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 Daedalus81 wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
It feels like Abaddon goes really well with a Landraider. Consider this jank we can do. He starts 9 inches from the land raider on the left flank. The LR is in the center. So, your opponent deploys chaff on the left to stall Abby and more of his forces on the right flank. Turn 1, Abaddon moves within 3 inches of the LR and embarks on it. The LR then moves straight up the center 10 inches.

Turn 2, Abaddon disembarks on the right side of the Landraider. (The landraider has a big base). And he moves 6 inches diagonal and charges. So that's a 9 inch + 2d6 inch threat range. If he gets into combat, pile in 3 inches, destroys what he touches, and consolidates 3 inches. Now he is literally deep in the right flank of your opponent, where your opponent didn't expect him to be!

Abaddon can advance and charge with Red Corsairs through 'Confluence of Traitors', right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
CSM beat Levi Nids:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZrjhXNhesM&ab_channel=WatchersIntheDark

I haven't watched the whole battle yet to get anything from it. The CSM list is CoB and somewhat unusual.

There isnt anything I see that would say he cant benefit from another legion tactic.

 Dr.Duck wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
It feels like Abaddon goes really well with a Landraider. Consider this jank we can do. He starts 9 inches from the land raider on the left flank. The LR is in the center. So, your opponent deploys chaff on the left to stall Abby and more of his forces on the right flank. Turn 1, Abaddon moves within 3 inches of the LR and embarks on it. The LR then moves straight up the center 10 inches.

Turn 2, Abaddon disembarks on the right side of the Landraider. (The landraider has a big base). And he moves 6 inches diagonal and charges. So that's a 9 inch + 2d6 inch threat range. If he gets into combat, pile in 3 inches, destroys what he touches, and consolidates 3 inches. Now he is literally deep in the right flank of your opponent, where your opponent didn't expect him to be!

Abaddon can advance and charge with Red Corsairs through 'Confluence of Traitors', right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
CSM beat Levi Nids:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZrjhXNhesM&ab_channel=WatchersIntheDark

I haven't watched the whole battle yet to get anything from it. The CSM list is CoB and somewhat unusual.

There isnt anything I see that would say he cant benefit from another legion tactic.

Yup, Abaddon can use "Confluence of Traitors". But it needs to be done during the command phase. And if he is in a Land Raider during the command phase, then I don't think you can use the strategem on him.

Quick question:
Using demonic ritual, I can summon any Figure/Unit (HQ, Troop, Elite, Fast Attack,...) from the Codex? (Given that I roll good enough)

Or is it limited to Troops (for example)?

Yes, you can summon anything from the codex if the roll is high enough.

Hey,
found termies a lackluster hitting like a wet sock with accursed weapons, could upgrade some melee weapons..

..but, do you think 9-10man chosen squad bare bones marked with slaanesh and icon is a trap?

I do two rhino's going on each flank, one has 9-10man khorne marked and icon legionaires and one has chosen with support.

Trying out 2x 2man oblits next game, used to run 1x 3man. Playing red corsairs and have MoP, DP, LD 2x venomcrawlers smashing from the center.

Doing a 9-10man chosen is good target for strats, but is a trap? Already have that big melee legionaires. 9-10 is because bought a master of execution today and wondering if I would stuck it along with either of the bigger groups in a rhino.

1. Big blob of chosen a trap?
2. Experiences how to field MoE?
3. 2x 2man oblits vs. 1x 3man?

I think Chosen are a trap in general. Terminators do all the same stuff, and it isn't like having access to Icons makes them super great. They don't have weight of firepower to really use the Icons for Nurgle and Tzeentch, Icon for Khorne just makes the AP-3 overkill with their melee, so in reality you're just wanting the WS2 for the Slaanesh icon. However, you're just hitting with Accursed weapons and they already only have as many attacks each as basic Legionaires (whom get more benefit from both melee Icons, as they have the Axe and Champ Power Fist to get more from Slaanesh, and AP-2 on all Chainswords is a bigger deal for Khorne) and Terminators. That's not even getting into Possessed.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Yup, Abaddon can use "Confluence of Traitors". But it needs to be done during the command phase. And if he is in a Land Raider during the command phase, then I don't think you can use the strategem on him.

Ah, good point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Icon is just additional AP on the guns though right? For the cost, I'd argue just getting double shots from the Terminators per model is just way better.

