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Bamberg / Erlangen

 Blackie wrote:
Hecaton wrote:


I advocate for its removal because I like Narrative Play too, and I'd rather it use points.


Unless you're an "official at all cost" zealot I don't see why you can't already do that. I mean it's narrative play, not competitive gaming. I don't believe you can't find players who refuse to play that kind of game by using points or other house rules. How hard is it to convert PL into points?

Official at all cost is for matched play and random pick up games, where a standard that is the same for everyone and everywhere is pretty much necessary to keep things easy between players.

When I organised a Crusade campaign last year we just converted 1 PL to be equal to 20 points. Worked out fine without any big adjustments.

   
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U.k

Why is so hard for those pushing for PL to be removed to understand that they have a different experience of the game form others. They aren’t right, they just like different things.

I can only put the attitudes in this thread from the likes of sgt bob and hecaton and their allies down to two things.

1. They are being deliberately ignorant to provoke a response. Basically bullying to make them selves feel good in some weird way.

2. They are absolute arseholes who don’t care about anyone but themselves and get their kicks from berating a terminally ill person online.

……wait, they’re the same thing. Guess that clears it up.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/12 11:47:01


 
   
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Hecaton wrote:
 Blndmage wrote:
So when I say that my group of 40k players would stop gaming if we switched to Matched Play, points updates, and the book treadmill, which they hate, why do you just casually dismiss my statement?


Because we don't believe you.
I think this says everything it needs to about this situation, and the absolute cesspit of discourse that this thread has been allowed to devolve into.

There isn't any respect here. There isn't any "discussion" to be had when users can just invalidate the life and experiences of other people here. And without that baseline level of respect, this thread literally cannot function without violating Rule 1.

I am genuinely surprised this dumpster fire is still *allowed* to carry on.

CadianSgtBob wrote:
 Blndmage wrote:
I shouldn't have to defend that every single time I talk about playing.


You don't. Let me once again remind you that you are in a thread explicitly for discussing normal points vs. PL that started with a premise of "what if GW removed one of the systems".
No, it isn't.

The thread asked if *points* should be scrapped. No-one agreed with that. Open and shut case.

It was only because of certain rhetoric from folks like you demanding that PL should be scrapped instead, and that if you actually like PL, "we don't believe you", that this became a case of points vs PL. You did this. Not the OP.
You can complain about this if you post a PL list in the list forum and get people demanding justification for your use of PL, but outside of that if you don't like defending your positions you're free to not participate in this clearly labeled discussion.
But it isn't, so quit trying to act like it is.

Clearly labelled discussion would:
A - be called "points vs PL"
B - require a baseline level of respect

Why do you keep invalidating the way we play the game when it's a perfectly valid version that takes nothing away from you?


Because GW wasting space declaring your games Official™ 40k™ Games™ adds nothing of value to anyone.
So BIndmage and I don't count as "anyone".

Cheers.


 TheBestBucketHead wrote:
I don't see why anyone would advocate for the removal of such a small part of the game that costs almost no development time and only benefits people, even if at just in a minor amount.


Because elegance is a game design principle and redundant rules should be removed.
What if I don't agree with that principle though.

Because needlessly dividing the game and community into different factions is bad.
Why?

Because the continued existence of PL is temptation for the CAAC faction at GW to try again to make it the default or even only system.
You don't have proof for this. You have only offered conjecture.

And because even a small amount of development time is a high price to pay for something that adds next to no value for even its most passionate defenders.
A high price to pay for who?


 Blndmage wrote:
Ok, well I guess I'll just stop trying to talk about the game on dakka then. Or anywhere.


Or, you know, don't post in a thread clearly labeled as a "what if GW removed one of the point systems" debate if you don't want to debate the removal of a point system.
They aren't. This thread isn't called that - this thread is ACTUALLY clearly labelled as "If GW actually went full in on PL would it actually change the ammount of 40k you play" - it doesn't mention anything about removing PL, and you'll find that essentially no-one in this thread has seriously suggested actually removing points.

