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The Taranis GT-list above has an error: you cannot take Warlord Trait: Revered Knight on an Armiger-class model.

I thought something looked off.

Guess they could just take it on the Errant, swapping out Ion Bulwark. It'd be a harder target to take down, but much more prominent and easier to connect with than the backfield Armiger.

I would probably make the Errant my Warlord and give the Revered Knight to him, while dropping Blessed by the Sacristans. Errant is pretty hard to kill and fight first is helpful for him.

Hrm. I can see going 'maximum Armigers' for the boosts... but then the list can only boost four Armigers at a time, max. I suppose it's more about using the other Armiger mobility advantages, and leveraging the BS boost from the Crusader for the Helverin back-liners and the Advance & Charge from the Errant for specific situations (which I note it can deploy anywhere on the board via Vox). Does leave three Warglaives sort of hanging around being un-boosted, though- perhaps the assumption is that the enemy is going to be killing them off quickly enough for it not to matter?

Indeed, the two Knights can boost four Warglaives. Another Warglaive could try to hold the centre and perform the action ''Renew the Oaths''. The two Armigers could benefit from ''The Bastard's Helm''.

Even without the Bondsman abilities the Armigers are still as good as they were before the codex came out. They can benefit from Obscuring, so you can use terrain to limit what can see and shoot them which is an advantage over the Titanic units. They can go into Strategic Reserves really easily and have a number of stratagems that really benefit them. I really have found them amazing, the only complaint is how much better the Chaos War Dog datasheets are. I'd really like the option for that chaincannon!

Is there a rule that allows me to take an Imperial Knight in an Imperium army and not lose my benefits? If so will you tell me the page it's on?

 CKO wrote:
Is there a rule that allows me to take an Imperial Knight in an Imperium army and not lose my benefits? If so will you tell me the page it's on?

"Wandering Hero", page 64. One unit in a Super-Heavy Aux detachment gets Agent of the Imperium.

RedX wrote:

 CKO wrote:
Is there a rule that allows me to take an Imperial Knight in an Imperium army and not lose my benefits? If so will you tell me the page it's on?

"Wandering Hero", page 64. One unit in a Super-Heavy Aux detachment gets Agent of the Imperium.

Do note that only the army you soup your knight into will not lose benefits, the knight itself doesn’t get much. No warlord traits, bondsman abilities, vows, relics, or imperial/mechanicus traits. You also only get Freeblabe stuff vs being in a household. Also, unlike Chaos knights, we don’t get favors just exalted court upgrades which aren’t very good with no warglaives.

So IMO GW oversold how valuable this was going to be. By losing so many abilities on the big guy and costing CP, 99% of imperial armies are going to be better off running more of their own units over a knight.

So if you just enjoy the theme of running a knight in your army go for it, but know it’s not competitive.

Salt donkey wrote:

Do note that only the army you soup your knight into will not lose benefits, the knight itself doesn’t get much. No warlord traits, bondsman abilities, vows, relics, or imperial/mechanicus traits. You also only get Freeblabe stuff vs being in a household. Also, unlike Chaos knights, we don’t get favors just exalted court upgrades which aren’t very good with no warglaives.

So IMO GW oversold how valuable this was going to be. By losing so many abilities on the big guy and costing CP, 99% of imperial armies are going to be better off running more of their own units over a knight.

Paradoxically, Freeblades are quite good on Dominus Knights. They don't get Bondsman abilities anyway so you lose less by taking them this way. Some armies like Custodes could potentially benefit from the long ranged anti-tank of a Castellan for example.

Alternatively, Gallants are pretty cheap (by Knight standards) and make one heck of a distraction-Carnifex to throw at the enemy if you are playing Guard for example.

I actually wonder if taking a trio of Armiger Warglaives would be a good source of anti-tank for certain armies. Particularly for Guard, whose only other good source is Leman Russes, which are slower and lack any kind of invul save. They could also be good for Custodes as an alternative to their nerfed jetbikes (although they could be better off with a Caladius or Achillus Dreads).

The melee Arminger reminds me a lot of a wulfen dreadnought. And they are great.

I am also painting up a castelan I can ally into my wolf's. The loss of CP probably makes it not worth it. But the triple redemptor really likes another big plasma backup.

