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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Or not everything has to be reduced to mathammer and efficiencies.

No, but until GW fixes how they can buy equipment I'd rather just have the bare minimum cultists.

 Curze08 wrote:

I guess so. Actually, I am playing with legionaries for my obsec at this point anyway. I love legionaries because they are literally the poster boys for our codex chaos space marines. Its just that I tend to run them as cheap as possible, with possibly just a power fist on champion. They are far more survivable to shooting and combat than 10 cultists.

Ok, but 5 marines with a power fist...whats that...100 points? Does that unit put in more work than 20 cultists? Which is also 2 units that can be in different places on the board and also contribute to 2/3 of the troop tax for Battalion. I guess it could also be dependant on Legion traits. I run Night Lords so not sure I see one 5 man Legionnaire squad doing much more than 2 squads of cultist. Main issue for me is cultists are not very fluffy for Night Lords, but they just seem like a more efficient use of points that allows me spend up bigger on juicier elites and fast attack. Its sad though because I want regular CSM to be worth taking :(

Unless you invest in them cultists die pretty hard. I do find the idea of regenerating LD10+ cultists pretty amusing though.

 Curze08 wrote:
Fair enough...but this is a tactica thread right? Not a nostalgia or fluff thread.

It's also not the tournament sub-forum. Not everything is either/or.

Re LeRufus' question:
There is an issue currently with all the forge world units including the land raiders. They don't have TRAITORIS ASTARTES as a keyword which is required to build a Chaos Space Marines detachment, see page 76.

That being said, we are of course expecting them to be FAQd back to functionality and in friendly games you can assume the keyword is there. But probably best to assume they don't have the <MARK>s too.

However, given that their feeble arms will be tired after typing TRAITORIS ASTARTES so many times, I suspect the FAQ writer will not be able to muster the energy to give T9 to the FW land raiders, therefore I would say the vanilla land raider will remain the most interesting.

Assuming they ever do add the Kratos to CSM, I probably still prefer the land raider with its cheaper price, T9 and solid anti tank load out.

I'm not sure the land raider is going to be seen at the deep end of tournament play. Although there is a distinct lack of good anti tank options in CSM, so something will end up being the best option.

I think all the FW vehicles with D3+ melee weapons are worth a close look too, as most of them are getting a Legion trait for the first time, and there are some very good melee traits around. Could a M10+6 Red Corsair Blood Slaughterer be worth 140 points?

Evisceration Plague, I saw you post a list a few pages back with two <LEGION>s in it. That isn't a tournament legal army in Nachmund or Nephilim. You've got to take a single LEGION (with some limited exceptions).

Nobody I know plays Nephilim (because it's hot garbage) but I'll have to look at the Nachmund rules again before I play. If you're indeed correct, that definitely blows.

Wow, I love chaos bikers now. A big unit of 9 can easily be our go to for shooting. Especially if we use Abaddon to give them reroll all hits and all wounds. One daemon shell strategem makes them AP2 with tzeentch and now their range is also 30 inches plus they already move 14".

Look at the math. Even against a T7, 3+ vehicle, 36 shots with exploding 6s and full rerolls will do 41 hits and rerolling wounds would give us 22.8 wounds after which 15.2 wounds would penetrate the tank's saves. That's more or less one dead tank... using bolters! And its a dead dreadnaught too because bolters don't care about their -1 damage. It would blow any plane I can think of to bits and pieces.

Suddenly, I am asking myself why I even need to run anti-tank if I have this unit that can already do that so well.

As to the 10 cultists v 5 Legionaries discussion, I have been playing two squads of ten cultists, and one squad of 5 legionaries. I could bring another squad of 10 cultists if I wanted. I like having at least one 5 man legionary squad. I usually have a daemon blade for some extra punch on the legionary squad since I use them as my mid-objective holders. And I had a few extra points so I gave them a plasma gun, pistol. So 115 v. 55 (I put the heavy stubber on the cultist against because of how the points were allocated). I have been playing with the 6 CP in all games, so I don't think paying 3 for a vanguard is really feasible.