You just couldn't resist turning it into a pissing contest.
Nobody is following you around everywhere and demanding justifications for your preferences in other threads when they aren't relevant to the topic.
Calling to scrap PL isn't relevant to the topic either.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Andykp wrote:
Why is so hard for those pushing for PL to be removed to understand that they have a different experience of the game form others. They aren’t right, they just like different things.
Because they're self-centred and arrogant, many of which are self-admitted gatekeepers, and genuinely believe that they know other people better than they know themselves.

That's not even an insult, that's just stating facts. And if any of the folks who do find that insulting, perhaps you should have considered that before you started invalidating users over half the thread ago. Live in glass houses, don't throw stones.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/12 13:15:12



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U.k

My comment was an insult but a deserved one based on the same facts smudge highlights in his.
   
Made in ca
Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Blndmage wrote:
I'd believe that the vast majority of 40k players use PL, either as Open, Crusade, or even PL based Matched Play. I'd also believe that the majority who play, probably play with a close, possibly small group. I'd also believe that very few of those players show up here on dakka.


Now im wrong on a lot of things, and many people here will agree with that, but i can, with 100% certainty, and confidence.
This majority does not exist at all, in any capacity or range what so ever. The Vast vast VAST majority of games are played with points, using matched rules, do those turn into smaller groups? yes
But they by no means are playing majority crusade PL, or open play at all.

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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
. . . and you'll find that essentially no-one in this thread has seriously suggested actually removing points.


OP, second sentence: "Would anyone actually have a marked decrease in play if 40k went full Power Levels and abandoned points entirely?"

It's the very start of the thread.

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 Blndmage wrote:
But why do you need to quibble about a 5 point upgrade in a 2k game? It's 0.25% of the list, even for Combat Patrol games, it's only 1%. Are they really worth the trouble balancing things down to 1 point differences? When you can just make all the stuff free and save the hassle.

If it's about the mechanics of specific weapons or what not, maybe they need a redesign if there's always 1 that's better.


2 reasons, one is I'm playing a 2000pt game not a 2005 point game. The other reason is by that logic, I can take any 5pt upgrade in my codex for free. For space marines that means I can take about 2500 points in a 2000pt game. If you think balance is bad when both players have 2k, wait til you see what happens when upgrades are totally free but some armies have almost no upgrades and others can pack in 500-700 free points. That's why PL is a bad system unless it's a newer player without a codex trying to get his models on the table quickly, which is what it was designed for.
   
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Toofast wrote:
 Blndmage wrote:
But why do you need to quibble about a 5 point upgrade in a 2k game? It's 0.25% of the list, even for Combat Patrol games, it's only 1%. Are they really worth the trouble balancing things down to 1 point differences? When you can just make all the stuff free and save the hassle.

If it's about the mechanics of specific weapons or what not, maybe they need a redesign if there's always 1 that's better.


2 reasons, one is I'm playing a 2000pt game not a 2005 point game. The other reason is by that logic, I can take any 5pt upgrade in my codex for free. For space marines that means I can take about 2500 points in a 2000pt game. If you think balance is bad when both players have 2k, wait til you see what happens when upgrades are totally free but some armies have almost no upgrades and others can pack in 500-700 free points. That's why PL is a bad system unless it's a newer player without a codex trying to get his models on the table quickly, which is what it was designed for.


And we are coming full circle back to the days of formations and literally 500+ points of free upgrades.

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Insectum7 wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
. . . and you'll find that essentially no-one in this thread has seriously suggested actually removing points.


OP, second sentence: "Would anyone actually have a marked decrease in play if 40k went full Power Levels and abandoned points entirely?"

It's the very start of the thread.
It's called a hypothetical question, ta. Did you miss where I wrote "seriously suggested"?


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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
. . . and you'll find that essentially no-one in this thread has seriously suggested actually removing points.


OP, second sentence: "Would anyone actually have a marked decrease in play if 40k went full Power Levels and abandoned points entirely?"

