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Karol wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Karol wrote:
LoL so the change is that we went from one book with updated rules to, One book of updated rules and you have to sub to our app, or you won't have updated point costs. GW is full of extra smart people.

The app is free, you register your codex in it and get free points update for life, they already do that.

They're also going to be free on the site in a document. Please read before going anti gw police on it.

The article didn't say it will be free on the site. And when I click the app I don't get an option to download, just an option to pick a 1 month or 12 month subscription. I guess I did a bad one selling my codex code, then. Well more AoS in the future for me then.

it literally says the points updates are free, multiple times. one time in a big fat quote block.
"points updates will be free as of this new season of Warhammer 40,000”

"That’s because points updates will be free as of this new season of Warhammer 40,000! You’ll be able to get them in Warhammer 40,000: The App and right here on the Warhammer Community website."
"free" "on the website".

And the new CP rules only apply to the missions in the new CA. If you play other missions, you get your CP just like before. Same with secondaries, they're tied to the mission pack.

*edit*
I mean, I could be completely wrong considering your local area, from what I've read so far from you it's probably a requirement to sacrifice your firstborn and purchase any and all GW publications to participate in a casual game, and if you want to avoid a beating you'll also have to sub to the 40k app. And all of that is GWs fault.

Karol wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Karol wrote:
LoL so the change is that we went from one book with updated rules to, One book of updated rules and you have to sub to our app, or you won't have updated point costs. GW is full of extra smart people.

The app is free, you register your codex in it and get free points update for life, they already do that.

They're also going to be free on the site in a document. Please read before going anti gw police on it.

The article didn't say it will be free on the site. And when I click the app I don't get an option to download, just an option to pick a 1 month or 12 month subscription. I guess I did a bad one selling my codex code, then. Well more AoS in the future for me then.

Well, again, if you read the article rather than spouting gak:

That’s because points updates will be free as of this new season of Warhammer 40,000! You’ll be able to get them in Warhammer 40,000: The App and right here on the Warhammer Community website.

You do realise the codes in the books for sigmar are the same right? Or did you sell those too?

Karol wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Karol wrote:
LoL so the change is that we went from one book with updated rules to, One book of updated rules and you have to sub to our app, or you won't have updated point costs. GW is full of extra smart people.

The app is free, you register your codex in it and get free points update for life, they already do that.

They're also going to be free on the site in a document. Please read before going anti gw police on it.

The article didn't say it will be free on the site. And when I click the app I don't get an option to download, just an option to pick a 1 month or 12 month subscription. I guess I did a bad one selling my codex code, then. Well more AoS in the future for me then.

You’ll be able to get them in Warhammer 40,000: The App and right here on the Warhammer Community website

Yes they said. Read above phrase(straight from gw) again. If still don't see read it again. If still no luck go to nearest school and ask help from english teacher.

Smaller CP pools are good in general, even if it exacerbates the silliness of Martial Legacy (sigh...). I'll take that, even if it's still just baby steps towards a good system that would encourage steady use of tricks chosen before the game instead of stacked alpha striking.

 Sherrypie wrote:
Smaller CP pools are good in general, even if it exacerbates the silliness of Martial Legacy (sigh...). I'll take that, even if it's still just baby steps towards a good system that would encourage steady use of tricks chosen before the game instead of stacked alpha striking.

Yeah, ML needs to go. It's mostly a tax on units that don't need extra taxes in the first place. Maybe turn it into a "this datasheet must be unique" kinda thing, or "no more than X units/ models of this type per X points/PL"

Tyel wrote:
In danger of white knighting, but it all sounds quite good to me.

I'm concerned more limited CP will mean you always use the same stratagems - but that's basically where we are now. (You'll use A+B rather than A+B+C+D) It should hopefully reduce turn 1/2 blowouts by a bit - although it depends where you are on turn 2 relatively speaking and some stratagems are more impactful than others.

Equally, balancing secondaries = good. GW's historic record on balance... not so great. So we'll see. It should hopefully be more reasonable if it has all been conceived of together.

Free points is obviously excellent. Hope there will be a few sensible adjustments too.