My general thought is to eventually lean into plasma with them. At AP4 with explosions for 4 out of 5 rounds they can hurt a little. If they don't have rerolls then just going D1 should be "ok". Terminators are limited to 2 plasma only and Chosen combi put them on the same level of terminator combi-plas shooting so the gap is narrow for 40 to 50 points cheaper, which is a couple extra Chosen.

I'll have to strip points somewhere first though.

So had a game against Blood Angels yesterday. My list was Word Bearers and as follows:
Lord Disco (flames of spite and undivided daemon weapon)
MoP (tome)
Warpsmith
5 x CSM with daemon weapon and plasma gun and plasma pistol
10 x cultists
10 x cultists
9 x terminators mark of Tzeentch (Rune)
9 x Chosen (relic sword)
Venom Crawler
Venom Crawler
5 x warptalons
Landradier
3 x Oblits

His list was some of the scout like primaris troops and a ton of different jump pack units, some eradicators, Donte and some support characters. I ended up winning pretty lop sided at the end. Unit analysis below:

Word Bearers trait - I think it is one of the better traits unless you are building some kind of shoot-y vehicle list. The re-roll hits first round is clutch. And the mortal wound protection was excellent, even though my opponent did not have any mortal wound units because it save my MoP from dying from perils and saved two wounds on my Lord Disco from an explosion. I think with my melee focused army this will be my go to trait.

Lord Disco - The combo of flames of spite and the undivided daemon weapon is unreal. He kills any unit he gets into combat with. The second time I attacked with him he did 8 mortal wounds (rolled two sixes) with six attacks. Annihilated the character he was fighting, and I did not even get to fight with his other attacks both times he fought as the main attacks just killed everything. Also I was worried about survivability without the half damage warlord trait, but 1CP for -1 damage is basically as good.

MoP - he does what he does, T5 terminators and resurrection. He's great and in every Chaos list out there.

Warpsmith - not much to say. Just gave Landraider +1 to hit and healed it every turn. He did finish off a heavily damaged unit with his shooting so that's something.

Legionaries - I mean they held an objective and did some fighting mid board. I like the daemon blade as it gives a bit more punch in combat for what is essentially a mid-field objective holder, but not sure if it is worth 10 points.

Cultists - they show up. They hold back objectives or screen for deep strike. Enemy looks at them. Their dead.

Terminators - These guys are really good. I expect the Rune to get nerfed as it makes them so tank-y with the T5 from the MoP. And I have not had any issues with them failing to kill units, specifically with the re-roll to hit. They killed 8 of those golden jump back guys that Blood Angles have in one round, and with two of them not in engagement range. Negating the +1 to wound BA have was good, my opponent commented on how he really felt the effect of it, and I said imagine if he did not have that ability it would have been worse. Mark of Tzeentch saved two terminators over the game. Downside they are slow.

Chosen - so due to positioning and the way the game went, they never got out of the Landraider. I mean if we played turn 5 they would have to kill a single guy on an objective, but did not really get to see them against a good opponent. Guess they were busy playing xbox in the tank.

Venom crawlers - they did their job. Screened the Lord Disco. Their shooting is pretty medicore, but melee is good. I like the explode of 5's for a unit that is quick and in the enemy lines.

Warptalons - These guys are money. I think 5 is the way to roll with them because more is probably overkill against all but the hardest of enemies, and 5 is cheap enough that if you end up only using them for quick objective grabs and actions it is not a total waste. These guys were my MVPs of this game taking an objective early, killing a squad that charged them via interrupt, doing an action to score points, denying an objective, then going in an killing one of his last remaining units. Turn 5 would have had them take his backfield objective. They are fast, hit hard, and great utility. I highly recommend 5 in almost any build.

Oblits - These guys actually did some good work in shooting. That is because I only used the second profile not the third. I think that is the way these guys need to be used is not as AT with the big shots, but basically like plasma with the mid-level shots. Against anything that is not -1 damage I think the mid-level might be better than the big shot. Also I have not used the low level shot yet, but against armies without armor of contempt I think it could be the way to go against most units.

