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Ah! Okay, thanks!
Appreciate it!

Of note, the Night Lords stratagem From the Night bypasses this restriction allowing for first turn reinforcements with infantry or biker units.

I've had a high degree of success with a Black Legion 2K MSU-mixed list, so I thought I'd post here. Its unconventional, but it does use a few things I've seen elsewhere.

1) Mobile gunline. This part consists of 2 x 5 man Plague Marine units, with plasma, blight launcher, cleaver, flail, and plasma and power fist on champ; 2 x 5 man Havocs, one with Mark of Slaanesh, all lascannons and one unmarked with 2 x lascannons and 2 x autocannons; a Daemon Prince with Mark of Tzeentch, wings and sword; Exalted Champ who gets the Eternal Vendetta and Trusted War Leader traits through strat; and finally a 10 man Legionnaire unit with Mark of Tzeentch, balefire tome, autocannon and heavy bolter.

Everything starts out of sight and jumps out to shoot. I spend 5 command points on the Legionnaires: one for daemon shell, one for remain stationary and one to turn them into Emperor's Children, finally two to shoot twice. With Eternal Vendetta its a mini hail of doom and has deleted a number of big things including: Silent King, 3 x Redemptors, 2 x Tank Commanders, 9 Leviathan Tyranid Warriors etc. It can get perfect angles and board coverage with warp time (from Prince), who can then do a psychic action with strat. Alternatively, I spend the last command point to get two extra hits from the lascannon Havocs, or to Veterans Rubrics (see below). The Plague Marines and Havocs lay down a hail of suppressive fire, with rerolls from Prince and Champ. If the mobile gunline gets charged or shot at its resilient enough for most things to bounce, and it then gets counterpunched by melee Plague Marines, Prince and Champ. I keep Diabolic Strength in the block somewhere, to put on Exalted Champ, or a cleaver Plague Marine.

2) Harrying units. This is a 10 man Rubric unit, all with flamers in a Rhino; 8 man bike unit with Mark of Khorne, fist on Champ and flamers; Venomcrawler and Heldrake. The Rubrics hop out of Rhino, potentially warp time and can flame a unit, I can Veterans them if I don't do a couple of the previous things (Havocs extra hits + psychic action etc.). Once they're out of the Rhino, it can taxi the Plague Marines later. The bikes are there for chaff clearance, counter charging, can deny with the Khorne strat and Despoil Dominions. Venomcrawler adds psychic support, a little shooting and counter charging. Similar for the Heldrake, but that also gives me anti-flyer, in addition to the Prince, and options for move blocking.

3) Action units. 2 x 10 man Cultist units. These move in behind the others for Banners, Despoil Dominions etc.

Some things about the list.

Its tougher than it looks. Units are small, can be hidden easily and there is a lot of models, making it possible to block out flyers and deep strikes. After the mini-hail of doom, Rubrics, Havocs and other elements have shot, the return fire is minimized and has to be spread quite thin. Everything is either/and/or T5, Disgustingly Resilient or potential for equivalent, has Mark of Nurgle, has Mark of Tzeentch, can get 4++ and has Armour of Contempt etc., so there are no easy targets except the Cultists, which are often ignored. The army leans a bit into territory usually associated with Marines, shooting, mobility but can deliver a very nasty melee counterpunch and has decent psychic defense.

It runs counter to the idea of having a big, immobile Terminator brick which is slow and lacks damage output without character support, instead it relies on distributed, high damage output, hard to kill units that force the opponent to split attention. The characters are there to enhance damage output across the board, rather than focusing on buffing one big unit and are able to do some damage in melee, psychic and shooting.

Objectives. I usually take Despoil Dominions, Bring it Down/No Prisoners, and one of the psychic ones, depending on opponent. So far, I've found that the damage output, versatility and mobility of the list has totally offset the weaker faction secondary's. One of two things happen: 1) the list pulls ahead early and the opponent can't recover easily 2) both armies bounce a bit and get pulled into a slow grind, where the Despoil Dominions objective helps as it can deny opponent's actions and can be performed by the Bikes.

Best,
Samii.

And apologies for the giant post

Samii wrote:
I've had a high degree of success with a Black Legion 2K MSU-mixed list, so I thought I'd post here. Its unconventional, but it does use a few things I've seen elsewhere.