It's the very start of the thread.
It's called a hypothetical question, ta. Did you miss where I wrote "seriously suggested"?


What is any more serious then OP literally starting a thread suggesting getting rid of points.
Your question is not hypothetical because the OP LITERALLY suggested that.

Thats like a bank robber walking into a bank saying "Im robbing the bank put the money in the bag" Ok but no one is really suggesting to put the money in the bag its a hypothetical.

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 Backspacehacker wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
. . . and you'll find that essentially no-one in this thread has seriously suggested actually removing points.


OP, second sentence: "Would anyone actually have a marked decrease in play if 40k went full Power Levels and abandoned points entirely?"

It's the very start of the thread.
It's called a hypothetical question, ta. Did you miss where I wrote "seriously suggested"?


What is any more serious then OP literally starting a thread suggesting getting rid of points.
Your question is not hypothetical because the OP LITERALLY suggested that.
Suggesting? I think we have different ideas of what "suggesting" is, because I don't see a serious suggestion there. I see a hypothetical question, and asking for the results of *if* that hypothetical situation were to happen.

However, even IF that was a serious suggestion somehow, consider how NO-ONE, not even the most ardent pro-PL folks here, agreed with it. Notice how the ONLY people who have seriously advocated for removing anything at all once the initial hypothetical question was posed are people who want to get rid of PL.

Thats like a bank robber walking into a bank saying "Im robbing the bank put the money in the bag" Ok but no one is really suggesting to put the money in the bag its a hypothetical.
No, your example would be more like "if I was to come in here with a gun, would you all put money in the bag?"

It's predicated on the idea of "if" - not "should".
Hell, look at the quote which Insectum so kindly pointed out to me: "Would anyone actually have a marked decrease in play if 40k went full Power Levels and abandoned points entirely?"


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The OP’s question was hypothetical. It would be more like a person at a bank asking “would you call the SWAT team if I asked you to put money in the bag?”

Wow, ninja strike.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/12 15:25:59


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Toofast wrote:
 Blndmage wrote:
But why do you need to quibble about a 5 point upgrade in a 2k game? It's 0.25% of the list, even for Combat Patrol games, it's only 1%. Are they really worth the trouble balancing things down to 1 point differences? When you can just make all the stuff free and save the hassle.

If it's about the mechanics of specific weapons or what not, maybe they need a redesign if there's always 1 that's better.


2 reasons, one is I'm playing a 2000pt game not a 2005 point game. The other reason is by that logic, I can take any 5pt upgrade in my codex for free. For space marines that means I can take about 2500 points in a 2000pt game. If you think balance is bad when both players have 2k, wait til you see what happens when upgrades are totally free but some armies have almost no upgrades and others can pack in 500-700 free points. That's why PL is a bad system unless it's a newer player without a codex trying to get his models on the table quickly, which is what it was designed for.


To be fair in PL many units' cost already factor in some upgrades if not all of them, and in comparison they are typically much more expensive than what they cost in points. It's not like the PL cost of a unit is always equivalent to the bare bones cost of the same unit in points.

Example 1: the big mek in megarmour costs 6PL or 85 points plus up to 35 additional points of upgrades. Assuming 1PL = 20 points in PL the guy costs like the full kitted dude in points.

Example 2: the battlewagon costs 8PL or 105 points plus up to 80 additional points of upgrades. The PL model costs like a model with tons of upgrades, no one would take 160 points (not even counting the kustom job) battlewagons, typically the full kitted battlewagon costs 135 points plus eventully a kustom job (which also costs additional PL).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Backspacehacker wrote:


And we are coming full circle back to the days of formations and literally 500+ points of free upgrades.


No, if you use PL it's more likely "hundred of points" for useless upgrades or for upgrades I payed for but I haven't even actually taken.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/12 15:27:22


 
   
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 Backspacehacker wrote:


And we are coming full circle back to the days of formations and literally 500+ points of free upgrades.


