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Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

The_Real_Chris wrote:
A wider fantasy point is it went from being the main seller, to be eclipsed by 40k. Did that mean the company tried to make it more like 40k? Tried to recapture the earlier popularity? I do wonder what the strategy was.


Clearly the original plan for AoS was to make it more like 40K. From changing the way the game worked mechanically through to introducing a new Spacem...Stormcast army which share similar design elements to Marines. It's a solid strategy, you take one game that's failing and copy working elements from the one that is working.

What then happened was managers. AoS it seems started out as a solid normal project and then got cut to bits. Shifting steadily from a game to a boutique model line that had some joke rules, but ultimately was designed more to sell models and nothing more. Armies were removed, some that remained got shattered into multiple sub-groups and several new smaller armies were introduced. The Grand Alliance System was clearly an aim to have 4 casual armies (factions) in the game and then each of them being made up of smaller armies. With GW then able to add and remove factions as they want. Creating an epic setting with almost no lore grounding (it took ages to get any maps and we still don't have an effective dating system) and almost total freedom meant that GW could create whatever the heck they wanted and put it in for a bit.


Basically they took a wargame and tried ot turn it into a boutique model line. Which undermind all the attempts to take the working parts of 40K into fantasy.
It happened because we had managers and a management team who weren't doing community surveys; because they were detached from their customers and likely because all they were looking at was raw sales data. Raw data which suggested "more people buy models than play" and "the best time to sell models is when they are new". So with that kind of information it makes sense that they'd aim to create a system that basically just cycles new models all the time.



And we all know how well that plan worked

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CadianSgtBob wrote:
 flamingkillamajig wrote:
By what you say 7th ed 40k means 40k needed to be killed off rather than fixed massively.


WHFB's issues were inherent to the concept of WHFB and the sales numbers were pretty much dead by that point. That's not something you can fix with a few adjustments here and there.


I don't believe this really. WHFB had issues, sure, but I get the impression a big part of the reason for its failure was due to the complete lack of attention they were giving it, there was nothing inherent about the setting itself that meant it had to be completely destroyed even if the game wasn't doing well. The polularity of the WHFB video games and the fact that they're bringing back some version of the setting and game with The Old World project shows it didn't "Need" to happen in a way that got rid of it all. If they had given it the same attention as they do to their games these days then I expect it would have been even more popular than AoS.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/02 22:02:19


 
   
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Cadia

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
I don't believe this really. WHFB had issues, sure, but I get the impression a big part of the reason for its failure was due to the complete lack of attention they were giving it, there was nothing inherent about the setting itself that meant it had to be completely destroyed even if the game wasn't doing well. The polularity of the WHFB video games and the fact that they're bringing back some version of the setting and game with The Old World project shows it didn't "Need" to happen in a way that got rid of it all. If they had given it the same attention as they do to their games these days then I expect it would have been even more popular than AoS.


The setting was fine. The concept of a rank and file infantry block game sold at GW prices was not. I mentioned in my first post on the WHFB topic that GW made a significant error by blowing up the entire setting instead of making a new game in the existing WHFB setting.

THE PLANET BROKE BEFORE THE GUARD! 
   
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 Mentlegen324 wrote:
CadianSgtBob wrote:
 flamingkillamajig wrote:
By what you say 7th ed 40k means 40k needed to be killed off rather than fixed massively.


WHFB's issues were inherent to the concept of WHFB and the sales numbers were pretty much dead by that point. That's not something you can fix with a few adjustments here and there.


I don't believe this really. WHFB had issues, sure, but I get the impression a big part of the reason for its failure was due to the complete lack of attention they were giving it, there was nothing inherent about the setting itself that meant it had to be completely destroyed even if the game wasn't doing well. The polularity of the WHFB video games and the fact that they're bringing back some version of the setting and game with The Old World project shows it didn't "Need" to happen in a way that got rid of it all. If they had given it the same attention as they do to their games these days then I expect it would have been even more popular than AoS.


That's not correct. During 8th it had a significant amount of attention. Only 3 books were not updated, Brettonia, Beasts and Skaven. There were at least 3 supplements too, Storm of Magic, Blood on the Badlands and i'm certain there was at least one more. So there's definitely no lack of attention.
   
