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Perhaps consider Marines similarly to Frankenstein's Monster. They are constructed, surgically enhanced and bioengineered beings, that at one point used to be human. There is a dark, romantic, noble aspect to them as defenders of the Imperium. But they were created as tools for an unending war. When you look upon them at first, you see the remenants of that humanity which adds to their unnerving quality.

Consider also the fact that according to your religion, they were made by your God and gene-bred from his sons.

NFL linemen isn't a good analogy beyond the fact that they're big guys.

Consider also the fact that the interactions between mortal humans and the Space Marines tends to occur on the battlefield. Where you and your regiment have been battling a foe that horrendously outmatches you and you are close to breaking point. Then these giants arrive from the skies as your deliverance with destructive weapons and seem impervious to things that have wiped out your comrades.

Also I remember in the first HH book after they see the lunar wolf get turned into a demon Horus sits Garro (citation needed) down and pours them both a glass of wine from a bottle and into some cups that are just there, not specifically for a primarch and marine. So if they were sooooooo much bigger than a human they would have been sitting for a thimble of wine, that can’t actually get them drunk, I.e there would be no point.

They can't get drunk anyway. You need something like mjod or other virtually-chemical-warfare spirit to seriously affect a marine, let alone a primarch.

Also, as a counterexample, Gulliman's furniture:

"The main change that Lord Guilliman had made in the decades he had occupied the Residency was to have most of the human-scaled furniture removed and replaced with objects built for a primarch’s dimensions: the desk, four chairs, a footstool, and a day bed. There were other items proportioned for the physicality of a Legiones Astartes battle-brother, and Prayto sat upon such a chair. The room, therefore, contained three magnitudes of furniture to provide for the Lord of Macragge and any of the advisors and subjects who might attend him.

Positioned correctly, with one of the lord’s massive chairs in the foreground, a Legion-scaled item of furniture in the middle ground, and a chair for human build furthest away, it was possible to play amusing and impossible tricks upon the mind, as the apparent recession of the furniture suggested a distance in the room that the walls and ceiling denied. Reverse the positions and the room appeared to have no depth at all."

If you review the full timespan of 40K artwork and literature it’s clear you will find inconsistency but one consistency I do think you will also see an upscaling of the astartes over a period of time. From rogue trader o now they are much bigger and I think this is a direction GW have wanted to enhance the space marine brand. However there are so many writers and illustrations that it’s hard to get accuracy.

I would have thought the introduction of primaris marines would have would have provided some confirmation of how big they are compared to humans

Like mr fickle said they have been depicted many times but in those many times they always look “human”. Be it art work, models or more recently animations. Look at the grabs from the marine getting dressed video, this is official, sanctioned by and produced for GW. The marine looks like a big bloke. Not a freak or monster, just a massive steroided up bloke. We know very well what there heads and faces look like, models and art work have been pretty consistent with that, square head and manly jawline. Bit battered.

Descriptions in novels have no consistency and all need to be taken with a pinch of salt. Lots of liberties taken for dramatic effect. The animation is consistent with models and most art work produced by GW.

I am in no way saying seeing this big scary looking blokes violently and efficiently killing the enemies of mankind wouldn’t be pant ruiningly scary. But they are “human”, just very big robust humans who can do very impressive things.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yeah, they look human enough, till you realize the scale. Their proportions are 'wrong' for a human. Too large, too broad, too inhuman. They're just more.

Its probably not something that can be experienced unless you are seeing them in-person. Artwork just can't convey that sense of presence.

Well, part of that is the artwork doesn't always (or very rarely) match the descriptions very well. They just look like beefy guys.

There's been some suggestion of pheremones and (for the primarchs) a touch of psychic awe as well.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’m not that fussed for Astartes on the board. But in the background I’m hooked.

Yeah, despite my absurdly large marine army, I agree. I wish that the Astartes on the table played like Custodies do, 10-20 marines taking on an army like the do in the fluff. (And that we'd never got Custodies, or that maybe you could take 1 as a hero character or something, but no more.)

I'd be down for updated Movie Marine stats/points.


Custodes feel better as a 1-5 squad and only as characters.

But then GW couldn't sell you 2k pts + of super, super maines.

Movie Marines were never meant to be serious, or fluffy, they have stunt doubles and cool shades guy.

And once again, ''fluffy'' Marines depends on what lore you read. There's instances of 10 Kasrking killing two Plague Marines and losing 3 men in return. Doesn't strike me like 10-20 Marines could take an army from those numbers.

 Tawnis wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’m not that fussed for Astartes on the board. But in the background I’m hooked.

Yeah, despite my absurdly large marine army, I agree. I wish that the Astartes on the table played like Custodies do, 10-20 marines taking on an army like the do in the fluff. (And that we'd never got Custodies, or that maybe you could take 1 as a hero character or something, but no more.)

You want to play 1st/2nd edition. Yiu couldn’t squeeze many marines into an army in those days.

Andykp wrote:

 Tawnis wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’m not that fussed for Astartes on the board. But in the background I’m hooked.