I have noticed that ten cultists can only do three things really, screen for deep-strike, hide behind LOS blocking terrain and hold a back objective and do a backfield action. Ten of them, even with the heavy stubber, do no damage to basically everything in the game. I think since the start of 8th my cultist units might have killed like 4 models total over the 20+ games I used them. They also die so easily if targeted by basically anything in the game. As such you can't really count on moving them up the field because they are going to die and not make it anywhere, and then probably give up secondary points for like grind etc.

The 5 man Legionary squad, while clearly not as good as any of the elite units, has done solid work for me. They can't just be easily removed with junk shooting (like a 5 marine troop squad, character shooting, or light shots like lasguns) so your opponent has to either shoot them with something that can hurt them (thus not shooting the terminators, possessed, etc.) or ignore them which is cool cause they are obsec and probably sitting on an objective. Also I found that the 20 or so points I put into them to make them a bit more punchy did allow them to meaningfully contribute to hurting the enemy (in my last game they killed 3 death company in CC and then plasma death a few more marines there after). Personally, if I wanted to be really efficient, I would bring 5 with a chain cannon only. that would be 105 points. Put in 20 more for Mark of Tzeentch and an Icon to make the chain cannon -2 ap and I think that unit would provide 125 points worth of value.

I don't think efficiency wise I would take more than 1 Legionary unit (as filling two mandatory troop spots for only 100 points with cultists is the way to go) but I think there is a case for one unit.

But it isn't JUST 10 Cultists vs 5 Legionaires. It's really 20 Cultists vs 5 Legionaires.

 xeen wrote:
As to the 10 cultists v 5 Legionaries discussion, I have been playing two squads of ten cultists, and one squad of 5 legionaries. I could bring another squad of 10 cultists if I wanted. I like having at least one 5 man legionary squad. I usually have a daemon blade for some extra punch on the legionary squad since I use them as my mid-objective holders. And I had a few extra points so I gave them a plasma gun, pistol. So 115 v. 55 (I put the heavy stubber on the cultist against because of how the points were allocated). I have been playing with the 6 CP in all games, so I don't think paying 3 for a vanguard is really feasible.

I have noticed that ten cultists can only do three things really, screen for deep-strike, hide behind LOS blocking terrain and hold a back objective and do a backfield action. Ten of them, even with the heavy stubber, do no damage to basically everything in the game. I think since the start of 8th my cultist units might have killed like 4 models total over the 20+ games I used them. They also die so easily if targeted by basically anything in the game. As such you can't really count on moving them up the field because they are going to die and not make it anywhere, and then probably give up secondary points for like grind etc.

The 5 man Legionary squad, while clearly not as good as any of the elite units, has done solid work for me. They can't just be easily removed with junk shooting (like a 5 marine troop squad, character shooting, or light shots like lasguns) so your opponent has to either shoot them with something that can hurt them (thus not shooting the terminators, possessed, etc.) or ignore them which is cool cause they are obsec and probably sitting on an objective. Also I found that the 20 or so points I put into them to make them a bit more punchy did allow them to meaningfully contribute to hurting the enemy (in my last game they killed 3 death company in CC and then plasma death a few more marines there after). Personally, if I wanted to be really efficient, I would bring 5 with a chain cannon only. that would be 105 points. Put in 20 more for Mark of Tzeentch and an Icon to make the chain cannon -2 ap and I think that unit would provide 125 points worth of value.

I don't think efficiency wise I would take more than 1 Legionary unit (as filling two mandatory troop spots for only 100 points with cultists is the way to go) but I think there is a case for one unit.