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CadianSgtBob wrote:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
I don't believe this really. WHFB had issues, sure, but I get the impression a big part of the reason for its failure was due to the complete lack of attention they were giving it, there was nothing inherent about the setting itself that meant it had to be completely destroyed even if the game wasn't doing well. The polularity of the WHFB video games and the fact that they're bringing back some version of the setting and game with The Old World project shows it didn't "Need" to happen in a way that got rid of it all. If they had given it the same attention as they do to their games these days then I expect it would have been even more popular than AoS.


The setting was fine. The concept of a rank and file infantry block game sold at GW prices was not. I mentioned in my first post on the WHFB topic that GW made a significant error by blowing up the entire setting instead of making a new game in the existing WHFB setting.


...but we're getting a rank and file infantry block game set in the WHFB setting that'll be sold at GW prices again with The Old World?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/02 22:48:09


 
   
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Cadia

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
...but we're getting a rank and file infantry block game set in the WHFB setting that'll be sold at GW prices again with The Old World


But not as a primary game. The Old World will be a side game like Aeronautica Imperialis where it doesn't really matter if it sells poorly compared to 40k and AoS. And based on the long delay between GW announcing the new game and actually having a finished product it's very clear that development of it is a low priority at best.

THE PLANET BROKE BEFORE THE GUARD! 
   
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And yet Tyranids and Orks in 40K are using rank and file numbers. AoS runs well on rank and file numbers too - granted 3rd edition has messed with this a lot; but 2.0 (where it grew) had a lot of big infantry blocks which were very much 30 models to a block or more in a few cases.

This issue isn't a rank and file game at GW prices; the issue was multiple. The price and numbers was more because the Old World game just didn't really work well until you hit at least 1K points and ideally 1.5K. Couple that to a dwindling fanbase so the few people who were playing were at the 2K level not beginners getting started and bumbling their way along to 2K.

The lack of a really engaging smaller point level game that worked and was fun; the lack of an active amount of GW marketing and interest and thus a healthy influx of new customers and more - these all conspired together to cause problems.

Old World wasn't just 1 error, it was multiple that steadily added up. On their own most of them were fairly minor or surmountable; the issue was all of them at once and the fact that the game steadily went from growing to dwindling customers/fans. Cause once that starts that in itself becomes and issue

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Cadia

 Overread wrote:
The lack of a really engaging smaller point level game that worked and was fun; the lack of an active amount of GW marketing and interest and thus a healthy influx of new customers and more - these all conspired together to cause problems.


That lack is a direct result of the rank and file problem. Yeah, 40k has horde armies but even with those horde armies you can start at a smaller point level and build up from there. With a rank and file game there's a minimum point level to get proper infantry blocks on the table. And there's a lot less room for creativity to keep people engaged as they build up to a full army. With a skirmish-style game like 40k or AoS your models stand on their own and you can customize them as much as you like. With a rank and file game you're slogging through a bunch of effectively identical models that will barely be seen in the middle of the block and have severe limits on customization because they need to fit neatly into the movement tray.

And you can say all you like that it shouldn't be a problem but the reality is that it was a common complaint I heard back then from people who decided not to pick up WHFB.

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CadianSgtBob wrote:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
...but we're getting a rank and file infantry block game set in the WHFB setting that'll be sold at GW prices again with The Old World


But not as a primary game. The Old World will be a side game like Aeronautica Imperialis where it doesn't really matter if it sells poorly compared to 40k and AoS. And based on the long delay between GW announcing the new game and actually having a finished product it's very clear that development of it is a low priority at best.


They're developing a new version of the setting and an entire game. It's only been close to 3 years since it was announced, and it apparently takes them 2-3 years between design and release for a standard new model so I don't see where this "long delay" between announcement and release is.

I don't think it's actually been said it's a side game like Aeronautica? I'd assume it'll be at least as much attention as the Horus Heresy they just announced/released rather than the smaller specialist games.
   
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Cadia

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
They're developing a new version of the setting and an entire game. It's only been close to 3 years since it was announced, and it apparently takes them 2-3 years between design and release for a standard new model so I don't see where this "long delay" between announcement and release is.


