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 Gert wrote:
Lexicanum has the Anphelion incident placed in 850.M41 and the First Tyrannic War in 745.M41.
The timeline seems fine to me unless Lex got it wrong.

The First Tyrannic War ended at Macragge with the shattering of Behemoth. The Second Tyrannic War began with Kraken in 992.M41 (990.M41 if you count Ichar IV).

In between there was nothing, with members of the Adeptus Terra arguing an increased military presence on the far Eastern Fringe was unnecessary as Behemoth had been the entire Tyranid race. That is from Epic: Hive War. That seeming complacence was also suggested to be why Ichar IV was not noticed earlier.

Anphelion Project talks of ongoing war with the Tyranid fleets (yes, it uses the word fleets), and it is set in 850.M41. Hence the conflict with the older background, which had the in between period as a lull from any Tyranid attacks at all. Even if one accepts the latest retcon to say Behemoth splinters still survived and picked off a few worlds here and there, that is far different from ceaseless ongoing Tyrannic war generating veterans that participate in the Anphelion Project. It was after Kraken that the Imperium finally realized the Tyranids were a major threat and that the widespread tendrils of Kraken had actually made massive inroads into the Imperium.

Except Behemoth was shattered, not eradicated. It had remnants and splinters scattered through Ultramar which took years to hunt down and destroy.
I'd also like to suggest that just because the political heavy-weights of the Imperium decided the Nid's were done, the Inquisition obviously didn't (hence Anphelion being set up in the first place) and at least some Astartes Chapters including the Ultramarines didn't either.
The actual Anphelion incident also only took place in 850.M41, the project itself could easily have been set up to deal with the ever-adapting splinters of Behemoth remnants such as the Nephilim Court.
The Adeptus Terra members that were also arguing for the demilitarisation of the Eastern Fringe were also all found to have been from the region or had traveled there in the past, suggesting they might have become infected with the Genestealer Curse.

 Gert wrote:
Except Behemoth was shattered, not eradicated.

That is a recent retcon. Originally Behemoth was eradicated.

It had remnants and splinters scattered through Ultramar which took years to hunt down and destroy.
I'd also like to suggest that just because the political heavy-weights of the Imperium decided the Nid's were done, the Inquisition obviously didn't (hence Anphelion being set up in the first place) and at least some Astartes Chapters including the Ultramarines didn't either.
The actual Anphelion incident also only took place in 850.M41, the project itself could easily have been set up to deal with the ever-adapting splinters of Behemoth remnants such as the Nephilim Court.

This was my idea for something like a passable reworking of it. However it still clashes with the then the idea of the Adeptus Terra arguing against such a heavy military presence (see below)

The Adeptus Terra members that were also arguing for the demilitarisation of the Eastern Fringe were also all found to have been from the region or had traveled there in the past, suggesting they might have become infected with the Genestealer Curse.

Citation please?

Hive War has it simply that nothing happened...and the decades of silence made it seem like that the Tyranids were done and the military forces could be redeployed elsewhere instead of just sitting there. Having ongoing running large scale wars with Behemoth remnants changes that from a reasonable, if ultimately wrong, position, to just plain stupid.

Iracundus wrote:
That is a recent retcon. Originally Behemoth was eradicated.

5th Ed Marine and Nid Codexes changed that to shattered. Also, Old One Eye was Behemoth and there is a Genestealer Cult descended from Behemoth. Behemoth has been un-eradicated for quite some time.

Citation please?

The first bit is as above but for the latter, I can't find exact citations just that it's on the Lex page for Kraken:
https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Kraken#fn_7

Hive War has it simply that nothing happened...and the years of silence made it seem like that the Tyranids were done and the military forces could be redeployed elsewhere instead of just sitting there.

Personally, I would find more than one source for my stuff and certainly wouldn't only rely on one from 1995.

 Gert wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
That is a recent retcon. Originally Behemoth was eradicated.

5th Ed Marine and Nid Codexes changed that to shattered. Also, Old One Eye was Behemoth and there is a Genestealer Cult descended from Behemoth. Behemoth has been un-eradicated for quite some time.

Citation please?

The first bit is as above but for the latter I can't find exact citations.

Hive War has it simply that nothing happened...and the years of silence made it seem like that the Tyranids were done and the military forces could be redeployed elsewhere instead of just sitting there.

Personally, I would find more than one source for my stuff and certainly wouldn't only rely on one from 1995.

As I said, it is only a recent change if it was 5th edition that changed it.

Hive War is the definitive source for the Tyranids up until the most recent stuff. Much of the content of the Codices from previous editions was pretty much just regurgitation of Hive War in abbreviated form, with at most just some minor edits on detail, such as upscaling the garrison on Tyran. Even then when looking at the dates, there is the notable gap between Behemoth and Kraken. GW has been milking the info from Hive War ever since with things like the Trygon, Haruspex, and Exocrine reworkings.

I mean I don't consider 5th to be recent considering the Nid Codex is over a decade old.