It is probably not the best. But my friend keeps loosing and that is no fun for him. I got to mix it up a bit.

One question: The middle class of knight. Do they loose a gun if they are not mechanicus or imperial (AKA freeblade?)

 Niiai wrote:
One question: The middle class of knight. Do they loose a gun if they are not mechanicus or imperial (AKA freeblade?)

Freeblades still choose to be either Imperialis or Mechanicus so their Stubbers will be according to that choice.

They do? I thought that did not. Or perhaps I am thinking of Imperial Agents.

They pick an allegiance, as they have the keyword, they just don't get the benefit of the Oath. See the Keywords section at the start, rather than the Oaths section.

If your unit is from any other noble house, or if it has the FREEBLADE keyword, you must nominate whether it owes allegiance to the Imperium or the Adeptus Mechanicus. You must replace the <QUESTOR ALLEGIANCE> keyword in every instance on its datasheet with either QUESTOR IMPERIALIS or QUESTOR MECHANICUS respectively.

 Niiai wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:
Freeblades still choose to be either Imperialis or Mechanicus so their Stubbers will be according to that choice.

They do? I thought that did not. Or perhaps I am thinking of Imperial Agents.

They still choose to be Imperialis or Mechanicum but they do not get the associated Questor Allegiance Oath (so no Sacristan Pledge or Vow of Honour). Possibly that is what you were thinking of.

This list went 4-1 in the London Open (81 players):

++ Super-Heavy Detachment -3CP (Imperium - Imperial Knights) [105 PL, 9CP, 2,000pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Chivalric Oath: Oath: Defend the Realm, Oath: Lay Low The Tyrants

+ Lord of War +

Armiger Helverins [16 PL, -2CP, 320pts]
. Armiger Helverin: Heirloom: The Bastard's Helm, Heirlooms of the Household, House Krast, Meltagun
. Armiger Helverin: Heirloom (Krast): The Headsman's Mark, Heirlooms of the Household, House Krast, Meltagun

Armiger Helverins [16 PL, 320pts]
. Armiger Helverin: House Krast, Meltagun
. Armiger Helverin: House Krast, Meltagun

Armiger Warglaives [24 PL, 450pts]
. Armiger Warglaive: House Krast, Meltagun
. Armiger Warglaive: House Krast, Meltagun
. Armiger Warglaive: House Krast, Meltagun

Armiger Warglaives [24 PL, 450pts]
. Armiger Warglaive: House Krast, Meltagun
. Armiger Warglaive: House Krast, Meltagun
. Armiger Warglaive: House Krast, Meltagun

Knight Errant [25 PL, -1CP, 460pts]: Character (Knight Lance), Heirloom: Sanctuary, House Krast, Questor Cognis Heavy Stubber, Reaper Chainsword, Revered Paragon, Warlord, Warlord Trait (Krast): First Knight, Warlord Trait: Ion Bulwark
. Exalted Court: Master of Lore: Knightly Teaching: The Knight's Faith

++ Total: [105 PL, 9CP, 2,000pts] ++

Interesting list. The first 1+10 list I've seen.
I prefer 2 Errants due to their synergy with its bonds.

Believe it or not, yours truly just won a 56-person GT with a Knights list.

The list:

Game 1
Mission: Death and Zeal
Opponent's Army: Grey Knights
I chose the secondaries Abhor the Witch, Yield No Ground, and Grind Them Down. My opponent chose Bring It Down, Purification Ritual, and I can't remember what else. My opponent made a huge mistake in deployment and left his Librarian (tooled up with lots of mortal wound output) exposed somewhat. He also didn't pop the GK equivalent of Transhuman Physiology on his Paladins soon enough, as I think he underestimated my firepower. I also did a ton of mortals to him with Calculated Targeting and Blessed by the Sacristans on the Crusader. I had given one of the Warglaives Advance & Charge from my Errant, and that Warglaive ran up and chopped the super-Librarian in half. My opponent still managed to make a game of it, but I did end up nearly tabling him in the end. Final score 85-72.