Remember, the point of the game is to give people WHFB back. GW will certainly make some new kits but they've already got the entire existing WHFB range. They don't need a bunch of new kits to make the game work. And it certainly doesn't take 2-3 years to make a rule update to WHFB if they're prioritizing it like a real game. The fact that we've seen nothing but very superficial "here's a picture of a map" updates so far is pretty strong evidence that they aren't putting a high priority on getting the new game out. My guess would be that it's being treated as a side project to fill in time between major 40k/AoS projects, probably because there was a situation like the original 30k game where a single person wanted to pursue it as a passion project.

I don't think it's actually been said it's a side game like Aeronautica? I'd assume it'll be at least as much attention as the Horus Heresy they just announced/released rather than the smaller specialist games.


It hasn't been said explicitly, it's just been strongly implied by the way GW is treating it. And it makes sense from a business point of view. GW doesn't want to cannibalize their own product lines and any secondary game needs to justify its development resources with additional sales, not just taking customers from another game. 30k does this well because it's fully compatible with 40k and just like with past 30k releases GW knows a bunch of 40k marine players are going to buy kits for their 40k armies. WHFB, on the other hand, isn't compatible with AoS. It's using square bases and the old WHFB lines have a completely different aesthetic from AoS so you're not going to get people buying stuff for their AoS armies. And does GW really have the market to sustain three separate fantasy games?

THE PLANET BROKE BEFORE THE GUARD! 
   
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 kodos wrote:
 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Was Kirby behind Primaris?

Rumours say ( and the fact that models are 3-4 years in development, so everything up until 2018 was "his"), say the plan for 40k was similar to what happend for AoS
new upgraded poster-boy model line replacing the old ones, more large centerpiece models, reduced rules to a minimum, people being able to put their collections on the table and only narritive updates to advance the plot

but because AoS failed hard, this was changed and not done as originally planned (but still done, just not as "strict")



I'm guessing this is where power level came from. It was supposed to be THE way to play and replace points but people started burning their armies on Youtube when AoS came out without points so they decided to make it optional/casual rather than the only way to play.
   
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CadianSgtBob wrote:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
They're developing a new version of the setting and an entire game. It's only been close to 3 years since it was announced, and it apparently takes them 2-3 years between design and release for a standard new model so I don't see where this "long delay" between announcement and release is.


The fact that we've seen nothing but very superficial "here's a picture of a map" updates so far is pretty strong evidence that they aren't putting a high priority on getting the new game out. My guess would be that it's being treated as a side project to fill in time between major 40k/AoS projects, probably because there was a situation like the original 30k game where a single person wanted to pursue it as a passion project.


They've also designed two entirely new faction in Cathay and Kislev. Possibly Vampire Coast as well. Creative Assembly aren't able to put anything into Total War: Warhammer unless it existed in the game prior to The End Times without GWs say so and we know that the GW designers have been working with CA on designing these new factions. We also know that Kislev will be a full faction for The Old World when it releases so it's not unreasonably to think that Cathay and Vampire Coast will get a model line at some point.


 
   
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Cadia

 Sim-Life wrote:
They've also designed two entirely new faction in Cathay and Kislev.


You mean rebooted two existing factions from older editions. And there's no reason the launch of the game as a whole would need to be held up for those factions to get new models, GW could easily launch the rules with the old WHFB miniatures now and then use the new factions to build hype for a second wave.

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Regarding you can’t play WHFB at small point levels; there is nothing in the mechanics of the game that means you can’t, just the same as AoS. People may have not done that, but it was playable with a handful of small units (at least in terms of rules mechanics).

AoS was balanced at 2,000 points and playing at less than that didn’t work very well, as I found out many times before I gave up on it. The idea that you and a pal could pick up a start collecting box each and have fun games with AoS was hogwash, as my poor greenskins discovered whenever they played a game!
   
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Luke82 wrote:
there is nothing in the mechanics of the game that means you can’t


There absolutely is: the need to have large blocks of rank and file infantry. You need to fill those 30-man blocks to have units function properly, and you need to have enough total points that you have a reasonable number of units on the table once you do. A game of 40k or AoS with 30 models is a game, a game of WHFB with 30 models is a farce where each player has one unit and the only thing you can do is meet in the middle of the table and roll dice to see who wins.