Even better, people are suggesting GW combine everything people hated about 7th and free formations along with everything people hated about AoS on release. It's like they're taking a basket of every bad decision GW has ever made (not related to pricing) and expecting everyone to be thrilled if that were the only way to play. The only upside is you don't have to do simple addition to 2000 with the help of multiple apps that just do it for you...
   
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 Gordon Shumway wrote:
The OP’s question was hypothetical. It would be more like a person at a bank asking “would you call the SWAT team if I asked you to put money in the bag?”

Wow, ninja strike.
and again:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, again, is there really any value in GW not going PL only?


"Vy don't ve abandon of all ze jews?"
"Iz zer any value in not going arian only?"
"Hey I'm just asking ze qvestions!, vy iz everybody zo upset?"

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

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Toofast wrote:
It's like they're taking a basket of every bad decision GW has ever made (not related to pricing) and expecting everyone to be thrilled if that were the only way to play.
I'm not sure anyone's advocating for that. No-one wants PL to be the only way to play.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Insectum7 wrote:
"Vy don't ve abandon of all ze jews?"
"Iz zer any value in not going arian only?"
"Hey I'm just asking ze qvestions!, vy iz everybody zo upset?"
As I already pointed out to you, you're comparing asking questions about a points system in a toy soldier game to... genociding the Jews (and by extension, members of the LGBTQ+ community, the disabled, and those of a different political opinion)?
You don't think for a second that maybe you're overreacting just a tad here?

I'm not exactly sure you're arguing here in good faith. Do all hypothetical questions get this rise from you?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/12 16:02:32



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Silly analogies aside, we do in fact have people in here actually suggesting the removal of points.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/12 16:17:39


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 Backspacehacker wrote:
Silly analogies aside, we do in face have people in here actually suggesting the removal of points.
Such as? When I last checked, the only time that anything close to a serious suggestion was made was from Fezzik, and even then, I both highlighted how it was both likely hypothetical, and had come after PAGES of people advocating for PL to be scrapped (which isn't anything to do with the topic).

But if you can link to such comments, and that those comments have been sustained by the user, and that said comments are justifiably "sincere" in their stance, sure, I'd love to see them.


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"We do have people in fact making suggestions to remove points"
"Last i check the only time that anything came close to a serious suggestion was Fezzik."

Well there you go, you answered your own question.

We do have people in here suggesting it. It might only be one, but it is someone suggesting it.
Im not gonna link it because they have been linked above already multiple time. Linking it again for you to ignore it wont change anything.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/12 16:19:22


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Silly analogies aside, we actually do have have people here arguing for a removal of PL.

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 Blndmage wrote:
CadianSgtBob wrote:
 Blndmage wrote:
Then push GW to actually review PL costs the way we do with broken units and point costs. They don't know there an issue unless they hear about it.

That way, they get adjust as needed to balance with points, and the rest of us can keep playing how we enjoy. There's no need to remove anything.


PL has inherent systemic problems that can not be fixed by reviewing individual costs. The system is inaccurate by design and can never be correct, the only way it can be fixed is for it to be removed.


I could say the same about points, considering that PL is a core part of the game system (thank you for reminding me), and points is actually the added tally system, shouldn't it be the one that would be removed?

Considering the constant time spent adjusting things, at times in 1 point increments when just adjusting the PL would be easier and fit with the rest of the game as points are the odd one out now. We used PL in 8th too, but I played much less as the bigger board size was a real impediment.

You said you were a game designer, but this post puts that claim entirely up to speculation. PL has the obvious problems of Formations like Battle Demi-Company and War Convocation but you still defend it anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Andykp wrote:
Why is so hard for those pushing for PL to be removed to understand that they have a different experience of the game form others. They aren’t right, they just like different things.

People like garbage all the time. I'd rather keep the garbage out of the game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/12 16:23:32


 
   
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 Backspacehacker wrote:
"We do have people in fact making suggestions to remove points"
"Last i check the only time that anything came close to a serious suggestion was Fezzik."

Well there you go, you answered your own question.
That's the OP, my guy. I don't think it's exactly fair to point to the OP and count them in this situation. I thought you were talking about other users, and more importantly, plural.

