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Tallonian4th wrote:
That makes sense as to why Scions are overwhelmingly depicted as male, compared to Guard being male and female. All the best women for combat would have all ready been hived off for the SoB and the best of everything else into their respective branches. So very few left by the time the 'rest' end up as Scions.

I was under the impression from the Gaunt books that Commissars where specifically orphans of great families, high up military officers, etc. Some sort of way of 'looking after' loyal and useful bloodlines.

In the old days thats what the schola were, orphans of imperial officers and senior officials.

Someone mentioned earlier that commissars were chosen for leadership abilities. I disagree, being very execute-y isn’t a great leadership quality. I imagine much more they are chosen due to their love of rules and sociopathic tendencies.

Commissars still need leadership abilities, executions are for ineffective officers or cowards who flee the battle. Commissars are still political officers who have to be able to encourage and lift the spirits of the soldiery with tales of glory and heroism.
You will absolutely get the ones who are very trigger-happy, such as the one leading the R.I.P. detachment in The Armour of Contempt, but you will also find the inspiring type, such as the Belladon Commissar in His Last Command. What makes a "good" Commissar is that they are able to inspire and have comradery with a soldier one minute then gun them down if they flee in the next.

I think it's a fair point to say that the writings in Cain's books show an average lack of actual study. He makes it sound more like Hogwarts than Harvard. He attended lectures, did a lot of sports (Scrumball) and did combat training. One of the books talked about how his Swordsmanship teachers thought he was one of the greatest pupils they'd ever witnessed, able to beat most of the teachers at an early age.

Again, if this is to be believed at all, it's likely his martial prowess was the deciding factor, rather than his grades on High Gothic or philosophy.

The Cain's books were also written long before anything was about the Schola, even then, the only other detailed source for it that I know of is the Scion Codex, which makes the Schola sound hyper mega super grimdark.

It would explain the wild differences between Cain, Mortensen, Andrej or Gaunt versus the more emotion-drained Scion from the latest Gaunt's book. Then again, Raine and her Scion buddy have more personality than what the codex implies, though she, at least, seems more of a typical Commissar than the other characters mentioned prior.

TBF just because most Scions got mindwiped when they were young doesn't mean they stayed that way or that some were even wiped in the first place. I mean look at Astartes, they get massive amounts of hypno-indoctrination and mind-wiping but still have personalities, well most do at least.
If we take the Armageddon Stormtroopers as an example, the entire planet is dedicated to war just like Cadia or Catachan. Cadian Kasrkins are very close to what Scions are but they don't come from the Schola. The Armageddon Stormtroopers could just be the same, veteran soldiers of the Steel Legion with advanced tactics and training that brings them to the equal of what most other worlds and Regiments would call Scions. 40k is a big galaxy, there's no reason both instances can't be true. I mean in the Gaunt book with the Scions, Rawne specifically calls them Stormtroopers and "Glory Boys", while he refers to the Astra Militarum as the Imperial Guard.

Didn't Helsreach campaign take place long before they were created? I mean they were Storm Troopers, but I thought Scions were something basically created to be a "better than Stormtrooper" thing. Whereas Stormtroopers were specifically a Unit based thing, where they are property of the specific regiment, Scions were a specialized task force, created to operate completely outside of and independent of IG Command. Like, they don't need tank or heavy arms detachments, a Scion Force is completely self contained.

I am likely wrong here. I admit it, my headcanon as I was creating my scions in 8th, and reading their codex entries.

Regarding my mentions of the Cain books: of course, their lore value has to be evaluated very critically. I just wanted to mention how it is described there.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Didn't Helsreach campaign take place long before they were created? I mean they were Storm Troopers, but I thought Scions were something basically created to be a "better than Stormtrooper" thing. Whereas Stormtroopers were specifically a Unit based thing, where they are property of the specific regiment, Scions were a specialized task force, created to operate completely outside of and independent of IG Command. Like, they don't need tank or heavy arms detachments, a Scion Force is completely self contained.

I am likely wrong here. I admit it, my headcanon as I was creating my scions in 8th, and reading their codex entries.