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Second Story Man





Austria

no, you don't need to use large blocks
a game of 30 models is a game, depending on the army, in all 3 of them, as just because Marines, Stomcast and Chaos Warriors can do it, does not mean all other factions can
and picking the elite forces for AoS and 40k, while ignoring the others, and pick the mass-factions for Warhammer Fantasy, while ignoring the elite ones, to support the argument is just stupid

and than none of those games work well at 500 points anyway, neither AoS, 40k, or WHFB, but you can play all of them at that size

the need for the large blocks in 8th Edition Fantasy came from other units doing a stupid amount of damage
on lower points you cannot take those monsters and wizards, so you don't need to bring in large units to counter them

there was a reason tournament players changed from 2000 points to 2500 with 8th, because you could not field those Monsters and Heroes into 2k either and still have an army around them
some people even wanted tournaments to change to 3000 points so they could bring all of the strong units they army offered (yep WAAC players that liked GW power creep and did not mind the cost were always a thing)

yes, 8th Edition rules were made to sell more models with a higher price, it was not aimed to bring new people in but milk those that are still playing (same for the price change with Lord of the Rings, GW did not expect many new people so doubled the prices and added rules for larger games to get more money from those that do)
so the rules were made to make those that already have a 2k army to buy more models

yet there rules were fine to be played with 750/1500/2000 points, no big problems (and comps were a thing for Fantasy anyway, so restriction on some of the stuff that was a problem was there anyway)

for the same reason some people claim that 40k is impossible to be played below 1500 points (you cannot bring Knights in a 750 point game) or AoS (no Mega Gargants in 500 point games, so 2000 is a must)

with 8th Edition Warhammer was already dead, it was killed by GW with those core rules, it just took them a while for the funeral and most people got this and left as the first army book released showed which direction the game was going

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Cadia

 kodos wrote:
and picking the elite forces for AoS and 40k, while ignoring the others


I ignored nothing. I play guard, a textbook horde army, and a 500 point list for me is ~25 infantry and a couple of tanks.

and than none of those games work well at 500 points anyway, neither AoS, 40k, or WHFB, but you can play all of them at that size


40k doesn't work well at 500 points for balance reasons (unless people agree to take starter box style armies and not try to break it). WHFB doesn't work well at 500 points because you have 1-2 units per player. These are two very different things.

the need for the large blocks in 8th Edition Fantasy came from other units doing a stupid amount of damage


And rank bonuses in combat. And having enough models left after casualty removal to get to do anything. 20-30 model blocks were the minimum in WHFB for a long time, not just a problem of 8th.

and comps were a thing for Fantasy anyway


Yet another example of WHFB being a fundamentally broken game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/03 09:24:38


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CadianSgtBob wrote:
Luke82 wrote:
there is nothing in the mechanics of the game that means you can’t


There absolutely is: the need to have large blocks of rank and file infantry. You need to fill those 30-man blocks to have units function properly, and you need to have enough total points that you have a reasonable number of units on the table once you do. A game of 40k or AoS with 30 models is a game, a game of WHFB with 30 models is a farce where each player has one unit and the only thing you can do is meet in the middle of the table and roll dice to see who wins.


No where in the WHFB rules does it say “minimum unit size is 30 models” so this is just incorrect. It will say “a minimum rank is x” and the army books will give minimum unit size, same as AoS does.
   
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Cadia

Luke82 wrote:
No where in the WHFB rules does it say “minimum unit size is 30 models” so this is just incorrect. It will say “a minimum rank is x” and the army books will give minimum unit size, same as AoS does.


And for all practical purposes you need more than the minimum to have your units function correctly.

I'm really not sure why this is a controversial claim given the fact that people at the time were citing "requires too many models" as a reason for not playing WHFB. Every time I looked into playing the game I very quickly decided it wasn't worth the investment because even a basic starter army was just too many models. And I was not even close to the only person saying it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/03 09:52:31


THE PLANET BROKE BEFORE THE GUARD! 
   
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CadianSgtBob wrote:
Luke82 wrote:
No where in the WHFB rules does it say “minimum unit size is 30 models” so this is just incorrect. It will say “a minimum rank is x” and the army books will give minimum unit size, same as AoS does.