Landraider - yea so this thing is soooooooooo much better. The T9 made a huge difference when it bounced two melta hits that would have wounded T8. And the Laser cannon +2 damage made a huge difference as every wound killed one of his elite infantry, no rolling a 1 or 2 for guys to survive. I can't wait to see how it does against vehicles. Also the Warpsmith giving it plus 1 to hit and healing the few wounds that do get though it probably worth the points to support such an expensive unit.

Well I hope this was helpful. LET THE GALAXY BURN!!!!!!!!!

I don't know about a trap - but I think a big unit of Chosen is potentially expensive with sort of weird trading dynamics as a result.

I.E. A 5 man squad with 2 combi-weapons (melta or plasma) for 145 points gives you a unit that seems threatening to a fair number of things in the game. I also feel at that price if the unit dies its not the end of the world. I'm not sure its the best thing in the book - but its not explicitly bad vs 40k as a whole. Sure its only 30 points more to get 5 Terminators with say 2 combi meltas - but I'm not convinced that's a no-brainer if you were putting those points in elsewhere.

By contrast if you go down the road off taking 10, you are up to 250 points. 20 for a mark and icon. potentially 40 for 4 combi-weapons. That just seems like a unit that potentially fails to find something suitable to go after - and then gets eaten by something nastier up the food chain.

I think a 10 man blob of Terminators (55~ points more?) has more of a place - but its going down a MoT road, with say the Black Rune. I think they do hit like wet noodles for the points - but its harder for your opponent to just pick them up, so they should hold a portion of the table for a few turns.

Tyel wrote:
I don't know about a trap - but I think a big unit of Chosen is potentially expensive with sort of weird trading dynamics as a result.

I.E. A 5 man squad with 2 combi-weapons (melta or plasma) for 145 points gives you a unit that seems threatening to a fair number of things in the game. I also feel at that price if the unit dies its not the end of the world. I'm not sure its the best thing in the book - but its not explicitly bad vs 40k as a whole. Sure its only 30 points more to get 5 Terminators with say 2 combi meltas - but I'm not convinced that's a no-brainer if you were putting those points in elsewhere.

By contrast if you go down the road off taking 10, you are up to 250 points. 20 for a mark and icon. potentially 40 for 4 combi-weapons. That just seems like a unit that potentially fails to find something suitable to go after - and then gets eaten by something nastier up the food chain.

I think a 10 man blob of Terminators (55~ points more?) has more of a place - but its going down a MoT road, with say the Black Rune. I think they do hit like wet noodles for the points - but its harder for your opponent to just pick them up, so they should hold a portion of the table for a few turns.

- Icon in BL makes you effective immune to attrition
- Terminators can't stack on one particular weapon as easily
- A 55 point difference is enough to slide in two more Chosen in comparison
- Chosen bring the same number of swings in melee and the same number of shots if they're bringing combi-*

Their special rule is cute, but if you can pick up a small unit then they'll effectively always be exploding regardless of the circumstance, which makes small units dangerous to expose to them.

Terminators Must have fists to deal damage. In a 10 man unit you can have 6+2 chainfists. Some one on reddit did the math and Accursed fall super short in most areas. Chaos have many ways to get rerolls which offset the fists main drawback.

Shooting in terms is lacking in AT but can clear chaff pretty well with lots of shots. in 10 you can get 2 Heavy flamers and 4 combi flamers. 2D6 +4 S5 and 4D6+8 S4 plus 32 bolter shots is pretty decent.

Bro seriously what is up with this jank? Terms standard load out is fists and we cant even have a unit full of them?

 Dr.Duck wrote:
Terminators Must have fists to deal damage. In a 10 man unit you can have 6+2 chainfists. Some one on reddit did the math and Accursed fall super short in most areas. Chaos have many ways to get rerolls which offset the fists main drawback.

Shooting in terms is lacking in AT but can clear chaff pretty well with lots of shots. in 10 you can get 2 Heavy flamers and 4 combi flamers. 2D6 +4 S5 and 4D6+8 S4 plus 32 bolter shots is pretty decent.

Bro seriously what is up with this jank? Terms standard load out is fists and we cant even have a unit full of them?

Only 2 combi-flamers allowed, sadly.

Black Legion terminators can hit on 2s with fists fairly easily if that's your jam.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Dr.Duck wrote:
Terminators Must have fists to deal damage. In a 10 man unit you can have 6+2 chainfists. Some one on reddit did the math and Accursed fall super short in most areas. Chaos have many ways to get rerolls which offset the fists main drawback.

