinda equal to the hammerheads railgun, and comparing those two and considering that the hekaton is 230 pts for more durability, much less mobility and decent Transport capacity seems fine to me
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/02 09:18:37
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/09/02 09:29:27
Subject: Squats return! - Page 11
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I could be wrong or grossly underestimating this but one thing I did notice is that there doesn't seem to be a TON of high-AP shooting. The magna rails are obviously mental, but are some of the only AP -4 guns in the codex, and you can't spam them like, say, multi meltas. The only other ones I saw were the 1-shot 2 damage Einhyr ones. There's a smattering of AP -3 and a LOT of -2. This has the potential to struggle into other AoC armies. Doesn't matter if you're auto-wounding if you can't punch through the armour. There's a League that can get +1AP in half range vs JT units, but that isn't a panacea
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/09/02 09:52:54
Subject: Squats return! - Page 11
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Lord of the Fleet
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Twilight Pathways wrote:I could be wrong or grossly underestimating this but one thing I did notice is that there doesn't seem to be a TON of high- AP shooting. The magna rails are obviously mental, but are some of the only AP -4 guns in the codex, and you can't spam them like, say, multi meltas. The only other ones I saw were the 1-shot 2 damage Einhyr ones. There's a smattering of AP -3 and a LOT of -2. This has the potential to struggle into other AoC armies. Doesn't matter if you're auto-wounding if you can't punch through the armour. There's a League that can get +1AP in half range vs JT units, but that isn't a panacea
The only ranged weapon that doesn't have any Ap at all is the Volkite pistol, which is pretty standard. If they scaled down the Ap by 1 across the board for Voltann weapons then I'd be more interested but as it stands they seem pretty unfun to play against if you have a non AoC army.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/09/02 09:53:23
Subject: Squats return! - Page 11
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Gavin Thorpe
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Spitballing some first thoughts:
- Greater Thurian League
- 2 HQ choices: Uthar the Destined and a regular Kahl (210pts)
- 3 Hekaton Land Fortresses with Heavy Magna-Rail Cannons (825pts)
Uthar uses Grim Resolve twice to mark up 2 target units along with 1CP for Appraising Glare. You now have a target with 2 tokens, and a second with 1.
Kahl also uses Grim Resolve to bring both targets up to 2. The League benefit treats them as having 3 tokens each now.
(Alternatively if you want to save CP, use the Kahl to double-up on one of Uthar's targets)
Hekaton1 uses their free reroll for a 75% chance of dumping 10 wounds on the first marked target.
Hekaton2 repeats for 10 wounds on a second target.
Uthar uses Ancestral Fortune to auto-6 Hekaton3's Magna Rail, dumping 10 wounds wherever you want, regardless of marks.
However many Hearthkyn Warriors you want can then play mopup duty, dropping 5 per squad with the same reliability. To say nothing of all the Ion Beamers and other Warriors guns, which combine spectacularly well with tokens thanks to the Ion Storm strat.
It's a gimmick but it does seem to be reliable, and it uses models that were already good in their own right. Throwing out so many Tokens has other benefits as well.
A Thurian list based around stacking Rails, Ions and Tokens seems to dump out an unholy amount of auto/Mortal wounds and stands out as my first impression of the book. This also naturally has better Scoring and mobility than other Votann lists thanks to the League trait and number of transports.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/09/02 10:52:21
WarOne wrote:
At the very peak of his power, Mat Ward stood at the top echelons of the GW hierarchy, second only to Satan in terms of personal power within the company. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/09/02 11:59:19
Subject: Squats return! - Page 11
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I wonder if the Land Fortress was discovered by Arkhan Land and because he was feeling so generous, he only gave the information about how to build it to the squats
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/09/02 12:24:15
Subject: Squats return! - Page 11
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Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan
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GaroRobe wrote:I wonder if the Land Fortress was discovered by Arkhan Land and because he was feeling so generous, he only gave the information about how to build it to the squats
That's a coincidence. The vehicle was actually designed by Erik Fortress, they just happen drive it on the land.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/09/02 12:27:28
Subject: Squats return! - Page 11
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Trazyn's Museum Curator
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cuda1179 wrote:While I am disappointed that you can't have 4 of the same weapon
Oh wow I just noticed that. That is just silly, and you know it's because you don't get multiple special weapons in the box.
Having one of each just looks terrible and doesn't allow you to specialize squads. You know, like how a real force would function.