And for all practical purposes you need more than the minimum to have your units function correctly.

I'm really not sure why this is a controversial claim given the fact that people at the time were citing "requires too many models" as a reason for not playing WHFB. Every time I looked into playing the game I very quickly decided it wasn't worth the investment because even a basic starter army was just too many models. And I was not even close to the only person saying it.


It seems like you’re stacking the odds in your favour a bit here. You concede that 40k (and presumably AoS?) work at 500 if both people are refraining from trying to break the game, but don’t extend the same courtesy to WHFB? Nothing would stop an AoS player from putting his 500 points into a giant Death Star unit of Ogres, just like a WHFB player could run multiple 10 man units of empire swordsmen. Obviously there is an efficient way to play all these games, but nothing in the rules for any of them stipulates a minimum size before which the mechanics cease to function.

Your argument that 30 man blocks is needed for WHFB presumes that the 10 man blocks are running into 30-40 man blobs all the time, this wouldn’t be the case if both people are restricted by points? It also ignores the MSU tactics some armies could work pretty well with. I do wonder what you suggest would happen if 10 AoS chumps ran into a unit of 30 enemies, if you think the outcome would be any different than the example you give for WHFB?

I’ve played small games of AoS, they were terrible. The mechanics worked for sure, but the balance was appalling. So I am always dubious of the claim that AoS was so much better than WHFB because you could play at any points level.

For what it’s worth, my beastman army in WHFB is worth more points than in AoS so I really don’t see how AoS fixed the ‘too many models’ problem (which was definitely a thing but it remains a thing with GW in general, not just WHFB).
   
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CadianSgtBob wrote:
 kodos wrote:
and picking the elite forces for AoS and 40k, while ignoring the others

I ignored nothing. I play guard, a textbook horde army, and a 500 point list for me is ~25 infantry and a couple of tanks.

and I can take Skaven, a textbook horde army, with 20 infantry and a couple of Monsters, not a problem

CadianSgtBob wrote:
Yet another example of WHFB being a fundamentally broken game.
as is AoS and 40k, as comps exits for them as well

CadianSgtBob wrote:
Luke82 wrote:
No where in the WHFB rules does it say “minimum unit size is 30 models” so this is just incorrect. It will say “a minimum rank is x” and the army books will give minimum unit size, same as AoS does.


And for all practical purposes you need more than the minimum to have your units function correctly..

and were is this different to 40k and AoS?
so in 40k and AoS, you just take the minimum model count of each unit and have a viable list that will have a good chance to win games?

I have the feeling you play a different 40k/AoS, or never played 500 point games in any of them

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/03 10:24:39


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CadianSgtBob wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
They've also designed two entirely new faction in Cathay and Kislev.


You mean rebooted two existing factions from older editions. And there's no reason the launch of the game as a whole would need to be held up for those factions to get new models, GW could easily launch the rules with the old WHFB miniatures now and then use the new factions to build hype for a second wave.


Are you new to GW or something? Cathay has never existed as a faction in WHFB and Kislev has only ever had a few supplemental units to use in an Empire army that quickly went OOP. Also you expect GW to (re)launch a new game line with no new big expensive models to show off? No big expensive limited released starter box full of new models, some of which are exclusive to the starter set? Are you confusing GW with a different mini company?


 
   
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I don't think Cathay even had a line for Warmaster, though Araby did.

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...

tneva82 wrote:
You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something... 
   
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CadianSgtBob wrote:
 Mentlegen324 wrote:
They're developing a new version of the setting and an entire game. It's only been close to 3 years since it was announced, and it apparently takes them 2-3 years between design and release for a standard new model so I don't see where this "long delay" between announcement and release is.


Remember, the point of the game is to give people WHFB back. GW will certainly make some new kits but they've already got the entire existing WHFB range. They don't need a bunch of new kits to make the game work. And it certainly doesn't take 2-3 years to make a rule update to WHFB if they're prioritizing it like a real game. The fact that we've seen nothing but very superficial "here's a picture of a map" updates so far is pretty strong evidence that they aren't putting a high priority on getting the new game out. My guess would be that it's being treated as a side project to fill in time between major 40k/AoS projects, probably because there was a situation like the original 30k game where a single person wanted to pursue it as a passion project.