Shooting in terms is lacking in AT but can clear chaff pretty well with lots of shots. in 10 you can get 2 Heavy flamers and 4 combi flamers. 2D6 +4 S5 and 4D6+8 S4 plus 32 bolter shots is pretty decent.

Bro seriously what is up with this jank? Terms standard load out is fists and we cant even have a unit full of them?

Only 2 combi-flamers allowed, sadly.

Black Legion terminators can hit on 2s with fists fairly easily if that's your jam.

Ya 2 per 5 and 4 per 10

I feel like you have to take fists if you wanna do damage. I dont think theres too much spaming of single wound infantry other than guard and the flamers/bolters should take care of most of it. You still have 2 accursted weapons in the unit. and somewhere between 30 and 45 attacks if you using the BL strategem.

Did I miss something is Cypher and Fallen gone?

 Rogzor87 wrote:
Did I miss something is Cypher and Fallen gone?

Cypher is in there but the fallen dont have a kit. I couldnt find them in the book

 Dr.Duck wrote:


Cypher is in there but the fallen dont have a kit. I couldnt find them in the book

): That is a big shame. Well cool Cypher is in there still. I'll have to look to see what his rules and such are.

So one of the earlier posts mention this as well. And some of my games have raised this out. We tend to skew towards melee. This means we benefit the most once we get to turn 3 onwards when we hit Wanton Slaughter. This is when we start getting exploding 6s in combat.

So, this makes me wonder if we spend turn 1 or 2 positioning and doing secondaries. And then turn 3 onwards is when we go all in with a massive melee knockout punch.

To this end, we can consider small units of 1 or 2 chaos spawn as a trading unit, or to just throw them on an objective to be irritating in turn 1 or 2. They have their ridiculous renegeration rule, are T5 and are so cheap we won't care much even if they die.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Dr.Duck wrote:
Terminators Must have fists to deal damage. In a 10 man unit you can have 6+2 chainfists. Some one on reddit did the math and Accursed fall super short in most areas. Chaos have many ways to get rerolls which offset the fists main drawback.

Shooting in terms is lacking in AT but can clear chaff pretty well with lots of shots. in 10 you can get 2 Heavy flamers and 4 combi flamers. 2D6 +4 S5 and 4D6+8 S4 plus 32 bolter shots is pretty decent.

Bro seriously what is up with this jank? Terms standard load out is fists and we cant even have a unit full of them?

Only 2 combi-flamers allowed, sadly.

Black Legion terminators can hit on 2s with fists fairly easily if that's your jam.

I thought it was 2 Melta, 1 Flamer, 1 Plasma?

EviscerationPlague wrote:

I thought it was 2 Melta, 1 Flamer, 1 Plasma?

Yes, for every 5 termis.

 p5freak wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

I thought it was 2 Melta, 1 Flamer, 1 Plasma?

Yes, for every 5 termis.

its 2 flamer 2 melta 1 plasma per 5

3 fist 1 chain fist 1 double acursed (presumably for double lightning claw) per 5

1 heavy weapon per 5


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
So one of the earlier posts mention this as well. And some of my games have raised this out. We tend to skew towards melee. This means we benefit the most once we get to turn 3 onwards when we hit Wanton Slaughter. This is when we start getting exploding 6s in combat.

So, this makes me wonder if we spend turn 1 or 2 positioning and doing secondaries. And then turn 3 onwards is when we go all in with a massive melee knockout punch.

To this end, we can consider small units of 1 or 2 chaos spawn as a trading unit, or to just throw them on an objective to be irritating in turn 1 or 2. They have their ridiculous renegeration rule, are T5 and are so cheap we won't care much even if they die.

I want to run squads of chaos spawn so bad. They seem so great as a skirmishing unit. But I feel like they compete with another amazing skirmishing unit the VC and to a lesser extent Warp talons and bikes.

All of these including spawn will likely trade up in points and out right win against other skirmishing units. I just really wish we had more than3 FA.

Gonna see if we cant actually manage to run a brigade just maxing out MSU. Quite a few of our options like talons, possessed, cralwers legionies with book upgrade are quite cheap and function very well in small units partly because our melee output is pretty insane.

