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And what happens to those Bloodletters’ attacks on a 6+ To Wound? You missed that bit.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
And what happens to those Bloodletters’ attacks on a 6+ To Wound? You missed that bit.

Whatever happens to them normally. The fast rolling rule does not care about what happens when you roll to wound.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The fast rolling rule does not care about what happens when you roll to wound.

False. The fast rolling rule cares about inflicting damage. It is impossible to know how much damage they will inflict, because that is determined with wound rolls. The damage characteristic is irrelevant.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
And what happens to those Bloodletters’ attacks on a 6+ To Wound? You missed that bit.

It is irrelevant. If all the attacks to be Fast Rolled have the same Ability then they can be Fast Rolled.

Good grief people make a mountain out of the Fast Rolling molehill, don’t they?

How is “this stat may end up different” irrelevant? It really isn’t. Come on peeps. Fast roll variable things and weird stuff happens, so enjoy spending your time in the weeds, arguing!

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The fast rolling rule does not care about what happens when you roll to wound.

False. The fast rolling rule cares about inflicting damage.

It cares that the attacks "must inflict the same Damage".

The fast rolling rules do not say "Inflict damage" it says the attacks "must inflict the same Damage"

This is determined before you roll to hit, so what I said is true.

 p5freak wrote:
It is impossible to know how much damage they will inflict, because that is determined with wound rolls.

It is not impossible to know how much damage they will inflict, they inflict 1 damage. This is proven by looking at the Bloodletter Dataslate.

The rule for fast rolling states the attacks "must inflict the same Damage".

P221 (or 18 in the PDF rules) under "5. INFLICT DAMAGE" says "The damage inflicted is equal to the Damage (D) characteristic of the weapon making the attack."

What is the "Damage (D) characteristic of the weapon making the attack." when we are talking about the Bloodletter Dataslate?

 p5freak wrote:
The damage characteristic is irrelevant.

That is 100% not what P221, or 18 in the PDF rules says. (And I have shown quotes that makes your statement false).

Me reading this thread: yeah, I'm just gonna keep fast rolling my Bloodletters and letting my opponent allocate them as they wish.

Keep it stupid, simple.

 DeathReaper wrote:

It is not impossible to know how much damage they will inflict, they inflict 1 damage. This is proven by looking at the Bloodletter Dataslate.

So even if you roll a 6 to wound, they only inflict one damage because you know that’s how much damage they will inflict.

A bold take.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cheex wrote:
Me reading this thread: yeah, I'm just gonna keep fast rolling my Bloodletters and letting my opponent allocate them as they wish.

Keep it stupid, simple.

It's a fair concession. I think the key point is that people fast rolling need to be aware that the defender can dramatically reduce the incoming damage by allocating wounds in a way that negates the bonus damage. Ie, Intercessors taking 1-damage saves then switching to 2-damage saves once they failed one, and reverting back to the 1-damage after the model is slain.

JakeSiren wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

It is not impossible to know how much damage they will inflict, they inflict 1 damage. This is proven by looking at the Bloodletter Dataslate.

So even if you roll a 6 to wound, they only inflict one damage because you know that’s how much damage they will inflict.

A bold take.

You seemed to miss the point of my post. I never said anything about rolling to wound. I was talking about a point in time.

We know how much damage they will inflict, at the time we determine if they are allowed to fast roll or not...

Therefore you can fast roll, because at that point they all "inflict the same Damage", which is what the fast rolling rule looks for.

The fast rolling rule is concerned with the status of the listed items at the point in time where you are going to make your attacks. And at that time, the bloodletters do 1 damage.

The damage may change in the future, but they does not matter to the fast rolling rules.

I think we can now conclusively state that 10 Edition 40K need to be written with batch rolling as part of the Core Rules rather than as a hastily and badly thought out add-on.

 DeathReaper wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

It is not impossible to know how much damage they will inflict, they inflict 1 damage. This is proven by looking at the Bloodletter Dataslate.

So even if you roll a 6 to wound, they only inflict one damage because you know that’s how much damage they will inflict.