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What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/09/02 12:42:35
Subject: Re:Squats return! - Page 11
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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It's such a shame that the Hekaton Land Fortress turned out to be a bigger Sagitaur. It was something they could have done so many interesting things with but they what chose really doesn't feel either suitable with the wheels, or like a "Land Fortress" much at all.
Would have been good if it had been something like an armoured Shuttle Crawler as that would have fit with that Nasapunk/Classic sci-fi + exploration vibe
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/09/02 13:03:36
Subject: Re:Squats return! - Page 11
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Huge Bone Giant
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Mentlegen324 wrote:It's such a shame that the Hekaton Land Fortress turned out to be a bigger Sagitaur.
I think half of its problems would have been solved if GW had simply not named it that. Bigger moon buggy would have been just fine being called Mobile Exploration Center (or Mobile Acquisition Center so they can abbreviate it MAC - everybody loves calling things MAC) or Magnaprospector or something. Give it a name that fits the theme.
It's a widespread problem with the new Squats. The fluff is written to make them full on space dwarfs, and a Land Fortress fits the dwarf theme pretty well. But half of the time the fluff is not reflected on the models it was written for.
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Nehekhara lives! Sort of!
Why is the rum always gone? |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/09/02 13:11:56
Subject: Re:Squats return! - Page 11
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Geifer wrote: Mentlegen324 wrote:It's such a shame that the Hekaton Land Fortress turned out to be a bigger Sagitaur.
I think half of its problems would have been solved if GW had simply not named it that. Bigger moon buggy would have been just fine being called Mobile Exploration Center (or Mobile Acquisition Center so they can abbreviate it MAC - everybody loves calling things MAC) or Magnaprospector or something. Give it a name that fits the theme.
It's a widespread problem with the new Squats. The fluff is written to make them full on space dwarfs, and a Land Fortress fits the dwarf theme pretty well. But half of the time the fluff is not reflected on the models it was written for.
I think that's part of it too. The Land Fortress would have felt better if it was named as some sort of mining transport - The Sagitaur as a small exploration vehicle to prospect areas, the larger vehicle as something to transport the resources afterwards.
It definitely seems to be the case that the fluff and the models themselves are a bit at odds with each other about what exactly they want them to be. The Dwarf theme is absolutely quite a big thing in both their lore and artwork, but then half the models don't bother with it. Unsuprisingly the Grimnyr is a model that a lot of people seem to really, really like the most because it's the most Space Dwarf whereas the usual gold decorative metalwork on something like the Autoch Bolter being decals just emphasizes how little thought they gave it to having it as part of the range overall really.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/02 13:14:09
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/09/02 13:21:15
Subject: Re:Squats return! - Page 11
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Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant
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I hate to say "wait and see," but LoV doesn't have a LoW choice yet. That could very well be where the Land Train might end up.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/09/02 13:33:09
Subject: Squats return! - Page 11
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Using Object Source Lighting
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Mr_Rose wrote: NAVARRO wrote: Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:It may be down to them having so few units, as a brand new army? This makes some kind of sense to me, but I can’t explain why. Feel free to ignore.
Your probably right, its their way to compensate for the lack of units.
Does the Hekaton carry 20? If so we are back to sardine can transports
Nah, it’s just a double decker. So tempted to paint one up in LT bus livery red now.
Now that would be wicked to see
I hope the dex comes with some nice colour suggestions since I think these models will do well in so many different colours. Red seems a winner though.
BTW they could have included a fun unit based on the Necromunda miners just to bulk the unit numbers.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/02 13:34:36
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/09/02 14:56:19
Subject: Re:Squats return! - Page 11
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Resentful Grot With a Plan
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Wha-Mu-077 wrote:Very VERY shoddy photoshop job of the Fortress with more proportional wheels
Downside is that it now looks kind of like a monster truck
Well that's just insulting! I only had a few mins to make it!
But yeah, I tried make the wheels look like they were more under it but my photoshop skills gave up on me. Wants to look more like this:
The main issue with how GW have made it is it looks like it belongs on a road rather than a battlefield.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/02 14:57:28
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/09/02 14:58:14
Subject: Squats return! - Page 11
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Regular Dakkanaut
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nekooni wrote: H.B.M.C. wrote:I have no issue with the specialist restrictions. My ire is reserved specifically for nonsensical weapon restrictions/limitations/removals.