You can barely fill out the brigade without taking more really sub par options. Prob not feasible. But I could fit in 3 units of single chaos spawn lol.
 

**++ Brigade Detachment -4CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [99 PL, 1,930pts, -4CP] ++**

 

**+ Configuration +**

 

**Detachment Command Cost [-4CP]**

 

**Gametype**

 

**Legion**

 

**+ HQ +**

 

**Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 175pts]:** Chaos Undivided, Helstalker autocannon, Techno-virus injector

 

**Master of Possession [6 PL, 105pts]:** Chaos Undivided

 

**Master of Possession [6 PL, 105pts]:** Chaos Undivided

 

**+ Troops +**

 

**Cultist Mob [2 PL, 50pts]**


. **9x Chaos Cultist w/ cultist firearm:** 9x Cultist firearm, 9x Frag & Krak grenades

. **Cultist Champion:** Autopistol

 

**Cultist Mob [2 PL, 50pts]**


. **9x Chaos Cultist w/ cultist firearm:** 9x Cultist firearm, 9x Frag & Krak grenades

. **Cultist Champion:** Autopistol

 

**Cultist Mob [2 PL, 50pts]**


. **9x Chaos Cultist w/ cultist firearm:** 9x Cultist firearm, 9x Frag & Krak grenades

. **Cultist Champion:** Autopistol

 

**Cultist Mob [2 PL, 50pts]**


. **9x Chaos Cultist w/ cultist firearm:** 9x Cultist firearm, 9x Frag & Krak grenades

. **Cultist Champion:** Autopistol

 

**Legionaries [6 PL, 120pts]:** Chaos Undivided


. **Aspiring Champion:** Boltgun, Power fist

. **Marine w/ balefire tome:** Balefire tome

. **3x Marine w/ boltgun:** 3x Bolt pistol, 3x Boltgun, 3x Frag & Krak grenades

 

**Legionaries [6 PL, 120pts]:** Chaos Undivided


. **Aspiring Champion:** Boltgun, Power fist

. **Marine w/ balefire tome:** Balefire tome

. **3x Marine w/ boltgun:** 3x Bolt pistol, 3x Boltgun, 3x Frag & Krak grenades

 

**+ Elites +**

 

**Master of Executions [4 PL, 65pts]:** Chaos Undivided

 

**Possessed [7 PL, 140pts]:** Possessed Champion


. **4x Possessed:** 4x Hideous mutations

 

**Possessed [7 PL, 140pts]:** Possessed Champion


. **4x Possessed:** 4x Hideous mutations

 

**+ Fast Attack +**

 

**Chaos Spawn [1 PL, 25pts]:** Chaos Spawn

 

**Venomcrawler [6 PL, 105pts]**

 

**Venomcrawler [6 PL, 105pts]**

 

**Venomcrawler [6 PL, 105pts]**

 

**+ Heavy Support +**

 

**Chaos Vindicator [7 PL, 140pts]:** Vindicator siege shield

 

**Chaos Vindicator [7 PL, 140pts]:** Vindicator siege shield

 

**Chaos Vindicator [7 PL, 140pts]:** Vindicator siege shield

 

**++ Total: [99 PL, -4CP, 1,930pts] ++**

 

Created with [BattleScribe](https://www.battlescribe.net)

Whats so great about the VC ? It can hardly hide, has a big base, and cant move through ruins, spawns can hide, and move through ruins.

For anyone who is new to tactica thread's and is confused by the Daedalus posts, he has two character traits:
Off the cuff, confident rules statements which are wrong - e.g. number of combi-flamers in a terminator unit. I'm sure he has admitted in the past he rushes to post things rather than check.
A pathological need to be contrarion and non-orthodox, and to try to find the hidden gem that everyone else has overlooked whether it exists or not - e.g. Chosen, Helbrutes and also see his body of work in the TS thread regarding Scarab Occult. Given how early we are in the release of the codex, experimentation is good and it doesn't drastically hurt to have someone throwing ideas against the wall. But just be mindful that he will avoid talking about the best units in the book.

My current thinking is that Terminators and Possessed both stand out as much more efficient than the other similar options.

I think you can over equip the Terminators though.

My own off the cuff hot take - 10 Cultists are much better than 5 Legionaries by savings you 40 points, so if you have the terminators/bikers/raptors to not take them, you won't.

 p5freak wrote:
Whats so great about the VC ? It can hardly hide, has a big base, and cant move through ruins, spawns can hide, and move through ruins.