Yeah, despite my absurdly large marine army, I agree. I wish that the Astartes on the table played like Custodies do, 10-20 marines taking on an army like the do in the fluff. (And that we'd never got Custodies, or that maybe you could take 1 as a hero character or something, but no more.)

You want to play 1st/2nd edition. Yiu couldn’t squeeze many marines into an army in those days.

Yeah custodies with they were as tough as 2nd edition terminators.

But they were that good wearing leather armour....

A 5 man squad of Grey Knight Terminators in 1st ed was 1200 points

As scary as it would be to meet a space marine, imagine how much scarier it would be to meet a chaos marine....

Has anyone mentioned salamanders in this thread yet?

Don’t they live with their original families on their homeworld? Although I assume they tend to outlive their parents and siblings by a long way.

But isn’t the whole point of that they they are compassionate and equal with humans and so I assume humans talk to them like they would anyone else.

In comparison I think the human serfs that work for the Dark Angles, for example, are probably not well respected and are best seen and not heard. I mean the word serf is not full of respect is it.

I did not know that about Salamanders. The only thing I really know is that they are nicer than a lot of other Marines.

I know that sort of sounds nice for them to return to their families. But it sounds sort of horrifying. Imagine your son that you gave up for dead returns to you however many years later as this gigantic barely human creature and tries to be friendly to you. It seems like a spirit of the dead returning to you in a body it has made for itself.

Or indeed the Monkeys Paw short story. The family wish so hard for their child to return and what visits at the door but an adeptus astartes.

They must build their furniture well on Nocturne.

Salamanders who aren't deployed will often act as elders in the settlements they originally came from. They act as sources of wisdom and council for the Nocturnian humans and live among them to remind the Astartes why they fight for the Emperor.

But do they treat the other nociturn human with equality or do they see themselves as superior?

Superior but not in a "bad" way, rather they see themselves as the guardians of humanity gifted with the ability to defend those who cannot defend themselves.

mrFickle wrote:
Has anyone mentioned salamanders in this thread yet?

Don’t they live with their original families on their homeworld? Although I assume they tend to outlive their parents and siblings by a long way.

But isn’t the whole point of that they they are compassionate and equal with humans and so I assume humans talk to them like they would anyone else.

In comparison I think the human serfs that work for the Dark Angles, for example, are probably not well respected and are best seen and not heard. I mean the word serf is not full of respect is it.

The Sallies are definitely all around nice guys. I do believe they maintain contact with their actual biological families, at least as long as they live. Its worth noting that humans on Nocturne don't just have nuclear family units, they live in a clan based society and each clan is a family. So its not just their parents and siblings. It'll be cousins and all of their descendants down the line as the decades and centuries pass.

I haven’t read any book set in 41st where a space marine chapter is under the command of a human in the AM or imperial navy, does that ever happen? It happened pre heresy but in under the impression that if SM are called to a war zone where the AM is active they will just show up and take over or ignore the AM and do their own thing.

So maybe the answer to how space marines treat humans on 41st is ‘it depends if you are important to their objective’

 PaddyMick wrote:


As scary as it would be to meet a space marine, imagine how much scarier it would be to meet a chaos marine....

the truely terrifying thing is that you proably wouldn't be able to tell until he screams "for chaos" instead of "for the emperor" as he starts to butcher you

mrFickle wrote:Has anyone mentioned salamanders in this thread yet?

Don’t they live with their original families on their homeworld? Although I assume they tend to outlive their parents and siblings by a long way.

But isn’t the whole point of that they they are compassionate and equal with humans and so I assume humans talk to them like they would anyone else.

In comparison I think the human serfs that work for the Dark Angles, for example, are probably not well respected and are best seen and not heard. I mean the word serf is not full of respect is it.

Salamanders act as blacksmiths in their settlements(which is important) in Nocturnian Society. Often a relative of a Salamander will pass the test to become one. They are integrated as a revered leader and protector. The Nocturnians are generally ignorant of the wider Imperium. They need to deal with Deldar incursions and have since before Vulkan landed.

Gert wrote:Superior but not in a "bad" way, rather they see themselves as the guardians of humanity gifted with the ability to defend those who cannot defend themselves.

The connection is reinforced by the Promethium Cult and its relation to the Imperial truth(not creed) or so it's been intimated in BL 30K/40K books.

The actions of the Salamanders were caused by the Tenets of the Cult. They saw the Desecration of geneseed(badab) as inherently against BiggiE so they took appropriate action. But did not hold the associated chapters in contempt as they did the CL. They offered them protection and recompense for the guilt by proxy charged by the Inquisition. Much to the consternation of the Legate Inquisitor. Since the 18th is a first founding chapter above reproach, the Inq could not come close to challenging the wisdom of BiggiE.
The actions before/during/after HH cemented the honor of the 18th as true protectors of the Imperium.

mrFickle wrote:
I haven’t read any book set in 41st where a space marine chapter is under the command of a human in the AM or imperial navy, does that ever happen? It happened pre heresy but in under the impression that if SM are called to a war zone where the AM is active they will just show up and take over or ignore the AM and do their own thing.