[EDIT]: And let me just say it before some bright spark jumps in here and starts going "But you're ok with a 4 Heavy Weapon limitation in Devastator Squads and this is no different!!!" or some other such false equivalency - it's not the limitations on the amount of weapons that I and many others have problems with, it's the specific weapon limitations on top of the number limitations. If you want to limit a squad to X special/heavy weapons, or even X per Y models, that's cool. But when you add the extra layer of "You can have 4, but you can't take more than one of each!" crap, that's when it loses me. Imagine if Devastator Squads were limited to one or even two of any given heavy weapon type? That would be bull gak.
To be fair this is your basic troop choice, so you should compared it to tacticals and not devastators. Tacticals can bring one special or heavy at 5, or one special and one heavy at 10.
The devastator equivalent can bring "pure" loadout though.
Yeah, but that's his point, a very valid one. You can take 1 special/heavy weapon per 5 guys, which mean you can take the same weapon for a 10 man squad.
This Kin squad isn't a 5-10 unit, but a 10-20 ones, and they can take 2 special weapons per 10 dudes.... but thos weapons have to be different.
That's the problem here, you can't just take 2 of the same weapons, or 4 when maxed. You are forced to pick to different ones which means having to roll 2 different stuff.
It's a stupid restriction not born of any lore or strategical concern, but purely of "huuur we only put one of each weapon in the box"... As if players couldn't just, yaknow, trade bits or build one unit with one loadout and another with a different one. Automatically Appended Next Post: H.B.M.C. wrote:As this book is essentially half a Codex (get ready Votann players to have your Codex invalidated within a year/18 months but swelled with 6+ new models), I fear that these unit sizes are just there to make things appear more numerous than they really are.
100% agree. I aint touching that first codex that drop at the tail end of the edition when you see obvious gap and missing stuff they literally showed us (like thos banner guys), it looks very, VERY clear to me that GW didn't wanted to release a full army at once, or to release datasheet without the minies (memeber when they did that?) so they are just going to push a 10th edition codex one at the start of the edition.
H.B.M.C. wrote: NAVARRO wrote:10-20 is this a swarmy army? Thats not the way I see them at all.
We need to stop thinking of "10" as the starting point for a "swarm" or a "horde". GW has changed the definition of horde in 9th to anything with 6+ models. This is insane. The base-line squad unit for most races in the game is 10-man units and has been since I'm sure before I started playing.
20 is just a large squad. Anything above 20 and all the way up to 30+ is a proper horde, and should be treated as such.
Says long about the slow degradation of the game. Once upon a time it was a real army game where everyone had a 20 model unit with the exception of the elite space marines.... but in recent edition GW just forgot that the GEq was supposed to be the norm, not the MEq, and the only reason for that is simply so they could sell us less plastic for the same price. Why sell people 20 dudes at 60 bucks when you can sell 10 for the same price?
Just bumb their points so the chills will defend us with "akshually the armies are the same price" (which is a lie).
Mentlegen324 wrote:It's such a shame that the Hekaton Land Fortress turned out to be a bigger Sagitaur. It was something they could have done so many interesting things with but they what chose really doesn't feel either suitable with the wheels, or like a "Land Fortress" much at all.
Yup, the design is... "meh" and start to get awful when you think of it in the context of "land fortress".
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/02 15:09:48
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/09/02 15:13:50
Subject: Re:Squats return! - Page 11
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Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan
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Geifer wrote:
I think half of its problems would have been solved if GW had simply not named it that.
Isn't it about the same size as a Land Raider? Those have been described as "mobile fortresses" in the fluff since forever.
I think the main issue was expectation. Squats were mainly known for their Epic army with many large war machines, and a lot of people anticipated some of that stuff being redesigned for 40k. I can understand why GW wouldn't want to launch a brand new army with mostly super-heavy scale units, but I reckon some of them will turn up eventually.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/09/02 15:15:47
Subject: Re:Squats return! - Page 11
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Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests
Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.
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KillerAngel wrote:I hate to say "wait and see," but LoV doesn't have a LoW choice yet. That could very well be where the Land Train might end up.
The Codex has leaked. There's no LoW. There's not much of anything really. It's half a list, ready to be supplanted in 10th Ed by a new Votann Codex that gives them the other half of the miniature line. Maybe then they'll get a LoW.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/09/02 15:43:20
Subject: Squats return! - Page 11
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Basecoated Black
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The Grymnyr is a great looking model and although I won't be collecting a full army I will be grabbing that one as it will be great for Stargrave. Plus the CROW droids will be excellent multi purpose minis.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/09/02 16:56:09
Subject: Re:Squats return! - Page 11
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Sadistic Inquisitorial Excruciator
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Well, with having specialists among their troop squad, I guess a Kill Team release for them isn't far off.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/09/02 16:58:18
Subject: Re:Squats return! - Page 11
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Speaking of the link, I dont think that one as been posted here yet (unless I've missed it)
But yeah... that's a very... "lean" codex.