I agree with your observations. Many of the matchplay maps only have one backfield objective. Theoratically, you only need one cultist squad there. But I think two is ok as well, because you want to do secondary objectives that require actions. Be it RND, or For the Dark Gods. You even want to keep those two cultist squads in each of your back quarter in case you are doing engage on all fronts. The issue is when you want to perform actions upfield. RND can be done upfield by cultists coming in from reserve (provided they don't get screened out). But you do spend 1 CP to put them in reserve. But For the Dark Gods is in the center of the quarter so you can't just come in from a board edge and do it.

Also if you are trying to take the center or any upfield objective. Having a legionaire squad with you gives you obsec when you are trying to overwhelm that objective. Its not a small thing. Because lets say you take over an objective with an elite unit and a legionaire unit. Now your opponent needs to consider. Kill the legionaire unit with obsec, the elite unit will counter attack. Kill the elite unit, you are still on the point with obsec. And legionaire units are best in this kind of battles which require durability and fighting. A squad of Cultists won't last at all in the same situation unless we buff them to the sky in other ways (like with a Dark apostle and Black Ruin of Damnation).

Anyone have any experience with 75 point Accursed Cultist squad in games? They seem like they'd be a little more durable with the Torments compared to Cultist Mobs and they regenerate wounds.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Wow, I love chaos bikers now. A big unit of 9 can easily be our go to for shooting. Especially if we use Abaddon to give them reroll all hits and all wounds. One daemon shell strategem makes them AP2 with tzeentch and now their range is also 30 inches plus they already move 14".

Look at the math. Even against a T7, 3+ vehicle, 36 shots with exploding 6s and full rerolls will do 41 hits and rerolling wounds would give us 22.8 wounds after which 15.2 wounds would penetrate the tank's saves. That's more or less one dead tank... using bolters! And its a dead dreadnaught too because bolters don't care about their -1 damage. It would blow any plane I can think of to bits and pieces.

Suddenly, I am asking myself why I even need to run anti-tank if I have this unit that can already do that so well.

Ive been kinda wondering this. Been thinking in the line of running khorne with all those chainsword attacks at -2. But tzeench seems the ticket for sure. Does the -2 work on the plas you can take too?

Wish I didnt sell al my bikes

A khorne legion squad hits like a brick! On the charge, each model puts out 4 S5 AP-2 attacks - not far short of power sword stats with a number of attacks matching most army's elites.

Throw in something like Word Bearers for baked in full rerolls and you can get a lot of fighting power with minimal support needed.

 Dr.Duck wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Wow, I love chaos bikers now.

Suddenly, I am asking myself why I even need to run anti-tank if I have this unit that can already do that so well.

Ive been kinda wondering this. Been thinking in the line of running khorne with all those chainsword attacks at -2. But tzeench seems the ticket for sure. Does the -2 work on the plas you can take too?

Wish I didnt sell al my bikes

The Tzeentch Icon will improve AP by 1 for all shooting. So yes, your plasma gun will get AP4. But the Strategem daemon shell only applies to bolt weapons.

Any1 know why I’m getting a error when trying to include a second cultist unit in my list? It’s telling me limit 1. Wat

 Dr.Duck wrote:
Any1 know why I’m getting a error when trying to include a second cultist unit in my list? It’s telling me limit 1. Wat

You cannot have more cultists units than core units. So do your core units first then try to add cultists.

 Curze08 wrote:

 Dr.Duck wrote:
Any1 know why I’m getting a error when trying to include a second cultist unit in my list? It’s telling me limit 1. Wat

You cannot have more cultists units than core units. So do your core units first then try to add cultists.

I think it's specifically CORE infantry too.

EightFoldPath wrote:
Re LeRufus' question:
There is an issue currently with all the forge world units including the land raiders. They don't have TRAITORIS ASTARTES as a keyword which is required to build a Chaos Space Marines detachment, see page 76.