Stormtroopers and Scions are the same thing. GW turned the single unit of Stormtroopers into the Militarum Tempestus "army" with a plastic kit for Scions (Stormtroopers), a command squad, a new Commissar, and the Tauroxes. Old Stormtroopers and newer Scions do the same things, Valkyrie drops and infiltration missions with only the name and model design changed.
Kasrkin, Catachan Devils, Death Korps Grenadiers, Steel Legion Stormtroopers, and Inquisitorial Stormtroopers are all variants on the wider Scion soldier template with similar weapons and advanced training but with different mission parameters e.g. the Grenadiers function as more heavily armed and armoured Veteran squads that fight alongside regular troops and Catachan Devils are primarily for long-range long-term infiltration or search and destroy missions.

The Steel Legion was never described as having its own in-regiment Stormtroopers, as far as I know, and most instances that I know of such units, they have distinct names (Grenadiers, Kasrkins). I think the easy distinction you can make is that Stormtroopers/Scions are their own things, and Grenadiers are the term for vets with hellguns and carapace armor. Kasrkins are just renamed Grenadiers.

 Bobthehero wrote:
The Steel Legion was never described as having its own in-regiment Stormtroopers, as far as I know, and most instances that I know of such units, they have distinct names (Grenadiers, Kasrkins). I think the easy distinction you can make is that Stormtroopers/Scions are their own things, and Grenadiers are the term for vets with hellguns and carapace armor. Kasrkins are just renamed Grenadiers.

Helsreach has them as POV characters like halfway through the book chief. Like the Death Korps Grenadiers they're the cream of the crop, the best of their Regiments. We've also seen this with the Royal Volpone Regiments where their elite Regiment, the Volpone 1st maintained troops with Carapace Armour and Hellguns (Hot Shot Lasguns).
The Kasrkin are actually closer to the Scions as they get picked out of the Whiteshield ranks and sent to special academies (well they did before Cadia went boom).
There are Regiments of Grenadiers, Scions, Kasrkin, and Stormtroopers and their missions, tactics, and equipment often cross paths. They also often don't get deployed en-masse but are used as force multipliers or as guards for high-ranking officers.

I've read Helsreach, and through it all Andrej is refered as a Stormtrooper, hence why I assume he's an actual Scion/Stormtrooper rather than a Kasrkin/Grenadier or whatever the Steel Legion's equivalent is.

My point wasn't that they aren't the exact same thing on paper, but that the LORE has them as separate. The Books still don't reference Scions at all. Just Storm Troopers. Hell, they reference Elysian Drop Troops, but not Scions, which are essentially that with storm troopers. Also, Storm Troopers don't have access to the Scion Weapons. Scions are the only unit in the game that can use the Hot Shot Volley Guns. A Normal unit of Cadians cannot use or pick a Taurox Prime. The rules and the Lore seem to keep them seperate. That's all I am trying to point out.

Stormtroopers and Scions are the same thing.
Prior to 6th Edition there were no Scions and when 6th came out Stormtroopers were renamed to Tempestus Scions within their own special branch called the Militarum Tempestus.
Certain Guard Regiments maintain their own Scion equivilant and while these are similar to Scions they are not Scions.
Does that clear it up?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I think it's a fair point to say that the writings in Cain's books show an average lack of actual study. He makes it sound more like Hogwarts than Harvard. He attended lectures, did a lot of sports (Scrumball) and did combat training. One of the books talked about how his Swordsmanship teachers thought he was one of the greatest pupils they'd ever witnessed, able to beat most of the teachers at an early age.

Again, if this is to be believed at all, it's likely his martial prowess was the deciding factor, rather than his grades on High Gothic or philosophy.

Only if you take a very shallow dive -

As far as I know Hogwarts does not use human prisoners as targets for live fire exercises or to practice torture techniques on -but I don;t like Harry potter so maybe wrong

Cain has plenty of darkness its just more subtle and that Cain and Amberley are seemingly "nice" people but they can and will do things we think are horrible....

Also Amberley often corrects Cain's slips or errors

That being said its just a source and written before the more recent super girm-dark Stromtrooper stuff was written. I prefer his version but the Imperium is big enough for both.

As far as I know Hogwarts does not use human prisoners as targets for live fire exercises or to practice torture techniques on -but I don;t like Harry potter so maybe wrong

They mostly torment animals and the occasional magical creature rather than other humans. Although the school culture is set up to encourage animosity and infighting between the school-assigned factions.

I prefer his version but the Imperium is big enough for both.