A bold take.

You seemed to miss the point of my post. I never said anything about rolling to wound. I was talking about a point in time.

We know how much damage they will inflict, at the time we determine if they are allowed to fast roll or not...

Therefore you can fast roll, because at that point they all "inflict the same Damage", which is what the fast rolling rule looks for.

The fast rolling rule is concerned with the status of the listed items at the point in time where you are going to make your attacks. And at that time, the bloodletters do 1 damage.

The damage may change in the future, but they does not matter to the fast rolling rules.

No, you missed the point.

Before rolling we don't know that they will inflict the same damage.

 DeathReaper wrote:

P221 (or 18 in the PDF rules) under "5. INFLICT DAMAGE" says "The damage inflicted is equal to the Damage (D) characteristic of the weapon making the attack."

Their datasheet overrules this, because their damage characteristic becomes 2, when you roll a 6 to wound.

JakeSiren wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

It is not impossible to know how much damage they will inflict, they inflict 1 damage. This is proven by looking at the Bloodletter Dataslate.

So even if you roll a 6 to wound, they only inflict one damage because you know that’s how much damage they will inflict.

A bold take.

You seemed to miss the point of my post. I never said anything about rolling to wound. I was talking about a point in time.

We know how much damage they will inflict, at the time we determine if they are allowed to fast roll or not...

Therefore you can fast roll, because at that point they all "inflict the same Damage", which is what the fast rolling rule looks for.

The fast rolling rule is concerned with the status of the listed items at the point in time where you are going to make your attacks. And at that time, the bloodletters do 1 damage.

The damage may change in the future, but they does not matter to the fast rolling rules.

No, you missed the point.

Before rolling we don't know that they will inflict the same damage.

Before rolling we don’t know if they will inflict any damage at all. So I don’t really see the relevance of your point.

And what about those weapons with a variable D stat, like D6. We don’t know they will inflict the same damage. Are they also ineligible for Fast Rolling?

 alextroy wrote:
Before rolling we don’t know if they will inflict any damage at all. So I don’t really see the relevance of your point.

And what about those weapons with a variable D stat, like D6. We don’t know they will inflict the same damage. Are they also ineligible for Fast Rolling?

Thats a good point. Its possible that any weapon will not inflict any damage, therefore no weapon is eligible for fast rolling

What you said does not matter, because the rules clearly do not care about the wound rolls...

The fast rolling rules care only about certain things before you roll to hit... So, what the damage may possibly end up being, has literally no bearing on the fast rolling rules.

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

P221 (or 18 in the PDF rules) under "5. INFLICT DAMAGE" says "The damage inflicted is equal to the Damage (D) characteristic of the weapon making the attack."

Their datasheet overrules this, because their damage characteristic becomes 2, when you roll a 6 to wound.

Which is of course irrelevant to the Fast rolling rules.

 alextroy wrote:
And what about those weapons with a variable D stat, like D6. We don’t know they will inflict the same damage. Are they also ineligible for Fast Rolling?

Correct, you cannot fast-roll them, as described in the book.

Most people get around the sequencing issue by fast-rolling up to the step when the stats are variable and fast roll from there - in this case, you roll damage one by one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The fast rolling rules care only about certain things before you roll to hit... So, what the damage may possibly end up being, has literally no bearing on the fast rolling rules.

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

P221 (or 18 in the PDF rules) under "5. INFLICT DAMAGE" says "The damage inflicted is equal to the Damage (D) characteristic of the weapon making the attack."

Their datasheet overrules this, because their damage characteristic becomes 2, when you roll a 6 to wound.

Which is of course irrelevant to the Fast rolling rules.

DeathReaper, does the model targeted by the attack lose one or two wounds?

What is on the dataslate at the time you determine if you fast roll? 1 or 2?

It may take 2 if certain conditions are met, but those do not matter to the Fast rolling rules.