Game 2
Mission: Data-Scry Salvage
Opponent's Army: Black Templars
I took Duel of Honor, Grind Them Down, and Stranglehold, and my opponent took Bring It Down, Retrieve Nachmund Data, and again I can't remember what else he took. This game ended up being more one-sided than the last one, as thanks to some ice cold dice on my opponent's part he just couldn't do enough damage to my Knights to matter (he only took out one or two Armigers), even when Helbrecht got involved. He did manage to stop me from scoring super high though. Final score was 76-34.

Game 3
Mission: The Scouring
Opponent's Army: Craftworld Aeldari (Ulthwe)
I was pretty nervous going into this one. I don't remember exactly which secondaries I ended up taking other than Assassinate (my opponent had 5 characters including Eldrad Ulthran and the Avatar of Khaine). It was a pretty closely-fought game for most of it, although my opponent played a bit too cagily in the first couple of turns instead of shoving the Avatar straight down my throat (that brute absolutely eats Knights for breakfast!). The highlight of the game for me was when the Avatar killed my Crusader in close combat, and then it stood back up thanks to Our Darkest Hour. The game was an absolute bloodbath, with only my two Helverins, the Avatar, and Eldrad still standing when the game ended. Final score was 77-58.

Game 4
Mission: Tide of Conviction
Opponent's Army: Death Guard (The Inexorable)
I took Duel of Honor, Grind Them Down, and Stranglehold; my opponent chose Bring It Down, Retrieve Nachmund Data, and To The Last. I had a couple of lucky breaks during this game: I managed to vaporize my opponent's Warlord with Overwatch from my Errant (got me 3 points from Duel), and I made a couple of clutch saves with an Armiger to get my Stranglehold (he had shot at it with a PBC and it only had one wound left). It ended up being amazingly close and was my lowest-scoring game; my opponent is a really good player and very nearly defeated me. Final score was 63-60.

Game 5
Mission: Recover the Relics
Opponent's Army: Adeptus Custodes (with 3 Freeblade Armiger Helverins)
I took the same secondaries as the previous game; my opponent took Stranglehold, Bring It Down, and Raise the Banners High. This was another fairly brutal game, with both my and my opponent's dice being pretty fickle at different times. Ultimately, partially due to how the terrain was, my firepower ended up winning out, as Custodes don't do a whole lot of damage at range. Trajann was a raid boss though, taking out the Errant and a Warglaive basically by himself before being eradicated in one volley from the Crusader (which had itself survived being shot at and charged by some jetbikes). Final score was 92-63.

To say a 5-0 finish was unexpected would be a massive understatement; I hadn't had very much practice with Knights before this event. My battle scores were low enough that I shouldn't have won, but for a single thing; the two Tyranid players on the top table ended up with a draw, leaving me as the only player to go 5-0. This was my first GT win ever, and I'm psyched, to say the least! Imperial Knights are the real deal, folks. I will say that part of why I did so well wasn't any major skill on my part, but because the terrain was such that it favored shooting armies like mine. I also had some lucky breaks in most if not all of my games, and probably more than a little help from the man upstairs.

There is one change to my list that I want to make, and that is to switch out the Heart of Ion on the Errant for Sanctuary. Heart of Ion basically did nothing for me; I forgot to even use it in most of my games. Sanctuary would have been massively helpful, though. The other change I have briefly considered would be to switch out the Errant for a Preceptor. I don't like the firepower (or rather, lack thereof) on the Preceptor, but it would make the Renew the Oaths secondary much more viable, as an Armiger could do the action without having to give up its firepower. Duel of Honor is a cute secondary, but it's kind of a "win more" deal and it's not easy to get more than 10 points from it.

Great job! Congratulations!
What would you change for the next tourney?
The list was 3+4. Could you imagine 2+7 ?

Sincere congratulations! That is an amazing achievement and you have every right to feel proud of it!

Amazing and excellent! I've been worrying about Knight staying power, what with all the mortal wounds running around, but looks like that can be compensated for, or at least avoided with some skill.

Question: my own current listcrafting drops one of the Warglaives for bumping the Errant to a Crusader and getting everyone Exalted Court and Carapace Weapons- a 3-3 list. Did the second Warglaive prove extremely useful? Or were you missing some firepower?