It has speed, meaningful shooting and meaningful melee. So very efficient for points, it should probably be 120 not 105. DG's Myphytic Blight Hauler started at 140 and has only just made it to 120 eighteen months later. Although I think you could argue that MBH (and FBD) are both overcosted at 120 compared to the top factions, and maybe they should be 105, not sure on that, we will need to see a lot more games.

The Master of Possession's Psychic Mutated invigoration (+1 toughness or +1 strength) is soooo good. Its single handed making me relook some daemon engines which I in the past didn't think much of.

Consider this. Almost all our daemon engines, be it venomcrawler, Maulerfiend and forgefiend are T7. They are relatively easy to wreck with enough Str8 guns, or indeed any kind of anti tank shooting. But what if they were T8 instead of T7 ? (because of the mutated invigoration psychic).

Suddenly, a T8 Maulerfiend charging up one flank looks like it can survive some anti tank fire, and once it does survive to reach the enemy lines, the carnage is going to be so awesome.

Even a 105 point venomcrawler. Its already very efficient and cheap for its points. But what if we boosted it to T8 with the psychic. Now we have a T8 daemon engine that can do serious damage on a lightly defended objective, and it should beat a lot of stuff that are usually stood up on such an objective. And it can't even be degraded! It suddenly looks like a really good deal now for just 105 points. And at T8, your opponent can't just shoot 2 Str 8 shots at it and hope for the best. Statiscially, a T8 venom crawler with a 5++ invul save requires 9 dark lance shots at it to get 2 shots through all its T8 and saves. 9 dark lance shots! Can you imagine a drukhari army wasting such much good firepower trying to kill off this 105 point model? lol.

And that Maulerfiend with 12 wounds? If it has T8 (because of the psychic). You need 13 to 14 shots of dark lances to get 3 shots through its Toughness and saves. (Because 2 shots through is unlikely to kill it). 13 !!! An opponent could quite easily underestimate how much ranged firepower is needed to kill this Maulerfiend, fail to kill it, and now we have it stomping through their lines inflicting carnage.

And you really only need that T8 for just round 1 and 2. After that, when the daemon engine is in your opponent lines, trashing around killing stuff, it has survived long enough to achieve its purpose already.

It is very good.

You can put the spell on any Legion unit, the DAEMONKIN / DAEMON ENGINE rider only matters if you are getting a 10+ result for the spell.

The most efficient targets for it are the most expensive units and those units where the Toughness going up one really matters.

Which yet again leads us back to 10 Terminators with their T4, where +1T matters vs S4, S5 and S8. Also being a Toughness boost you can combine it with a -1 to wound relic...

This is of course also why it is nice for the +1S too. Functionally a +1 to wound against some targets that you can then stack with a real +1 to wound.

 Rogzor87 wrote:

 Dr.Duck wrote:


Cypher is in there but the fallen dont have a kit. I couldnt find them in the book

): That is a big shame. Well cool Cypher is in there still. I'll have to look to see what his rules and such are.

Cypher is pretty good. He's a pistol-wielder and has....basically a sort of transhuman physiology but on the to hit roll, he doesn't take up a slot if you have a chaos lord and he keeps a version of the 'no free command points for you! Rule from the fallen angels detachment.

Plus he can 'so long suckas!' Himself into reserves once per game.



If you want to do a fallen angels force....I guess a chosen vanguard? Not sure which Legion fits fallen best, though.

Hopefully we get a - less awful - army of reknown version of the white Dwarf index.

EightFoldPath wrote:
For anyone who is new to tactica thread's and is confused by the Daedalus posts, he has two character traits:
Off the cuff, confident rules statements which are wrong - e.g. number of combi-flamers in a terminator unit. I'm sure he has admitted in the past he rushes to post things rather than check.
A pathological need to be contrarion and non-orthodox, and to try to find the hidden gem that everyone else has overlooked whether it exists or not - e.g. Chosen, Helbrutes and also see his body of work in the TS thread regarding Scarab Occult. Given how early we are in the release of the codex, experimentation is good and it doesn't drastically hurt to have someone throwing ideas against the wall. But just be mindful that he will avoid talking about the best units in the book.