Agreed. Enjoy what you enjoy, but I really liked how Cain flavored the setting. Still full of terrible, terrible things even on a mass scale, but with enough patches of not-awful to make me believe human beings would be able to stand it. What's her face on Amberley's team was basically selling hotdogs (or something like them) on the street when we first met her. There are hot dog vendors. There are people with enough pocket cash to buy street food in a busy city but not so much cash that they'd prefer to avoid the questionable street food.

Wyldhunt wrote:

As far as I know Hogwarts does not use human prisoners as targets for live fire exercises or to practice torture techniques on -but I don;t like Harry potter so maybe wrong

They mostly torment animals and the occasional magical creature rather than other humans. Although the school culture is set up to encourage animosity and infighting between the school-assigned factions.

I prefer his version but the Imperium is big enough for both.

Agreed. Enjoy what you enjoy, but I really liked how Cain flavored the setting. Still full of terrible, terrible things even on a mass scale, but with enough patches of not-awful to make me believe human beings would be able to stand it. What's her face on Amberley's team was basically selling hotdogs (or something like them) on the street when we first met her. There are hot dog vendors. There are people with enough pocket cash to buy street food in a busy city but not so much cash that they'd prefer to avoid the questionable street food.

Agreed - or the way Amberely remembered fondly her primer as a child with the burning wheels crushing heretics. I think you need the lighter stuff to make the darkness more effective - good comedy dramas excell at this.

Exactly. It's way more fun slaughtering a world when its inhabitants have something worth living for!

Otherwise it's like, "Oh. You're cutting me in half with a chainsaw? Heck yeah, dude. I was looking at another miserable decade of back-breaking labor and disgusting food rations before my poisoned body finally fell into the mud and got trampled by my coworkers. A couple seconds of chainsaw pain instead sounds great!"

From the Imperial Guard 2nd Edition Codex under Stormtroopers:

"The Storm Troopers are the Imperial Guard's best fighting regiment. Unlike other regiments they are recruited from all across the Imperium, and they wear a distinctive uniform which is instantly recognizable...The regiment is unusually large, with as many as ten thousand men under arms at one time...Storm Troopers are recruited from the orphan sons of Imperial officials from all over the galaxy. The families of men who die in the Emperor's service are looked after well by the missions of the Imperial Cult, the most famous of which are the Schola Progenium...

Many of those who pass through the hands of the Schola Progenium are initiated into the Adeptus Terra. Some find their way into the Inquisition. The Ecclesiarchy welcomes the studious and the most zealous. For the natural warriors and leaders the Imperial Guard offers a place amongst the staff officer corps or the Storm Troopers. Many Commissars found the unbreakable strength of their faith in the missionary orphanages..."

So there you go. Natural warriors and leaders go to be staff officers (booerns!) or the Storm Troopers (urah!). Hopefully this puts your mind at ease.

The Schola isnt really that much different from most schools.
.1% maybe, get creamed by the Inq or Navs.
60% are destined for mundane office work.
24% go to the sisters, Mainly in hosptallier roles mostly not combat rolls.
10% who display some aptitude for physical sports, or just like beating other people up go to the Arbites, Storm Troopers.
5% go to church.
1% just seem manage do all the above.

Theres a lot of overlap there, but Cain managed the gift of the gab, with a arm to back it up. And lots of lots of luck.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
All these problems were just caused by making sisters their own big huge thing. I would have loved it if Greg knights, deathwatch, sisters, and inquisition were all just one big mashed faction, it would solve the issue of sisters breaking lore to have their own weird game mechanic, and stop deathwatch from just being another marine faction.

I'm not sure if Deathwatch an Grey Knights existed prior to the 3rd ed "Chambers Militant" era, but certainly Sisters did. They had a 2nd edition codex, and it didn't include the Inquisition. In this era, the connection with the Ecclesiarchy was the army's focus; the 3rd ed. Witch Hunter dex, awesome as it was, tiptoed at the edge of Retcon; the Sisters' role as the Chamber Militant of Hereticus took precedence over their role as the fighting force of the Ecclesiarchy. We were essentially ignored from 4-7 (with plastic Celestine being a part of the transition between 7th - 8th). Currently, GW is leaning hard into the Ecclesiarchy- especially in 9th where they have finally made something of Priests.

Faith is not a game breaking mechanic- it has existed since the beginning, though it has taken many forms over the years, mimicking psychic powers was never a thing for them- faith has had different mechanics from edition to edition, but it has always been its own mechanic.