House Taranis 3+4 lists did well this weekend; this list placed fourth in a GT (although I prefer ZergSmasher’s list):

++ Super-Heavy Detachment -3CP (Imperium - Imperial Knights) [107 PL, 4CP, 2,000pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

Chivalric Oath: Oath: Defend the Realm, Oath: Refuse No Challenge

Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]

+ Lord of War +

Armiger Helverins [8 PL, 155pts]
. Armiger Helverin: House Taranis, Questor Cognis Heavy Stubber

Armiger Warglaives [24 PL, 450pts]
. Armiger Warglaive: House Taranis, Meltagun
. Armiger Warglaive: House Taranis, Meltagun
. Armiger Warglaive: House Taranis, Meltagun

Knight Crusader [28 PL, -2CP, 515pts]: Exalted Court: Master Tactician, Heirloom: Endless Fury, Heirlooms of the Household, House Taranis, Knight Baron, Questor Cognis Heavy Stubber, Warlord Trait: Blessed by the Sacristans
. Rapid-Fire Battle Cannon w/ Questor Cognis Heavy Stubber

Knight Gallant [22 PL, -2CP, 420pts]: Exalted Court: Master of Vox, Heirloom: Sanctuary, Heirlooms of the Household, House Taranis, Knight Baron, Questor Cognis Heavy Stubber, Warlord Trait (Taranis): Knight of Mars

Knight Paladin [25 PL, -1CP, 460pts]: Character (Knight Lance), Exalted Court: Princeps, Heirloom: Armour of the Sainted Ion, House Taranis, Questor Cognis Heavy Stubber, Reaper Chainsword, Revered Paragon, Warlord, Warlord Trait: Ion Bulwark, Warlord Trait: Knight Seneschal
. Rapid-Fire Battle Cannon w/ Questor Cognis Heavy Stubber

++ Total: [107 PL, 4CP, 2,000pts] ++

wuestenfux wrote:Great job! Congratulations!
What would you change for the next tourney?
The list was 3+4. Could you imagine 2+7 ?

The main change I've thought of is a small one: replace the Heart of Ion on the Errant with Sanctuary. Heart of Ion is not a terrible relic, but it's of limited use on an Errant and I only popped it once during the whole event I think. Having a 4++ in combat is always useful though, hence the switch. The other change I've considered is much more radical, and that is to replace the Errant with a Preceptor and the Preceptor-specific relic. I could then use the Renew the Oaths secondary thanks to being able to use the Teaching that allows an Armiger to perform an action and still shoot (with so few models you don't want to give up your shooting ever if you can help it). The 5+++ teaching could be useful as well, as the 6+++ from Taranis only works against normal wounds (not mortals). I don't particularly like 2+7 builds, mainly because you can't buff all the Armigers. Having more models is definitely a plus for board control though; that's something that becomes a struggle bus once a few Knights go down. One other player at the event was running a House Krast 2+7 list, but I don't remember how he did.

bmsattler wrote:Sincere congratulations! That is an amazing achievement and you have every right to feel proud of it!

Thank you very much! It was a wild ride to be sure!

RedX wrote:Amazing and excellent! I've been worrying about Knight staying power, what with all the mortal wounds running around, but looks like that can be compensated for, or at least avoided with some skill.

Question: my own current listcrafting drops one of the Warglaives for bumping the Errant to a Crusader and getting everyone Exalted Court and Carapace Weapons- a 3-3 list. Did the second Warglaive prove extremely useful? Or were you missing some firepower?

I got pretty lucky and managed to dodge most if not all of the mortal wound stuff (like Nids and their Maleceptors). If my first round opponent (Grey Knights) hadn't made such a major misplay, I would have felt it against him for sure, as that Librarian was loaded for bear!

So you were thinking of running 2 Crusaders? I don't think I would; the melee output on the others is too good to pass up, as your opponent will eventually reach you and you don't want to be stuck with just trying to kick them. Being able to do good damage in multiple phases is part of what makes Knights strong. For the same reason, it's good to have 2 Warglaives. Gives good board control, their firepower cannot be ignored, and they can actually hurt stuff in melee.