White knighting is making excuses for flaws like when someone says "balance is gak" and then saying "most people have more than one army so who cares if there are factions which are basically unplayable?" Even if it is true that most people have multiple armies GW should still make every army balanced and be criticized when they fail to do so. Praising GW for good practices and design decisions is not white knighting. At least we can be happy when GW fail at balancing the game that they aren't engineers building bridges, it's just a game and I can just take my business elsewhere, novels are good this time of year.

To balance the game you need rules set in stone, then create missions and any faction secondaries and finally playtest to see where pts should be. When GW redoes secondaries they will not know the impact it will have on pts-effectiveness when combined with the patch and what changes need to be made based on the combination of those effects.

I just really hope GW gets rid of Armour of Gak and Hammer of Gak. I don't care if we go back to Guard or SM being undercosted and overpowered, it just really irks me and makes me not want to play the game that Space Marines can ignore the AP on my gauss flayers.

 G00fySmiley wrote:
yay free points, though with how GW has been doing things I expect an across the board increase in ork points because they still sometimes make it to a top 16 or in rare cases top 8 tables of a major tournament and need more nerfs.

No, clearly it is the foul Ogryn that need nerfs.

I'm optimistic based on this.

Free points on the website - really good, not because of the free-ness, but because by taking them out of printed books, they no longer need to be 3~6 months out of date when they arrive.

CP changes - bit of a wash if they change it to 6 CP to start but 10 CP gained during the game. Loses 1 CP overall and mainly helps players who can't resist spending their last CP rather than waiting so they can use a 2 CP strat in their next turn.

Secondary changes - good news, we've been waiting for this for a long time, some really weak secondaries need improvements.

Overall, I'm not too bothered to spend the same £s on this new CA as I spent on the last CA+MFM, as the MFM was a waste of ink and I'm expecting this to be a bit thicker than the last pamphlet sized Nachmund CA.

I do agree with some other commenters here and on reddit, we need to keep asking for the latest base rules (with errata) to be included in each new CA. So that briefly (until they need to FAQ something) you can have an up to date set of rules in a single book.

Karol wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Karol wrote:
LoL so the change is that we went from one book with updated rules to, One book of updated rules and you have to sub to our app, or you won't have updated point costs. GW is full of extra smart people.

The app is free, you register your codex in it and get free points update for life, they already do that.

They're also going to be free on the site in a document. Please read before going anti gw police on it.

The article didn't say it will be free on the site. And when I click the app I don't get an option to download, just an option to pick a 1 month or 12 month subscription. I guess I did a bad one selling my codex code, then. Well more AoS in the future for me then.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ccs 804923 11358040 wrote:

Other than the free pts adjustments for those times I play casual matched, it won't change my armies at all because like Naschmund I won't play it. They're products aimed at tourney dwellers - of wich I'm not.
I won't even buy/pirate/read it as it's a waste of my time. Unless I decide to pull out the Guard or demons.....
Now if an opponent wants to use their altered (or shiny new for IG/Demons/?) secondaries? That's cool, I don't mind. Afterall it's a casual game.

Wouldn't it be kind of a problem, if you stilled used out dated and illegal rules for your secondaries though, or the CP limits etc

Nope, no problems. They won't be outdated. Or illegal. Because this stuff is specific to one particular season of Tournament Matched Play. Wich is but one way to play this game. A way in wich I decline to play.
So any Matched Play game I'm in will default to the standard CP, etc. And no, Matched Play =/= Tournament Matched Play.

Karol wrote:
Yeah, when my special ammo, shields from having nemezis staffs etc stop being "on stratagem activiation" I can talk about that.

In case of my dudes, stratagems are not "taking everything" it is using stuff other armies have as a basic rule build in to their units or straight up gear.