Iracundus wrote:
Except they have a continuity error in the book. They talk about fighting against the Tyranids since 745.M41 and it is set 850.M41. Only problem is that Behemoth fought the Ultramarines in 745.M41, true, but then afterwards it is explicitly stated that everything died down until 992.M41 when Kraken appeared on the scene and showed that the Tyranid threat had not gone and that Behemoth was not just the sole fleet.

It's been years since I read it, could be referring to that segmentum rather than the Imperium as a whole.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
*waves expansively at the Octarius Sector*

Basically what you’re suggesting but on a ludicrous scale.

Exterminatus planets in the path of the Hive Fleet, leaving them nothing to eat. Use fleet action to force them toward Octarius.

Let them eat Ork, deal with the fallout later.

It’s….not going well.

This is what I was going to say too.

Who would have thought that giving the Tyranids a massive Ork buffet could have possibly ended badly?

Iracundus wrote:

 Gert wrote:
So just the usual then?

It's not an internet theory. It originated in a Black Library book as the in-character theory of an adept. However the internet runs with it as if it were proven true, which it has not been.

Indeed. Same goes the picture of the Hrud from the same book. They all conveniently leave off the text below it that reads "Speculative artist's impression of a Hrud, minus typical shroud. Taken from supposed eyewitness accounts."

"speculative" and "supposed" are quite important words in that sentence.

ISTR that the iron warriors have a nid ship under their control after infecting it with a version of the obliterator virus and turning it into a cybernetic ship they took over.

One Warband managed it and the Warsmith that did it ascended to Daemonhood, and his subordinates either died or in the case of Honsou, launched a failed invasion of Ultramar and now exists as a Warband of one.

You "could" count the Cain book where he discovers the AdMech being NaughtyMech in the desert with a live Bioform?

Do I recall that the Cogs had been able to subjugate the lesser forms by controlling the dominant form they had in the basement? Until they learned it had attracted a swarm.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
You "could" count the Cain book where he discovers the AdMech being NaughtyMech in the desert with a live Bioform?

Do I recall that the Cogs had been able to subjugate the lesser forms by controlling the dominant form they had in the basement? Until they learned it had attracted a swarm.

Hmmm, kinda like how cerberus was trying to control reaper husks in mass effect 3?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gert wrote:
One Warband managed it and the Warsmith that did it ascended to Daemonhood, and his subordinates either died or in the case of Honsou, launched a failed invasion of Ultramar and now exists as a Warband of one.

Sooo, a small group comes up with a potential game changer in the 40k universe, then all conveniently rise into the warp, die or become bitter losers no one will listen to.

It isn't really a game changer, they required a lot of setup to capture the hive ship and they only used it as an over glorified transport.

 Tyran wrote:
It isn't really a game changer, they required a lot of setup to capture the hive ship and they only used it as an over glorified transport.

OK, still it was a first step, and proved it was possible to overcome a nid bioform with a viral weapon.

viral... the obliterator virus isn't in so much just a virus. Its basically if you take the mutating effects of the Warp, combine it with an illness that reduces the carriers sanity and by extention lowers the only significant defense mechanism any carrier has, its will power.
it then proceeds to turn the carrier into a sort of Daemonkin with no specific allegiance, a separate form of parasitic daemonic entity so to speak concerned with obliteration.

IW also somehow have seemingly procured a special form of it, how that one functions is pretty much unknown.

Agentdenton wrote:
Sooo, a small group comes up with a potential game changer in the 40k universe, then all conveniently rise into the warp, die or become bitter losers no one will listen to.

Well, they weren't a small group, it was like 4 Grand Companies united under the leadership of the Warsmith. The actual "taming" of the Hive Ship was a huge undertaking that took finding a lone ship, purging it, using a butt load of Dark Mech Adepts and Warpsmiths to infect it with a strain of the Obliterator Virus, and then mostly praying it worked.
It's not a "game-changer" because it wouldn't work en-masse. It's far too much effort for hugely fragmented forces to manage.
The Hive Ship was a throwaway passage to show the power of that particular Warsmith.

Oh, I hadn't heard the whole story. Thanks.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
You "could" count the Cain book where he discovers the AdMech being NaughtyMech in the desert with a live Bioform?

Do I recall that the Cogs had been able to subjugate the lesser forms by controlling the dominant form they had in the basement? Until they learned it had attracted a swarm.

Not exactly. The plan boiled down to unleashing a chunk of hive ship brain, along with a few combat forms, and then staying out of the way as the competing hiveminds tore each other to pieces. Imperial forces were able to push the attack as the foreign hives disrupted their own signals. Ciaphas does make a comment lamenting on how difficult it would to replicate the experiment. So a bit of a dead end.

Deathwatch Shadowbreak Book.

The Tau alongside some very questionable Radical Ordo Xenos Inquisitors attempt to breed Tau/Genestealer hybrids under the ethos that Tau have little warp presence, so may not be connected to the hive mind if they make Tau Genestealers... Thus, weaponised gene stealers that can be planted on worlds but not draw in the hive mind (or something like that, my memory of the book is a bit sketchy now).

That sounds dumb, given that the brood relies on a psychic link to the Patriarch and brood mind to function effectively. the beacon to the hive fleets only happens later when some kind of critical mass is achieved.