As for Death Watch, Kill Teams- of which there are now four distinct varieties, are quite unique as far as marines go; Space Wolves and Blood Angels are far closer to standard, generic Marines than DW are; specialisms and special ammo seal the deal, but it's the Kill Teams that make the DW what they are. Their fluff is also radically different- they don't exist as a "Chapter" - instead, they are a collection of independent watch fortresses spread across the galaxy.

You're not the only one to suggest consolidating the Imperial Factions this way. It would be a game breaking decision for anyone who plays a Chamber Militant army- there is literally no way it can be done without losing a tremendous number of options, a tremendous amount of fluff and flavour. They would outright have to cut datacards from every chamber army to make it happen; we'd lose subfaction traits, relics and WL traits- stuff that I've been wanting for since second edition.

If anything, GW should make an Imperial Agents dex. The Chamber Militant books are fine as they are, and both the Imperial Agents rule and the detachment system both facilitate the flexibility that the Inquisition needs to work with its Chambers; they just need a real list. They don't even need new units if done properly. I'm still hoping GW uses Kill Team to solve the Inquisition problem by making GOOD acolyte units.

Grey knights have been around since 1st editon and been chamber militant of the ordo since then too, had a full army list in slaves to darkness.

Any mention of stormtroopers from books/fluff released before the scion retcon (6th edition) just read as scions. Simples.

Bring back commissar training squads I say.

I think people are overlooking something with the faith and miracles bit. All those who show true faith get sent to the ecclesiarchy. There they get separated into the subset of girls who have the best physical aptitudes and also are surgically compatible with their power armour interface ports (some will doubtless outright reject the implants on a physiological level) who get sent to the Sororitas while everyone else (male and female) gets sent to the priesthood.
So there should be priests and choristers and all that who are capable of manifesting miracles but they are going to be lone individuals most of the time so the net effect is probably less. That said a full choir of the cream of the crop singing the Emperor’s praises on a holy day on a shrineworld? Probably glow with divine power as a bare minimum and might well coincidentally heal the entire congregation…

Miracles are a very rare occurrence within the Imperium (SoB Miracle Dice don't count because that's a game mechanic).
The various Convents of the Sororitas recruit from many different places with the only requirement being intense faith. Not everyone within the Order has to be a Battle Sister after all.

I always found it odd that Rhaine didn't get sent over to the convents rather than the Commissariat. She's an incredibly fervent person, but I guess her father's last act, and her mother's "fall" had something to do with her getting passed over.

Or her fervor is relatively recent? I haven't read the books in a long time, though, so I may be wrong.

It generally is odd that Commisars aren't men. Sometimes a girl from the Schola just doesn't believe hard enough in the God Emperor to be a Sororitas.

 Gert wrote:
It generally is odd that Commisars aren't men. Sometimes a girl from the Schola just doesn't believe hard enough in the God Emperor to be a Sororitas.

Generally doesn't believe hard enough in the God Emperor is often enough to get someone blammed....

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 Gert wrote:
It generally is odd that Commisars aren't men. Sometimes a girl from the Schola just doesn't believe hard enough in the God Emperor to be a Sororitas.

Generally doesn't believe hard enough in the God Emperor is often enough to get someone blammed....

Uh, no, not even slightly? They’re very down on worshipping the wrong gods for obvious reasons but they don’t seem to have it out for atheists and holy-day-only types nearly so much.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Generally doesn't believe hard enough in the God Emperor is often enough to get someone blammed....

No. Everyone in the Imperium believes in the God Emperor. The reality of that belief is a different matter.
For example, some Veterans of the Guard believe the Emperor is divine but doesn't actively intervene in people's lives and is simply a silent witness to humanity's collective suffering.
Those who are more zealous in their belief utterly accept that the Emperor makes Himself present in the lives of every human in one way or another. The latter tends to be very fast and loose with their assumptions e.g. a bad crop indicates the Emperor's displeasure and the farmers must repent and do extra worship.
Most people just believe He exists and that He is their God.

Equally compare the shiria calpurnia (enforcer) novels and how a lot of the public reacts to Sanguinalia - its basically an excuse for a city-wide drinking binge with

"Oh yeah. Plus that piety thing. God Emperor Yay! 'Nother round please..."