This has become one of the most ridiculous threads in ages. We’re now at the “guy saying a weapon that could do D2 is a D1 weapon”. Schroedinger’s Bloodletter screams. Everyone else groans.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
This has become one of the most ridiculous threads in ages. We’re now at the “guy saying a weapon that could do D2 is a D1 weapon”. Schroedinger’s Bloodletter screams. Everyone else groans.

Thats not what I am saying at all, did you even read the thread?

 DeathReaper wrote:
What is on the dataslate at the time you determine if you fast roll? 1 or 2?

Which is completely irrelevant, because the fast roll rules only care about inflict damage. All attacks must inflict the same damage, if not, you cannot fast roll. And because you cannot know what the wound rolls will be, if they will inflict 1 or 2 damage, no fast rolls allowed.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
This has become one of the most ridiculous threads in ages. We’re now at the “guy saying a weapon that could do D2 is a D1 weapon”. Schroedinger’s Bloodletter screams. Everyone else groans.

Thats not what I am saying at all, did you even read the thread?

Did you? Come on man! You’re the one tilting at a windmill here. If the damage stat could vary for each attack, does each attack have the same damage? You keep dodging this.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Spoiler:

JakeSiren wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

It is not impossible to know how much damage they will inflict, they inflict 1 damage. This is proven by looking at the Bloodletter Dataslate.

So even if you roll a 6 to wound, they only inflict one damage because you know that’s how much damage they will inflict.

A bold take.

You seemed to miss the point of my post. I never said anything about rolling to wound. I was talking about a point in time.

We know how much damage they will inflict, at the time we determine if they are allowed to fast roll or not...

Therefore you can fast roll, because at that point they all "inflict the same Damage", which is what the fast rolling rule looks for.

The fast rolling rule is concerned with the status of the listed items at the point in time where you are going to make your attacks. And at that time, the bloodletters do 1 damage.

The damage may change in the future, but they does not matter to the fast rolling rules.

No, you missed the point.

Before rolling we don't know that they will inflict the same damage.

What you said does not matter, because the rules clearly do not care about the wound rolls...

The fast rolling rules care only about certain things before you roll to hit... So, what the damage may possibly end up being, has literally no bearing on the fast rolling rules.

It 100% matters. You said you "know how much damage they will inflict", but admitting that the damage may possibly change is an admission that you don't!

If you don't know how much damage an attack will inflict, then you can't fulfill the fast roll requirement that all of the attacks must inflict the same damage.

The short is, if you fast rolling gives an advantage or disadvantage to one player over the other, where slow rolling doesn't, then you shouldn't fast roll.

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
What is on the dataslate at the time you determine if you fast roll? 1 or 2?

Which is completely irrelevant

Well that is false.

How is the characteristic irrelevant, when the rule explicitly calls out the characteristic?

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
This has become one of the most ridiculous threads in ages. We’re now at the “guy saying a weapon that could do D2 is a D1 weapon”. Schroedinger’s Bloodletter screams. Everyone else groans.

Thats not what I am saying at all, did you even read the thread?

Did you? Come on man! You’re the one tilting at a windmill here. If the damage stat could vary for each attack, does each attack have the same damage? You keep dodging this.

Of course I read it, clearly you did not...

It DOES NOT MATTER If the damage stat could vary for each attack. That is not at all what the fast rolling rules care about. you do realize this right?

JakeSiren wrote:
It 100% matters. You said you "know how much damage they will inflict", but admitting that the damage may possibly change is an admission that you don't!

We know how much damage they will inflict, when the rules for fast rolling comes into play. And that is what matters...

If you don't know how much damage an attack will inflict, then you can't fulfill the fast roll requirement that all of the attacks must inflict the same damage.

The short is, if you fast rolling gives an advantage or disadvantage to one player over the other, where slow rolling doesn't, then you shouldn't fast roll.

Except, at the point we go to fast roll we 100% know what damage they will inflict, as they have a D characteristic that tells us that.

You simply don’t understand the core of the fast rolling rule, or the text of it. No point debating as you aren’t following the letter or spirit of the rule, seem to just being dogmatically contrarian at this point.

I had written up something in response to DeathReaper, but I agree with Johnny about DeathReaper being contrarian.