1 Lord and its named reskin
1 Duelist
1 Caster
1 Repairer (with almost nothing to repair, but hey)
1 Base Troop
1 Elite Troop
1 Mele Troop
1 Ranged Troop
1 Bike Unit
1 Vehicle
1 Bigger Vehicle
I mean, that's "enough" but there's no fat there.
I surprised by the lack of Blackstone Fortress style Men of Iron here, but it seems pretty clear that GW has decided to be a smartass about it and make them be just headswap, glorified drones or caddies for now to stay in line with their weird hard on to "subvert expectation".
Also missing is the obvious "scout" unit. We got them on bike, but we don't have them on foot with the usual sniper shenanigan going on.
It's okay, every one know they'll be in the next wave anyway.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/02 17:04:33
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/09/02 17:07:25
Subject: Squats return! - Page 11
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Witch Hunter in the Shadows
Aachen
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(HN) wrote:nekooni wrote: H.B.M.C. wrote:I have no issue with the specialist restrictions. My ire is reserved specifically for nonsensical weapon restrictions/limitations/removals.
[EDIT]: And let me just say it before some bright spark jumps in here and starts going "But you're ok with a 4 Heavy Weapon limitation in Devastator Squads and this is no different!!!" or some other such false equivalency - it's not the limitations on the amount of weapons that I and many others have problems with, it's the specific weapon limitations on top of the number limitations. If you want to limit a squad to X special/heavy weapons, or even X per Y models, that's cool. But when you add the extra layer of "You can have 4, but you can't take more than one of each!" crap, that's when it loses me. Imagine if Devastator Squads were limited to one or even two of any given heavy weapon type? That would be bull gak.
To be fair this is your basic troop choice, so you should compared it to tacticals and not devastators. Tacticals can bring one special or heavy at 5, or one special and one heavy at 10.
The devastator equivalent can bring "pure" loadout though.
Yeah, but that's his point, a very valid one. You can take 1 special/heavy weapon per 5 guys, which mean you can take the same weapon for a 10 man squad.
This Kin squad isn't a 5-10 unit, but a 10-20 ones, and they can take 2 special weapons per 10 dudes.... but thos weapons have to be different.
That's the problem here, you can't just take 2 of the same weapons, or 4 when maxed. You are forced to pick to different ones which means having to roll 2 different stuff.
It's a stupid restriction not born of any lore or strategical concern, but purely of "huuur we only put one of each weapon in the box"... As if players couldn't just, yaknow, trade bits or build one unit with one loadout and another with a different one.
No, his point is not valid, because he's just as wrong as you are about what a Tactical Squad can do. You cannot pick 2 Heavy or 2 Special Weapons in a Tactical Squad. At 5, you get one or the other. at 10, you get one of each. That's it. Re-read the tactical squad datasheet if you won't believe me. I don't like it much either, but at least i'm comparing apples to apples.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/02 17:10:23
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/09/02 17:16:28
Subject: Re:Squats return! - Page 11
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Regular Dakkanaut
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H.B.M.C. wrote:KillerAngel wrote:I hate to say "wait and see," but LoV doesn't have a LoW choice yet. That could very well be where the Land Train might end up.
The Codex has leaked. There's no LoW. There's not much of anything really. It's half a list, ready to be supplanted in 10th Ed by a new Votann Codex that gives them the other half of the miniature line. Maybe then they'll get a LoW.
They got more than Harlequins. It makes me sad I wish we had as much as Votan
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2022/09/02 17:39:32
Subject: Squats return! - Page 11
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Regular Dakkanaut
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nekooni wrote:
No, his point is not valid, because he's just as wrong as you are about what a Tactical Squad can do. You cannot pick 2 Heavy or 2 Special Weapons in a Tactical Squad. At 5, you get one or the other. at 10, you get one of each. That's it. Re-read the tactical squad datasheet if you won't believe me. I don't like it much either, but at least i'm comparing apples to apples.
Aight, so first let's be clear, what a tactical squad can or cannot do has nothing to do with what this Kin squad can do, and what it can do is forcing you to take two DIFFERENT weapons instead of just letting you take the same weapon twice in the 10 sized squad, or 4 time in the max sized squad.
I legit have no idea why anyone would make such argument but hey, you sure did address that strawman alright.
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