Have to agree with Karol. When certain factions core gameplay mechanics and abilities are paywalled behind CP via Strategem, this sort of change can have a pretty severe impact on how your faction plays, as well as the general flavor of the army. This will hurt some of the more recent factions in particular (like Tyranids, Aeldari, and the upcoming CSM book) where wargear is tied to keywords which are used to trigger specific strategems - this will have a huge impact on the value of that wargear by constricting your ability to actually make use of it.

ccs wrote:

Nope, no problems. They won't be outdated. Or illegal. Because this stuff is specific to one particular season of Tournament Matched Play. Wich is but one way to play this game. A way in wich I decline to play.
So any Matched Play game I'm in will default to the standard CP, etc. And no, Matched Play =/= Tournament Matched Play.

Technically, I believe the CP rules etc are simply relevant for that Mission Pack. So when you play a mission from the new CA mission pack as a casual matched play game, you would use the new objectives etc, but if you play e.g. a Nachmund mission, you would use the rules and objectives found in Nachmund.

Or you just do whatever you agree with the other player on, of course - which is probably how this is going to work for most casual games.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

chaos0xomega wrote:

Karol wrote:
Yeah, when my special ammo, shields from having nemezis staffs etc stop being "on stratagem activiation" I can talk about that.

In case of my dudes, stratagems are not "taking everything" it is using stuff other armies have as a basic rule build in to their units or straight up gear.

Have to agree with Karol. When certain factions core gameplay mechanics and abilities are paywalled behind CP via Strategem, this sort of change can have a pretty severe impact on how your faction plays, as well as the general flavor of the army. This will hurt some of the more recent factions in particular (like Tyranids, Aeldari, and the upcoming CSM book) where wargear is tied to keywords which are used to trigger specific strategems - this will have a huge impact on the value of that wargear by constricting your ability to actually make use of it.

You're probably still getting the same amount of CP over 5 rounds. It's taking away from the T1/T2 CP dump strats, and that's always a good think as it reduced the alpha strike. But yes, factions that needed these T1 CP dumps to be competitive will have to be compensated.

BTW this isn't anything new with the recent factions. the first codex of 9th had this kind of strats already, e.g. smoke launchers.

nekooni wrote:

ccs wrote:

Nope, no problems. They won't be outdated. Or illegal. Because this stuff is specific to one particular season of Tournament Matched Play. Wich is but one way to play this game. A way in wich I decline to play.
So any Matched Play game I'm in will default to the standard CP, etc. And no, Matched Play =/= Tournament Matched Play.

Technically, I believe the CP rules etc are simply relevant for that Mission Pack. So when you play a mission from the new CA mission pack as a casual matched play game, you would use the new objectives etc, but if you play e.g. a Nachmund mission, you would use the rules and objectives found in Nachmund.

Well, I doubt you have any greater insight than I do on it & I inferred from both the article & video that the objectives are tied to the mission pack. One of us will turn out to be wrong in a couple of months.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
The next Chapter Approved has free points!

But that's not the important part.

Secondaries are all getting consolidated and redone, which means armies like DE with easy secondaries will hopefully have a harder time scoring them, which can take their win rates down. And if they make useful secondaries out of some of the stinkers other armies could see improvements.

We also get half CP to start, but extra CP per turn ( I imagine 2 instead of 1 ). This makes it a lot harder to stack on all the relics, traits, and pre-game buffs and then also launch a full strength battery of strats.

I know that this functionally limits me to only so many relics and no extra detachments. If I have a squad of 10 terminators I NEED 3CP to start the game - especially if I don't go first. How does your army change with this consideration?

I'm quite looking forward to this next season.

RIP leap of faith.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Karol wrote:
Less CP is not fun

hard disagree, just like playing at a lower pts level, it means you can't just take everything you want and still have all your powerful stratagem combos

What powerful stratagem combos? My 2CP to add +1 to charge for 1 unit of repentia?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gert wrote:

Karol wrote:
Wouldn't it be kind of a problem, if you stilled used out dated and illegal rules for your secondaries though, or the CP limits etc

Anything not in the core rulebook is optional, so no.

Technically, the core book is optional too. Open play is very broad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chaos0xomega wrote:

Karol wrote:
Yeah, when my special ammo, shields from having nemezis staffs etc stop being "on stratagem activiation" I can talk about that.