Genestealers are designed to be able to operate on their own. That's why they are used as advanced shock troops. They can operate without the direct influence of the Hive Mind.

Of course they work better when able to link up into a local Hive Mind group and when linked to a Patriarch (which seems to be something any stealer can advance into). And they work best when connected to the Hive Mind directly.



I suspect the genetic experiments were hoping that the independent operation aspects would be preserved at a cost of the psychic links. Perhaps preserving enough to create a local grouping, but having none of the potency or power to create the critical mass calling effect. Which they'd need to curtail if they were going to use them in any great numbers.



In theory taming Tyranids can be done, the real issue is dealing with the potential for accidental escape or encounters with non-tamed Tyranids then creating a fresh connection to the Hive Mind.

Ergo your super elite group of fast breeding Genestealer Warriors could be fine in interior regions and heavy monitoring, but as soon as they make any kind of connection to the main Hive Mind - BOOM - instant uprising.

Sorry, one hard and fast thing for me is that one absolutely cannot tame Tyranids.

Each and every Tyranid beastie, from macrofauna to a Hive Ship is the equivalent of a neuron in the Hive Mind.

Yes lesser beasties need bigger beasties to maintain specific focus. But you cannot ever sever a Tyranid from the Hive Mind. Ergo one cannot domesticate or train them.

If you’re (incredibly un)”lucky”, you may end up with a strain which seems to be biddable. Just….know there’s a greater intelligence than your own looking back and figuring “well, this could be interesting. Let’s play along for now”.

To quote the Daleks?

I Am Your Servant

I think it would, in theory, be possible and seems to have been done a few times in lore kind of. The problem is the amount of work you have to put in to attain control is insane. Plus its a constant high risk that any encounter with even a small non-tamed Tyranid organism or group or fleet can instantly undo your work.

In theory you could gut the brains, but I suspect the bio-rejection rate or bio-corruption from the host body is pretty high. So, again, you've got weak control with a constant worry that its a when rather than if it turns on you.

If certain Tyranids without the synapse link become feral, then it suggests that making some kind of techno wingwang that could replace the link is technically possible. Just it probably won't work for long.

I think the 40k lore rightly requires naughty corporations trying to control Tyranids only for it to rapidly spiral out of control and thus they must eat gribbly humble pie.

One of the key foundational things about the Tyranids is that they adapt. Although there may be special poisons or psychic device gimmicks that allows victory in a Black Libary novel or specific campaign for the non-Tyranid protagonists, the key thing is that it is only for that time and is not a long term solution. It only works for that specific group or hive fleet as other Tyranid fleets are divergent enough genetically or adapt to render the method useless.

I think that the real limitation of any attempt to tame or control is a) the scale at which Tyranids operate and b) Hive Mind is simply not something you can replicate and c) the inherent limitations of trying to control something defined by its ability to adapt.

Sure you can take a nid, and surgically remove it from the the synaptic web and replace that with your own mind control device. You could do that to a few hundreds or maybe a few thousands or hell maybe a few millions. Even assuming it all goes right, a few millions nids are not a particularly impressive force. Hive Fleets routinely throw around trillions of bodies.

Moreover whatever control system you have set up simply cannot hope to replicate to the infinitely larger and older Hive Mind. You do not have access to the billions of years of bio-genetic and military knowledge the Hive Mind has accumulated nor the ability to resurrect slain leader beasts.

The very need to keep the swarm controlled also means you cannot allow it to evolve and adapt like a true Tyranid swarm does, and as adaptation is one of the main strengths of the Tyranids, that is a crippling weakness. That means you are limited to whatever Tyranids you were able to capture, unlike a Hive Fleet that is able to customize its creatures down to their building blocks.

So your weaponized swarm is both smaller, and inherently inferior to any true Tyranid swarm in every measure that matters. It is a lot of work and resources for very little payoff and you are just better investing in military forces you are not struggling to control and thus have to be crippled.

Plus many races already have genetic manipulation means. The Imperium can clone things and can tinker with the genetic code. Sure they can't get close to what the Tyranids can do, but they have forces like the Krieg which are fully cloned and if they wanted too they could produce far more loyal reliable troops that way and then arm them with equipment for different battle zones.

All above trying to manipulate genestealers or gaunts.



Honestly I would think controlling Tyranids would be more of an accident/side project developed whilst trying to discover weapons and means to disrupt their communication systems outside of shooting the synapse creatures or taking out the Hive Fleet ships in orbit.

Actually cloning is illegal in the Imperium and the Krieg use what are essentially industrial grade IVF labs possibly with some growth acceleration. They have the appearance of clones because they get given numbers rather than names.

 Olthannon wrote:
If certain Tyranids without the synapse link become feral, then it suggests that making some kind of techno wingwang that could replace the link is technically possible. Just it probably won't work for long.

I do wonder what might happen if you were to breed them in an environment where you were to cut them off from the Hive Mind - and even the Warp - with the use of Blanks.

 Olthannon wrote:
I think the 40k lore rightly requires naughty corporations trying to control Tyranids only for it to rapidly spiral out of control and thus they must eat gribbly humble pie.

In the grim darkness of the far future, the gribbly humble pie eats you...