I am a bit confused, in my Codex (German) there is no Unit with that Keyword, only Faction Word TRAITORIS ASTARTES...
Seems a bit messy ^^'

Sorry you are right it is a faction keyword (not just a keyword). The units in the CSM codex do have it, but none of the forge world units in the forge world book have it yet.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Curze08 wrote:

 Dr.Duck wrote:
Any1 know why I’m getting a error when trying to include a second cultist unit in my list? It’s telling me limit 1. Wat

You cannot have more cultists units than core units. So do your core units first then try to add cultists.

I think it's specifically CORE infantry too.

It is. Its quite annoying as it makes doing a traitor guard esque army really hard. Which is odd given the new troop and hq cultist choices.

locarno24 wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Curze08 wrote:

 Dr.Duck wrote:
Any1 know why I’m getting a error when trying to include a second cultist unit in my list? It’s telling me limit 1. Wat

You cannot have more cultists units than core units. So do your core units first then try to add cultists.

I think it's specifically CORE infantry too.

It is. Its quite annoying as it makes doing a traitor guard esque army really hard. Which is odd given the new troop and hq cultist choices.

It sucks too, since that would've helped me tons building the first list I did here.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

locarno24 wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Curze08 wrote:

 Dr.Duck wrote:
Any1 know why I’m getting a error when trying to include a second cultist unit in my list? It’s telling me limit 1. Wat

You cannot have more cultists units than core units. So do your core units first then try to add cultists.

I think it's specifically CORE infantry too.

It is. Its quite annoying as it makes doing a traitor guard esque army really hard. Which is odd given the new troop and hq cultist choices.

It sucks too, since that would've helped me tons building the first list I did here.

Only thing I can think of is add some heavy armor plates to Heavy weapon teams and proxy them as Havocs. That gets you 3 cultist squads.

Really hating how competitive our hq slot is. I always wanna fit 1-2 more characters after I pick 3.

Really want to fit a Dank Apostle in most lists, but just can’t find room. Additionally bro priests can be made insanely beefy with all the buffs you can give Exalted possession, Omen of potency, diabolic strength and Eightfold-cursed crozius. 11 attacks at S9 but auto wounding against anything not vehicle, -4 AP and 3D. Hes not super useful but you can swap out the crozius relic for Epistle of Lorgar which allows for 1 more prayer.

What kinda blows bout the apostle is there really isnt any ways to get them to know or chant another buff outside of WB and even so most of the chants dont stand out above the psychic powers. Additionally the chant that he has to take is super redundant in WB. However giving him MoS gives him otherwise free access to a advance and charge chant which ,might be needed for things like terms, Abaddon etc.

 Dr.Duck wrote:


Really hating how competitive our hq slot is. I always wanna fit 1-2 more characters after I pick 3.

What kinda blows bout the apostle is there really isnt any ways to get them to know or chant another buff outside of WB and even so most of the chants dont stand out above the psychic powers. Additionally the chant that he has to take is super redundant in WB. However giving him MoS gives him otherwise free access to a advance and charge chant which ,might be needed for things like terms, Abaddon etc.

Hmm.. well, you could put Abaddon in a supreme command detachment, and then you will have 3 HQ slots in your batallion for characters. If you want a fighty character, master of executions for 65 points in an elite slot is great too. The issue is more that if you spend so many points on characters, you will have a much smaller army than your opponent. Your characters are going to need to do a lot of heavy lifting.

Eldenfirefly wrote:

 Dr.Duck wrote:


Really hating how competitive our hq slot is. I always wanna fit 1-2 more characters after I pick 3.

What kinda blows bout the apostle is there really isnt any ways to get them to know or chant another buff outside of WB and even so most of the chants dont stand out above the psychic powers. Additionally the chant that he has to take is super redundant in WB. However giving him MoS gives him otherwise free access to a advance and charge chant which ,might be needed for things like terms, Abaddon etc.