In case of my dudes, stratagems are not "taking everything" it is using stuff other armies have as a basic rule build in to their units or straight up gear.

Have to agree with Karol. When certain factions core gameplay mechanics and abilities are paywalled behind CP via Strategem, this sort of change can have a pretty severe impact on how your faction plays, as well as the general flavor of the army. This will hurt some of the more recent factions in particular (like Tyranids, Aeldari, and the upcoming CSM book) where wargear is tied to keywords which are used to trigger specific strategems - this will have a huge impact on the value of that wargear by constricting your ability to actually make use of it.

The biggest problem is if they put the new increased CP during player turns, rather than battle rounds. If you get something like 2CP at the start of your turn, that essentially means the player going first starts with 8CP and the player going second starts with 6.

Free points, at long last.

Hoping for a big shake-up honestly. The Balance Dataslate left a lot to be desired, and the benefit that Thousand Sons get out of it is far more than what Sisters of Battle get out of it.

ERJAK wrote:
Technically, the core book is optional too. Open play is very broad.

Can you try to do even a little thinking before posting? One day?

Oh, nevermind, then.

Karol wrote:
Maybe the free points are just for armies that do really bad. Like your play demons or IG you get X extra points for free.

I want to clear this up for Karol. The "free points" aren't referring to extra points. It's referring to the point values for units/models/wargear being available for free.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Karol wrote:
Yeah, when my special ammo, shields from having nemezis staffs etc stop being "on stratagem activiation" I can talk about that.

In case of my dudes, stratagems are not "taking everything" it is using stuff other armies have as a basic rule build in to their units or straight up gear.

Have to agree with Karol. When certain factions core gameplay mechanics and abilities are paywalled behind CP via Strategem, this sort of change can have a pretty severe impact on how your faction plays, as well as the general flavor of the army. This will hurt some of the more recent factions in particular (like Tyranids, Aeldari, and the upcoming CSM book) where wargear is tied to keywords which are used to trigger specific strategems - this will have a huge impact on the value of that wargear by constricting your ability to actually make use of it.

I don't think it turns it on it's head. You just can't "have it all" all at once. You can sacrifice traits and relics if you really need to be pumping stuff out of the gate.

For me it seems as though I want to make sure I have 4CP at game start, so, if I go second and I spend 3CP to do -1D then on my turn I'll be back to 3CP. But then do I push that CP to take an opportunity to hit back or save it for the next barrage.

To me that seems like difficult choices and difficult choices are good for the game.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
The next Chapter Approved has free points!

But that's not the important part.

Secondaries are all getting consolidated and redone, which means armies like DE with easy secondaries will hopefully have a harder time scoring them, which can take their win rates down. And if they make useful secondaries out of some of the stinkers other armies could see improvements.

We also get half CP to start, but extra CP per turn ( I imagine 2 instead of 1 ). This makes it a lot harder to stack on all the relics, traits, and pre-game buffs and then also launch a full strength battery of strats.

I know that this functionally limits me to only so many relics and no extra detachments. If I have a squad of 10 terminators I NEED 3CP to start the game - especially if I don't go first. How does your army change with this consideration?

I'm quite looking forward to this next season.

You can remove herd and it wouldn't effect DE bc we have Engage of Fronts. Heck I don't even take Herd sometimes bc Engage is better vs certain armies.

All secondaries are too easy not just "Armies like DE" Look at CWE, Quins, marines, etc... basically just skewed armies like Knights have bad picks.

over all IMO every secondaries needs to be harder to get.. But if you make them too hard then it becomes skewed as well, O

Catulle wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Technically, the core book is optional too. Open play is very broad.

Can you try to do even a little thinking before posting? One day?

Oh, nevermind, then.

Dude, it's not my fault you don't understand the implications of the 'most important rule' being 'if your opponent agrees'.

If your opponent agrees, you can throw out any and all rules you want. Even the rule about your opponent agreeing. Thus is the paradox of the most important rule.

It's also not my fault you have the imagination of an old sponge.

ERJAK wrote:

Catulle wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Technically, the core book is optional too. Open play is very broad.