 ZergSmasher wrote:


So you were thinking of running 2 Crusaders? I don't think I would; the melee output on the others is too good to pass up, as your opponent will eventually reach you and you don't want to be stuck with just trying to kick them. Being able to do good damage in multiple phases is part of what makes Knights strong. For the same reason, it's good to have 2 Warglaives. Gives good board control, their firepower cannot be ignored, and they can actually hurt stuff in melee.

Interesting, thank you! I suppose I've been looking at things a bit too like the pre-codex set-up, where Avenger Cannons were the best ranged weapon and Titanic Feat were in many cases better than the melee weapons. Amazing what the Thermal Cannon damage boost and a Sweep profile can do. Having an Errant's Advance-and-Charge for Warglaives (plus the super-Advance strat) is a nice one too- as you appear to have demonstrated.

Trick is finding ways to pare down everything else until I can squeeze that Warglaive in. Decisions, decisions...

Well done zerg


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also small suggestion but could master of lore be a good compromise on a more worthy chassis than a preceptor. You can then have a bondsman ability + stick action and shoot on a unit and you don’t have to deal with the preceptors lacklustre weapon

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Well done zerg


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also small suggestion but could master of lore be a good compromise on a more worthy chassis than a preceptor. You can then have a bondsman ability + stick action and shoot on a unit and you don’t have to deal with the preceptors lacklustre weapon

I actually thought of that, but that upgrade costs more points than the Master of Vox upgrade and I didn't quite have enough to spare. If I had 3 Warglaive models, I could make it happen, but alas I don't. My original list actually did have that upgrade, on a Gallant (which saves points over a Paladin/Errant/Warden), but I don't think Gallants are good unless you have a way to charge them in on the first turn. If you bring an Errant Princeps, just give the Gallant the Advance + Charge bondsman ability and go smash stuff! Otherwise, stick to the mixed loadout Knights or perhaps a single Crusader (which is what I had).

Also, I'm gonna go ahead and say it: the Crusader, with Endless Fury, a RFBC, and the Blessed by the Sacristans trait, is just disgusting. You'll get the full 6 mortals a lot of the time, and that is massively helpful (really made a difference in my games). Pop Calculated Targeting on it, and even your Stubbers are pumping out 2 mortals for each 6 to wound (one for BbtS, one for CT). Just nuts!

So the rumour is that we will be going to just six Command Points in a couple of weeks with the new Chapter Approved, and that the first Warlord Trait and Relic will no longer be free. To compensate, you will gain a CP in both players’ Command Phases. How will that affect lists?

My first instinct is that we will need to skimp on pre-game CP use. I would always like to start with at least 1 CP, so that I can Rotate Shields turn 1 even if going second. This would mean a combined maximum of 5 Traits and Relics. That is annoying for a 3+4 list, as they tend to want to have a trait and an heirloom on each big knight.

Yeah, a 3+4 list like mine would probably just have to live without one of the traits and/or one of the relics. That change is also going to make Defend the Realm even more of an auto-include, as far as Oaths go. Knights lists live and die by their ability to use strats. I doubt I would have been able to win that event without plenty of CP.

I'm concerned that the Calculated Targeting stratagem will paint a target on the knight that is built to take advantage of it. Big knights aren't that hard to kill and Imperials don't have many ways of changing that. Units like Tau Broadsides can sit behind a building and just savage a big knight.

What have people's experiences been in that regard? I see that most of the successful armies have been Taranis to take advantage of the warlord trait combo, so it works. Is it just a matter of luck, or not? What techniques have you used to keep it alive long enough to make a difference?

Feadair wrote:
So the rumour is that we will be going to just six Command Points in a couple of weeks with the new Chapter Approved, and that the first Warlord Trait and Relic will no longer be free. To compensate, you will gain a CP in both players’ Command Phases. How will that affect lists?

My first instinct is that we will need to skimp on pre-game CP use. I would always like to start with at least 1 CP, so that I can Rotate Shields turn 1 even if going second. This would mean a combined maximum of 5 Traits and Relics. That is annoying for a 3+4 list, as they tend to want to have a trait and an heirloom on each big knight.

It depends if they adjust detatchments at the same time. Because a knights soup/aux becomes almost unworkable if half your cp is on detatchments.