Hmm.. well, you could put Abaddon in a supreme command detachment, and then you will have 3 HQ slots in your batallion for characters. If you want a fighty character, master of executions for 65 points in an elite slot is great too. The issue is more that if you spend so many points on characters, you will have a much smaller army than your opponent. Your characters are going to need to do a lot of heavy lifting.

I dont find it too difficult for many of the characters to earn their points back. The better options are either reasonably priced and have significant support potential [atleast in the right legion] (MoP, DarkA, Sorc) or are reasonably priced and have some pretty hefty damage potential (Disco, MoE) or are pretty pricey but do both (Abaddon, DP I guess to a lesser extent but im not really feeling this guy atm.)

Current list is running a Disco and a MoP and im debating between another MoP or Apostle.

Good call on the supcom, didnt consider that.

Well, don't forget your secondaries also. You really don't want to bring only one psyker and end up not being able to take any psychic secondaries because the MOP psychics are too useful to waste on doing a psychic action.

 Curze08 wrote:
Anyone have any experience with 75 point Accursed Cultist squad in games? They seem like they'd be a little more durable with the Torments compared to Cultist Mobs and they regenerate wounds.

I did not realize they were troops. That makes them more interesting indeed. Especially if you want to use the cultist buffs.

Yeah. They give up their guns, but if you were relying on 10 autoguns to....uh.....anything, you're kinda doing it wrong.

In return, they offer wounds at basically the same cost as regular cultists - 75pts for 14 wounds instead of 50 for 10.

In return you get T4 and a 6+ ignore wounds roll, making them nearly twice as tough to bolter fire and still just as able to benefit from to-hit penalties and save bonuses from cover, and with a mix of 1w and 3w models you can play damage allocation games to ensure it does take 14 wounding hits to wipe them out. Add in objective secured, free model regeneration every turn and the fact that torments are at least not awful in melee and if you want a sub 100 point unit to run to an objective then sit there and defend it and they're probably the best value choice going.

locarno24 wrote:
Yeah. They give up their guns, but if you were relying on 10 autoguns to....uh.....anything, you're kinda doing it wrong.

In return, they offer wounds at basically the same cost as regular cultists - 75pts for 14 wounds instead of 50 for 10.

In return you get T4 and a 6+ ignore wounds roll, making them nearly twice as tough to bolter fire and still just as able to benefit from to-hit penalties and save bonuses from cover, and with a mix of 1w and 3w models you can play damage allocation games to ensure it does take 14 wounding hits to wipe them out. Add in objective secured, free model regeneration every turn and the fact that torments are at least not awful in melee and if you want a sub 100 point unit to run to an objective then sit there and defend it and they're probably the best value choice going.

Yea being troops changed up opinion on them. Now only if you could actually buy them now (did not see them on GW website)

They haven't been released yet - in fact none of the revealed new CSM models have been released generally. That's the Dark Commune, the new Cultists + Accursed Cultists, the new Possessed, or even the base CSM + Kill Team Sprue (those guys should be dropping for preorder this Saturday). The new DP is probably coming out near the end of this year with the AoS Slaves to Darkness book (presumably with a revised 40k datasheet) and we heard rumors of new Bikers but those models haven't even been revealed yet.

 Thariinye wrote:
They haven't been released yet - in fact none of the revealed new CSM models have been released generally. That's the Dark Commune, the new Cultists + Accursed Cultists, the new Possessed, or even the base CSM + Kill Team Sprue (those guys should be dropping for preorder this Saturday). The new DP is probably coming out near the end of this year with the AoS Slaves to Darkness book (presumably with a revised 40k datasheet) and we heard rumors of new Bikers but those models haven't even been revealed yet.

Apparently one of the guys doing rule reviews (I think it was Auspex) said that he was surprised that Huron wasn't released, which means he had info on it.

Accursed cultists are really good. Waiting for their models to be released. Cultists still have a place if you are really want the absolute cheapest troop choice, but if you can afford the 25 points extra, then accursed cultists are much better. They are like the CSM version of pox walkers except they fight better and move faster.