I don't think it's actually been said it's a side game like Aeronautica? I'd assume it'll be at least as much attention as the Horus Heresy they just announced/released rather than the smaller specialist games.


It hasn't been said explicitly, it's just been strongly implied by the way GW is treating it. And it makes sense from a business point of view. GW doesn't want to cannibalize their own product lines and any secondary game needs to justify its development resources with additional sales, not just taking customers from another game. 30k does this well because it's fully compatible with 40k and just like with past 30k releases GW knows a bunch of 40k marine players are going to buy kits for their 40k armies. WHFB, on the other hand, isn't compatible with AoS. It's using square bases and the old WHFB lines have a completely different aesthetic from AoS so you're not going to get people buying stuff for their AoS armies. And does GW really have the market to sustain three separate fantasy games?


They announced the game pretty much the moment it was announced and said it would be years away, that involves a different and mostly unexplored version of the WHFB setting, that they've said will be a return to the Rank-and-File gameplay with square bares, that is a big enough project for them to choose to make what is practically an entirely new army of Kislev and also work on Cathay, an even more unexplored part of the setting....and you think it'll effectively be just a rules update along the lines of going from 8th to 9th edition, that they won't really make new models for (despite them designing entire new armies), and therefore it's taking too long even though the release timeframe for just a basic model is 2-3 years let alone a full game, and think that it's just a stopgap passion project basically no one wanted to do? That's utterly absurd.

As for thing with their other products....just what are you on about? 30k isn't "fully compatible" with 40k, there are plenty of things limited to just that that you can't swap over, but it's even more baffling that you're claimnig that WHFB models aren't comparable and think there's "completely different aesthetic" when a significant chunk of the AoS range is still made up of WHFB models.
   
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 Mentlegen324 wrote:
As for thing with their other products....just what are you on about? 30k isn't "fully compatible" with 40k, there are plenty of things limited to just that that you can't swap over, but it's even more baffling that you're claimnig that WHFB models aren't comparable and think there's "completely different aesthetic" when a significant chunk of the AoS range is still made up of WHFB models.

This is definitely veering into "tell me you don't know what you're talking about without telling me you don't know what you're talking about" territory...

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...

tneva82 wrote:
You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something... 
   
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UK

CadianSgtBob wrote:
 Overread wrote:
The lack of a really engaging smaller point level game that worked and was fun; the lack of an active amount of GW marketing and interest and thus a healthy influx of new customers and more - these all conspired together to cause problems.


That lack is a direct result of the rank and file problem. Yeah, 40k has horde armies but even with those horde armies you can start at a smaller point level and build up from there. With a rank and file game there's a minimum point level to get proper infantry blocks on the table. And there's a lot less room for creativity to keep people engaged as they build up to a full army. With a skirmish-style game like 40k or AoS your models stand on their own and you can customize them as much as you like. With a rank and file game you're slogging through a bunch of effectively identical models that will barely be seen in the middle of the block and have severe limits on customization because they need to fit neatly into the movement tray.

And you can say all you like that it shouldn't be a problem but the reality is that it was a common complaint I heard back then from people who decided not to pick up WHFB.


Even in AoS you still can't run the entire game from one standard model box.

You don't have to take rank and file away, you just present a different game format which uses the same models. Just like Underworlds, Warcry and Killteam. Each one is a single box of models that works right out of the box - heck Underworlds even has push-fit models in coloured plastic for playing in 5 mins.

Old World needed something like that to get people buying the fantasy models. Then it just needed a refined set of rules like Meeting Engagements to help bridge the gaps from 500 to 1500 (because if you've made it that far you are likely going to hang around).


That's all. It didn't need removing or going full round base skirmish style; though AoS proves that it does work. But they did need to address the issue of a steep entry point to help jump-start a new generation or three of gamers picking up the game

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Cadia

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
and you think it'll effectively be just a rules update along the lines of going from 8th to 9th edition, that they won't really make new models for (despite them designing entire new armies), and therefore it's taking too long even though the release timeframe for just a basic model is 2-3 years let alone a full game, and think that it's just a stopgap passion project basically no one wanted to do? That's utterly absurd.