We do have people in here suggesting it. It might only be one, but it is someone suggesting it.
One person isn't "people". You said "people" - that implies multiple. Show me multiple people, including at least just ONE who isn't the OP, and we'll be serious about this.
Im not gonna link it because they have been linked above already multiple time. Linking it again for you to ignore it wont change anything.
Ironically, I've already gone back and linked the countless other cases up to page 17 of users on *both* ends calling for various systems to be banned - on the PL "side", only one comment, from Fezzik, which no-one endorsed, could be considered *close* to advocating actually removing points.


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Toofast wrote:
 Blndmage wrote:
But why do you need to quibble about a 5 point upgrade in a 2k game? It's 0.25% of the list, even for Combat Patrol games, it's only 1%. Are they really worth the trouble balancing things down to 1 point differences? When you can just make all the stuff free and save the hassle.

If it's about the mechanics of specific weapons or what not, maybe they need a redesign if there's always 1 that's better.


2 reasons, one is I'm playing a 2000pt game not a 2005 point game. The other reason is by that logic, I can take any 5pt upgrade in my codex for free. For space marines that means I can take about 2500 points in a 2000pt game. If you think balance is bad when both players have 2k, wait til you see what happens when upgrades are totally free but some armies have almost no upgrades and others can pack in 500-700 free points. That's why PL is a bad system unless it's a newer player without a codex trying to get his models on the table quickly, which is what it was designed for.

Seriously, with these people defending PL and saying at the same time they've been playing the game for years, you'd think they'd remember all the bad decisions GW has made with game design decisions.

Apparently they don't because I can easily argue how fluffy players won't abuse Battle Demi-Company and that they miss the spirit of the game LOL
   
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EviscerationPlague wrote:
 Blndmage wrote:
CadianSgtBob wrote:
 Blndmage wrote:
Then push GW to actually review PL costs the way we do with broken units and point costs. They don't know there an issue unless they hear about it.

That way, they get adjust as needed to balance with points, and the rest of us can keep playing how we enjoy. There's no need to remove anything.


PL has inherent systemic problems that can not be fixed by reviewing individual costs. The system is inaccurate by design and can never be correct, the only way it can be fixed is for it to be removed.


I could say the same about points, considering that PL is a core part of the game system (thank you for reminding me), and points is actually the added tally system, shouldn't it be the one that would be removed?

Considering the constant time spent adjusting things, at times in 1 point increments when just adjusting the PL would be easier and fit with the rest of the game as points are the odd one out now. We used PL in 8th too, but I played much less as the bigger board size was a real impediment.

You said you were a game designer, but this post puts that claim entirely up to speculation. PL has the obvious problems of Formations like Battle Demi-Company and War Convocation but you still defend it anyway.
This BS again?

War Convocation and the **GLADIUS** (not the demi-company, get your comparisons right, if you're going to make them) were a problem because unless you declined to play at all, you always ran the risk of your OPPONENT taking them. You couldn't stop your opponent doing gak, short of talking with them, or just not playing with them.

With PL, you can still play points and it literally won't affect you. How many times do I have to drill this into you?


Andykp wrote:
Why is so hard for those pushing for PL to be removed to understand that they have a different experience of the game form others. They aren’t right, they just like different things.
People like garbage all the time. I'd rather keep the garbage out of the game.
Great. Leave then.

(Again - you've levelled far worse comments at folks. Glass houses, meet stones. I'm tired of pretending that you're discussing this in good faith.)


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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 Backspacehacker wrote:
"We do have people in fact making suggestions to remove points"
"Last i check the only time that anything came close to a serious suggestion was Fezzik."

Well there you go, you answered your own question.
That's the OP, my guy. I don't think it's exactly fair to point to the OP and count them in this situation. I thought you were talking about other users, and more importantly, plural.