My current thinking is that Terminators and Possessed both stand out as much more efficient than the other similar options.

I think you can over equip the Terminators though.

My own off the cuff hot take - 10 Cultists are much better than 5 Legionaries by savings you 40 points, so if you have the terminators/bikers/raptors to not take them, you won't.

 p5freak wrote:
Whats so great about the VC ? It can hardly hide, has a big base, and cant move through ruins, spawns can hide, and move through ruins.

It has speed, meaningful shooting and meaningful melee. So very efficient for points, it should probably be 120 not 105. DG's Myphytic Blight Hauler started at 140 and has only just made it to 120 eighteen months later. Although I think you could argue that MBH (and FBD) are both overcosted at 120 compared to the top factions, and maybe they should be 105, not sure on that, we will need to see a lot more games.

I agree with Cultists looking more attractive than Legionaires right now. Their shooting is meh and they can't specialize, and the melee doesn't have enough multi damage. Meanwhile, if confirmed after the two week errata that Rubrics taken with an Icon in this codex = AP-3, my list will 100% be a Vanguard detachment.

How are people running possessed? I feel like 5 might not be enough for an anchor unit but 10 might be overkill against most units. I was thinking of using 10 with the -1 wound relic (which I believe they can take) as my center unit instead of ten terminators and make the terminators 5 man and deep strike them right harass backfield. Or 5 possessed to support the ten man terminator squad in the center. Thoughts?

Possessed don't get access to Relics for the Champ. If you want them tougher, you need to shell out for psyker support.

locarno24 wrote:

 Rogzor87 wrote:

 Dr.Duck wrote:


Cypher is in there but the fallen dont have a kit. I couldnt find them in the book

): That is a big shame. Well cool Cypher is in there still. I'll have to look to see what his rules and such are.

If you want to do a fallen angels force....I guess a chosen vanguard? Not sure which Legion fits fallen best, though.

Hopefully we get a - less awful - army of reknown version of the white Dwarf index.

Thinking about it: two things occur which annoy.

1) the odds are low of a Fallen Angels AoR because in keeping with the Terminus Est Assault Force and Warpmeld Pact, we're likely to get a Traitor Guard AoR that gets rid of, or even reverses, Mere Mortals - because making such a big deal of "you've got all these new cultist options" but then sticking the limitation of 'but you've gotta bring a CORE INFANTRY unit for each one' kind of ruins the idea of a mostly cultist army.

2) There is an official Fallen kit. It's an alternate use of the Dark Angels Company Veterans kit but GW specifically sells it to you as a Fallen Angels kit.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Possessed don't get access to Relics for the Champ. If you want them tougher, you need to shell out for psyker support.

They do get access. The Possessed Champion has the word Champion so can take a relic, but most of the relics other than the Rune require a specific weapon which they don't have. Same issue with Warp Talons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also think it is very very unlikely the first CSM FAQ is going to buff Rubric shooting to 3AP.

 xeen wrote:
How are people running possessed? I feel like 5 might not be enough for an anchor unit but 10 might be overkill against most units. I was thinking of using 10 with the -1 wound relic (which I believe they can take) as my center unit instead of ten terminators and make the terminators 5 man and deep strike them right harass backfield. Or 5 possessed to support the ten man terminator squad in the center. Thoughts?

I think the Possessed can be the anchor unit just like Terminators. There is some clunkiness to them as they can't get Dark Apostle prayer buffs and miss out on some strategems as well due to lacking CORE, but they are just very efficient at 9.33 points per T5 3+/5++ wound.

I think 10 + 5 + 5 + 5 (+ 5 + 5) of any mix of Terminators/Possessed is worth testing out, the basic units at 140 and 165 are nice trade pieces. But, we also may find that 10 + 10 + 5 (+ 5 + 5 + 5) is more where we end up or 10 + 10 + 10. As I've said before I do think there could be a place for Chosen as the 3rd 10 (or Warp Talons or Raptors or Bikers or Rubrics or Plague Marines or Bezerkers) but you would have to have a compelling reason for taking them. Those other faster units do get more interesting as substitutes for the 5 man trade pieces.

I find it really interesting that Possessed and Warp Talons are the same cost at 28 points. I'm not convinced they are worth the same points but in theory someone at GW is (assuming they don't use dice or a dart board to determine points).