The adherence to "We know how much damage they will inflict" when it's blatantly false is just embarrassing.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
What is on the dataslate at the time you determine if you fast roll? 1 or 2?

Which is completely irrelevant

Well that is false.

How is the characteristic irrelevant, when the rule explicitly calls out the characteristic?

Your fast roll rule must be different from mine. I dont see anything about the damage characteristic there.

FAST DICE ROLLING

In order to make several attacks at once, all of the attacks must have the same ballistic skill (if its a shooting attack), or the same weapon skill (if its a close combat attack). They must also have the same strength and armour penetration, they must inflict the same damage, they must be affected by the same abilities, and they must be directed at the same unit.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
DeathReaper, does the model targeted by the attack lose one or two wounds?

What is on the dataslate at the time you determine if you fast roll? 1 or 2?

It may take 2 if certain conditions are met, but those do not matter to the Fast rolling rules.

Answer the question. Avoiding it proves that you are arguing in bad faith.

DR - : "Attacks with a wound roll of 6+ for this weapon have a Damage characteristic of 2 instead of 1"

So we know the characteristic is either d1 OR d2, and as such you CANNOT fulfil the requirement that they MUST inflict the SAME damage

You are wrong on this.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
You simply don’t understand the core of the fast rolling rule, or the text of it. No point debating as you aren’t following the letter or spirit of the rule, seem to just being dogmatically contrarian at this point.

I am following the rule to the letter.

What part do you think I am not understanding?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
DR - : "Attacks with a wound roll of 6+ for this weapon have a Damage characteristic of 2 instead of 1"

So we know the characteristic is either d1 OR d2, and as such you CANNOT fulfil the requirement that they MUST inflict the SAME damage

You are wrong on this.

No, I am not wrong, because you literally can not take that into consideration, as the Fast rolling rule has a timing issue that you are overlooking.

At the point when you determine if you can or can not fast roll, all of the attacks have the same damage characteristic. I have proven this is my previous posts.

 Jidmah wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
DeathReaper, does the model targeted by the attack lose one or two wounds?

What is on the dataslate at the time you determine if you fast roll? 1 or 2?

It may take 2 if certain conditions are met, but those do not matter to the Fast rolling rules.

Answer the question. Avoiding it proves that you are arguing in bad faith.

You are also missing the timing issue. Your question is simply not relevant to the Fast rolling rule.

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
What is on the dataslate at the time you determine if you fast roll? 1 or 2?

Which is completely irrelevant

Well that is false.

How is the characteristic irrelevant, when the rule explicitly calls out the characteristic?

Your fast roll rule must be different from mine. I dont see anything about the damage characteristic there.

FAST DICE ROLLING

In order to make several attacks at once, all of the attacks must have the same ballistic skill (if its a shooting attack), or the same weapon skill (if its a close combat attack). They must also have the same strength and armour penetration, they must inflict the same damage, they must be affected by the same abilities, and they must be directed at the same unit.

I quoted it before, but ill do so again.

The part that says "they must inflict the same damage" Here is what that means:

P221 (or 18 in the PDF rules) under "5. INFLICT DAMAGE" says "The damage inflicted is equal to the Damage (D) characteristic of the weapon making the attack."

So we know the Damage (D) characteristic of the weapon making the attack is = to The damage inflicted. and in the case of bloodletters, the Damage (D) characteristic of the weapon making the attack is 1.

So when the fast roll rule says "they must inflict the same damage" that means nothing if you do not look at all the rules involved. Do not ignore the rules about inflicting damage

P.S. My fast roll rule is not different from yours, why would it be?

"Must inflict the same damage"
Yet they don't. We know for a fact that they MAY NOT inflict the same damage.this breaks the requirement.

I'm not ignoring a timing issue. You are creating a timing restriction out of whole cloth, as well as a desire to only look at the dataslate and not the rule which says the characteristic can change.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
And, again, you ignored the rule I quoted showing that the D char of the attack is one OR two. It isn't alwsys one

You're wrong.