So maybe the answer to how space marines treat humans on 41st is ‘it depends if you are important to their objective’

Space Marines will take orders from Imperial Guard and Navy command, though they're not required to do so. Usually its a case of marines show up, ask the Imperial forces what they need help with, and then they do it while also maintaining situational awareness and adjusting their own plans as necessary.

Conversely, a Chapter Master or Captain might take over overall command if they feel it is warranted. Some chapters are more aggressive in this than others, some might see it as their right and duty to take over. Others will think they are better off leading from the front and not disrupting the Imperial forces with a change in management.

mrFickle wrote:
I haven’t read any book set in 41st where a space marine chapter is under the command of a human in the AM or imperial navy, does that ever happen? It happened pre heresy but in under the impression that if SM are called to a war zone where the AM is active they will just show up and take over or ignore the AM and do their own thing.

So maybe the answer to how space marines treat humans on 41st is ‘it depends if you are important to their objective’

The Legions weren't commanded by mortals during the Heresy, rather it was the opposite. The Expeditionary fleets that contained Astartes elements were commanded by the Astartes or they operated on their own terms with cooperation with mortal forces, but never under their command.
Astartes take requests from mortals, not orders with only a very few exceptions such as Creed or Yarrick.

This photo is Andrew Whitworth an nfl o line man (retired) meeting a soccer player. This is what I meant by using them as an example of an extraordinary human, but still distinctly human. That’s how I imagine marines compared to normal humans. But more menacing (Big Whit is a lovely nice guy by all accounts).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PaddyMick wrote:
A 5 man squad of Grey Knight Terminators in 1st ed was 1200 points

As scary as it would be to meet a space marine, imagine how much scarier it would be to meet a chaos marine....

It chaos guys could spend 900 points on a daemon weapon. Good times.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mrFickle wrote:
I haven’t read any book set in 41st where a space marine chapter is under the command of a human in the AM or imperial navy, does that ever happen? It happened pre heresy but in under the impression that if SM are called to a war zone where the AM is active they will just show up and take over or ignore the AM and do their own thing.

So maybe the answer to how space marines treat humans on 41st is ‘it depends if you are important to their objective’

I always wondered about that in things like Mancharius’ crusade. The lord solar was pretty high ranking. If a company of marines got attached to his crusade would a marine captain take charge or maybe just in a specific theatre of the war. Over all command remains with the normal human??

Its situational. Helsreach sees Grimaldus take command of the city defence plans but he still can't command the Legio Invigilata or the Salamanders, and when he relinquishes tactical command to the Steel Legion they cannot command his forces. However, the Astartes, Mechanicus and Legios all submit to the overall theatre command of Yarrick.
In Cadian Blood a Raven Guard force is assigned to the warzone and the Lord General can only make requests of them.

Andykp wrote:


I always wondered about that in things like Mancharius’ crusade. The lord solar was pretty high ranking. If a company of marines got attached to his crusade would a marine captain take charge or maybe just in a specific theatre of the war. Over all command remains with the normal human??

Yeah, the Lord Solar would remain in command and could give orders to the Marines. But their presence in the crusade would be at the pleasure of their Chapter Master and he could recall them if he wanted. Or they could leave if they felt like they wanted to leave. Mutual respect and understanding is what such a relationship would be based on.

I think people need to understand that the Imperium is a feudal system, not a 'modern' military or political structure. Who gets to command whom and who answers to whom is a result of a sometimes complex network of oaths and traditional obligations.

In general, an Astartes chapter answers only to the Emperor, just like the Inquisition. Nobody else can give them orders.

But some chapters have other obligations or have made deals with other Imperial factions. The Minotaurs follow the orders of the Master of the Administratum. The MotA can literally order the entire chapter to stand down right in the middle of a conflict. As happens in The Regent's Shadow.

Some chapters might be sworn to defend a particular Forgeworld (in return for support and resupply) and always come when a member of that world's AdMech priesthood calls them, regardless of other commitments.

The Space Wolves provide bodyguards to House Belisarius navigators, and those bodyguards are sworn to obey the navigator they're assigned to.

Marines sworn to the Deathwatch are sometimes under the direct command of an Ordo Xenos inquisitor, who can even hold the post of Watch Master.

Joining a crusade includes swearing to follow the commands of the ordained leader of the crusade for the duration, hence marine chapters who joined Macharius on his crusade were obliged to follow his orders. And when he died they were released from their obligations, which is partly why the crusade fell apart after his death.

Do space wolves still have that deal with house belisarius? It felt like that would be retconned now as it doesn’t feel like a space wolf thing to do, not that I know much about their modern persona. Also I thought the name belisarius had been recycled for you know who

Why would it be retconned? The pact with House Belisarius is one of honour, the Wolves supply guardians in exchange for exclusive rights to the House's Navigators. The Chapter gets well trained and poweful Navigators and the House gets the prestige of being allied to a first founding Chapter.
Also people can have the same name as others. Belisarius is the family name of the Navigator House and is Cawl's first name.