No, I think they could release the game itself initially and add more models in following waves. Obviously they're going to add more models but that isn't a reason to hold up the rest of the game.

30k isn't "fully compatible" with 40k, there are plenty of things limited to just that that you can't swap over


Virtually everything in the 30k marine range, the overwhelming majority of 30k, has 40k rules in some form. You may not be able to use every squad exactly 1:1 with its 30k configuration but pretty much every model can be used as at least an aesthetic alternative to a 40k model. And we know that a lot of 30k kits are bought by 40k marine players.

Knights are exactly equivalent to 40k, every 30k knight has 40k rules.

Militia have no model range at all.

Admech were intended to have 40k rules until GW decided to cancel the book for no apparent reason.

The only 30k faction that doesn't have 40k rules and never had a plan for them is solar auxilia, a dead product line (the sculptor left GW) with hardly any players.

but it's even more baffling that you're claimnig that WHFB models aren't comparable and think there's "completely different aesthetic" when a significant chunk of the AoS range is still made up of WHFB models.


First of all, square bases vs. round bases is a compatibility issue. Second, yes, AoS still has some legacy WHFB products included but GW seems to intend to replace them. And those replacements aren't really a good aesthetic match with WHFB. You aren't going to have nearly as much of the "40k marine players buying 30k shoulder pads for their 40k armies" effect with a new WHFB release.

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CadianSgtBob wrote:


No, I think they could release the game itself initially and add more models in following waves. Obviously they're going to add more models but that isn't a reason to hold up the rest of the game.


GW being well known for their willingness to launch new games with no models of course.


 
   
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CadianSgtBob wrote:

First of all, square bases vs. round bases is a compatibility issue. Second, yes, AoS still has some legacy WHFB products included but GW seems to intend to replace them. And those replacements aren't really a good aesthetic match with WHFB. You aren't going to have nearly as much of the "40k marine players buying 30k shoulder pads for their 40k armies" effect with a new WHFB release.


Honestly square vs round isn't as big an issue. Put the models on round bases then make a movement tray that has round slots and you've instantly got things square again. I agree its a little more messy for characters and monsters though.

As for legacy models - eh. Skaven, Daughters of Khaine, Seraphon (lizardmen); Cities of Sigmar, Vampires, Flesheaters, Orruks, I could go on. The overwhelming majority of AoS models ARE Old World models. Thing is most AoS stuff would 100% fit into the Old World too. The Dwarves had airship technology, they just didn't use it and there's no reason they couldn't have had a huge change of heart through the End Times and unlocked reserves of ancient technology and allowed insane (possibly scottish) dwarven engineers to refine the tech into smaller airships that used concentrated bubbles to fly (because even now GW couldn't start putting full airships down).


It's the same really all over, heck some of the bigger models like the new Greater Demons were released during the End Times. The new dragon models would 100% fit even if the asthetics have changed. Old World, as noted many times, had a very high magic component. It just never quite made it through on the models for various reasons and likely just evolution of the style of models and sculpting. Eg Night Haunt are a very new style of creating models with loads of flowing parts that allow detached hands to work and such. Old World was full of ghouls and ghosts in the dark places.
Heck Old World had a whole race of living skeletons powered by magic.





GW could have just said that the End Times failed and the world continued on but after the huge events many of the races unlocked new powers, ancient technologies and the setting shifts from one where mages are super rare and most humans live mundane lives where skaven can be lies; to one where they are on the front lines fighting skaven every day and where the well of magic is unleashed and wizards are more common.

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 Overread wrote:

GW could have just said that the End Times failed and the world continued on but after the huge events many of the races unlocked new powers, ancient technologies and the setting shifts from one where mages are super rare and most humans live mundane lives where skaven can be lies; to one where they are on the front lines fighting skaven every day and where the well of magic is unleashed and wizards are more common.


Honestly the only thing that doesn't fit into The Old World would be Sigmar being a physical presence and Stormcast (even then they'd be terrible in terms of fluff but you could make them work if you squinted). Literally every other part of the AoS setting could be easily explained or placed within the Old World with little to no disruption of the setting. I have no idea why GW decided to trash it all.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/04 11:31:22



 
   
 
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