We do have people in here suggesting it. It might only be one, but it is someone suggesting it.
One person isn't "people". You said "people" - that implies multiple. Show me multiple people, including at least just ONE who isn't the OP, and we'll be serious about this.
Im not gonna link it because they have been linked above already multiple time. Linking it again for you to ignore it wont change anything.
Ironically, I've already gone back and linked the countless other cases up to page 17 of users on *both* ends calling for various systems to be banned - on the PL "side", only one comment, from Fezzik, which no-one endorsed, could be considered *close* to advocating actually removing points.


Being right is not about being fair, you cant just go "well ignore that one"
You asked if anyone was suggesting to remove points the answer to that is yes, the OP is suggesting it.

You dont get to go "Well people is not one person" just because literally what you asked was proven.
"Are there people in this thread suggestion to remove points" Yes there are, you can choose to accept that because its in the OP or you can just ignore it and play word Olympics to fit your definition.



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EviscerationPlague wrote:
Seriously, with these people defending PL and saying at the same time they've been playing the game for years, you'd think they'd remember all the bad decisions GW has made with game design decisions.
Yeah, all their bad decisions using the points system - but you don't see me calling to remove points.

Apparently they don't because I can easily argue how fluffy players won't abuse Battle Demi-Company and that they miss the spirit of the game LOL
Remind me what the Gladius has to do with this?


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In My Lab

Okay, one singular person advocated for the removal of points. And the remainder of people who support keeping PL have said "We don't agree with Fezzik, points should stay in addition to PL."
How many have advocated for the removal of PL?

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 Backspacehacker wrote:
Being right is not about being fair, you cant just go "well ignore that one"
You asked if anyone was suggesting to remove points the answer to that is yes, the OP is suggesting it.
No, the OP posed a hypothetical question. They didn't *suggest* anything in their OP.

Additionally, the OP of a thread, as the one to *start* the conversation, shouldn't be considered the benchmark of the actual discourse made.

You dont get to go "Well people is not one person" just because literally what you asked was proven.
You claimed "people". One person is not a "people".
"Are there people in this thread suggestion to remove points" Yes there are, you can choose to accept that because its in the OP or you can just ignore it and play word Olympics to fit your definition.
The OP asking a hypothetical question, and loudly being proven wrong by people *on both sides* should give enough of an answer that it should be obvious that there's a bit of a difference between "if we got rid of points" and "get PL out of the game, who cares if you like it".

Let's not make false equivalences here. If the only example you can give to anything *close* (which is what I actually said) to advocating the removal of points is the hypothetical question from the OP, that's incredibly tame compared to the other comments given by the PL-removal-brigade.


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 JNAProductions wrote:
Okay, one singular person advocated for the removal of points. And the remainder of people who support keeping PL have said "We don't agree with Fezzik, points should stay in addition to PL."
How many have advocated for the removal of PL?


Im not sure but either way the question of if anyone is suggesting to remove points is yes there are people here suggesting that, it might only be one, but its still someone here suggesting it.
So technical yes, its being suggested, and technically right is the best kinda right.

If others wanna argue over the technicality of how many people are people they can argue to their hearts content at this point.

People who suggest to remove PL, be it many or singular are equally ridiculous in that suggestion. There is no real good reason to remove PL, just as there is no real good reason to remove points.
Both suggestions are ridiculous.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/12 16:34:08


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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
"Vy don't ve abandon of all ze jews?"
"Iz zer any value in not going arian only?"
"Hey I'm just asking ze qvestions!, vy iz everybody zo upset?"
As I already pointed out to you, you're comparing asking questions about a points system in a toy soldier game to... genociding the Jews (and by extension, members of the LGBTQ+ community, the disabled, and those of a different political opinion)?
You don't think for a second that maybe you're overreacting just a tad here?

I'm not exactly sure you're arguing here in good faith. Do all hypothetical questions get this rise from you?

No "rise" involved. The subject is different but the form is exactly the same.

Everyone is free to ask any questions they desire, but then they have to bear responsibility for the discussion that follows. The very premise of the thread involves the removal of points. Any suggestion otherwise is false.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
 
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