Can you try to do even a little thinking before posting? One day?

Oh, nevermind, then.

Dude, it's not my fault you don't understand the implications of the 'most important rule' being 'if your opponent agrees'.

If your opponent agrees, you can throw out any and all rules you want. Even the rule about your opponent agreeing. Thus is the paradox of the most important rule.

It's also not my fault you have the imagination of an old sponge.

I guess that just fell, fully formed, from the head of Zeus, too.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
You can remove herd and it wouldn't effect DE bc we have Engage of Fronts. Heck I don't even take Herd sometimes bc Engage is better vs certain armies.

All secondaries are too easy not just "Armies like DE" Look at CWE, Quins, marines, etc... basically just skewed armies like Knights have bad picks.

over all IMO every secondaries needs to be harder to get.. But if you make them too hard then it becomes skewed as well, O

There shouldn't be much that reliably scores 15. If it does - it should be hard to achieve. The outcome will certainly be something to watch, because there's quite a few books that still have to lean on standard secondaries and have few options against stuff like Custodes or Harlies.

Sherrypie wrote:Smaller CP pools are good in general, even if it exacerbates the silliness of Martial Legacy (sigh...). I'll take that, even if it's still just baby steps towards a good system that would encourage steady use of tricks chosen before the game instead of stacked alpha striking.

Well, we have to be penalized for liking the "wrong models" somehow, don't we?

nekooni wrote:Yeah, ML needs to go. It's mostly a tax on units that don't need extra taxes in the first place. Maybe turn it into a "this datasheet must be unique" kinda thing, or "no more than X units/ models of this type per X points/PL"

That would certainly be a better way to show that they were "rare". The current rules just show that they "cost CP".

Karol wrote:
Yeah, when my special ammo, shields from having nemezis staffs etc stop being "on stratagem activiation" I can talk about that.

those should never have been gated behind strats



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Mostly agree. Kinda sucks when most of your vehicles cost CP.

you still use that dumbass rule?

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Mostly agree. Kinda sucks when most of your vehicles cost CP.

you still use that dumbass rule?

Well, yes, because everyone else does (or expects others to). Because it's "balanced". Otherwise "Gw wouldn't have put it in there". You can't just force your own opinions on others. It's a two player game, after all.

 Gert wrote:
Anything not in the core rulebook is optional, so no.

And yet people keep reminding you that that tends to not be how people play. People tend to play with whatever the latest update is.

GW got a big hole to dig itself out of. I don't think this'll do it.

 Insectum7 wrote:
GW got a big hole to dig itself out of. I don't think this'll do it.

wAiT aNd SeE!!!



I mean, at least the points are free. At least people can just play with their updated armies without having to wait for an expensive book to arrive.

 Insectum7 wrote:
GW got a big hole to dig itself out of. I don't think this'll do it.

I can't see how restricting the flow of CP and level setting secondaries would make things worse. And as mentioned by others - not having to print points makes them a lot more flexible.

As for the size of the hole - it isn't quite that large right now. Knights and CSM don't seem poised to upset things, either ( yet ).

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And yet people keep reminding you that that tends to not be how people play. People tend to play with whatever the latest update is.

And people keep thinking the only way to play is with the latest GT mission pack because people keep perpetuating the narrative. So how do you suppose we break that narrative hm?

EightFoldPath wrote:
CP changes - bit of a wash if they change it to 6 CP to start but 10 CP gained during the game. Loses 1 CP overall and mainly helps players who can't resist spending their last CP rather than waiting so they can use a 2 CP strat in their next turn.

Someone else said this but it's worth repeating, this makes strats to buy extra warlord traits and relics a lot less appealing. It also reigns in some of the pre-game movement and reserve deploy shenanigans. I know I'm going to be thinking a lot harder about buying those upgrades.

I'm a Crusader, but I might try out the new CP rules just to shake up the game if I ever get a Crusade up to 50PL.

As a GT rule, it will have been designed to only work Incursion and Strike Force games... It could theoretically scale up to Onslaught, but it doesn't really scale down to Combat Patrol, where your starting CP is 3.