1) Mobile gunline. This part consists of 2 x 5 man Plague Marine units, with plasma, blight launcher, cleaver, flail, and plasma and power fist on champ; 2 x 5 man Havocs, one with Mark of Slaanesh, all lascannons and one unmarked with 2 x lascannons and 2 x autocannons; a Daemon Prince with Mark of Tzeentch, wings and sword; Exalted Champ who gets the Eternal Vendetta and Trusted War Leader traits through strat; and finally a 10 man Legionnaire unit with Mark of Tzeentch, balefire tome, autocannon and heavy bolter.

Everything starts out of sight and jumps out to shoot. I spend 5 command points on the Legionnaires: one for daemon shell, one for remain stationary and one to turn them into Emperor's Children, finally two to shoot twice. With Eternal Vendetta its a mini hail of doom and has deleted a number of big things including: Silent King, 3 x Redemptors, 2 x Tank Commanders, 9 Leviathan Tyranid Warriors etc. It can get perfect angles and board coverage with warp time (from Prince), who can then do a psychic action with strat. Alternatively, I spend the last command point to get two extra hits from the lascannon Havocs, or to Veterans Rubrics (see below). The Plague Marines and Havocs lay down a hail of suppressive fire, with rerolls from Prince and Champ. If the mobile gunline gets charged or shot at its resilient enough for most things to bounce, and it then gets counterpunched by melee Plague Marines, Prince and Champ. I keep Diabolic Strength in the block somewhere, to put on Exalted Champ, or a cleaver Plague Marine.

2) Harrying units. This is a 10 man Rubric unit, all with flamers in a Rhino; 8 man bike unit with Mark of Khorne, fist on Champ and flamers; Venomcrawler and Heldrake. The Rubrics hop out of Rhino, potentially warp time and can flame a unit, I can Veterans them if I don't do a couple of the previous things (Havocs extra hits + psychic action etc.). Once they're out of the Rhino, it can taxi the Plague Marines later. The bikes are there for chaff clearance, counter charging, can deny with the Khorne strat and Despoil Dominions. Venomcrawler adds psychic support, a little shooting and counter charging. Similar for the Heldrake, but that also gives me anti-flyer, in addition to the Prince, and options for move blocking.

3) Action units. 2 x 10 man Cultist units. These move in behind the others for Banners, Despoil Dominions etc.

Some things about the list.

Its tougher than it looks. Units are small, can be hidden easily and there is a lot of models, making it possible to block out flyers and deep strikes. After the mini-hail of doom, Rubrics, Havocs and other elements have shot, the return fire is minimized and has to be spread quite thin. Everything is either/and/or T5, Disgustingly Resilient or potential for equivalent, has Mark of Nurgle, has Mark of Tzeentch, can get 4++ and has Armour of Contempt etc., so there are no easy targets except the Cultists, which are often ignored. The army leans a bit into territory usually associated with Marines, shooting, mobility but can deliver a very nasty melee counterpunch and has decent psychic defense.

It runs counter to the idea of having a big, immobile Terminator brick which is slow and lacks damage output without character support, instead it relies on distributed, high damage output, hard to kill units that force the opponent to split attention. The characters are there to enhance damage output across the board, rather than focusing on buffing one big unit and are able to do some damage in melee, psychic and shooting.

Objectives. I usually take Despoil Dominions, Bring it Down/No Prisoners, and one of the psychic ones, depending on opponent. So far, I've found that the damage output, versatility and mobility of the list has totally offset the weaker faction secondary's. One of two things happen: 1) the list pulls ahead early and the opponent can't recover easily 2) both armies bounce a bit and get pulled into a slow grind, where the Despoil Dominions objective helps as it can deny opponent's actions and can be performed by the Bikes.

Best,
Samii.

And apologies for the giant post

Hmmm, very interesting! And shows that there is definitely more than one way to play CSM!

Dakka

What tip, trick, or other form of skullduggery can I use to get a black legion rhino full of berzerkers into my opponents deployment zone for a 2nd turn disembark and charge?

The best thought I’ve come up with is: command phase, spend CP to use “confluence of traitors”, give the rhino the red corsairs advance and charge ability, move 12”, advance, then charge the most elite troublesome unit I can find so I can’t be shot at (though they could fall back). Then voila, turn two, disembark the zerkers and do the real damage. Don’t think I’d be above popping smoke either to give the rhino a chance to survive…. Thoughts?

Why would you use Berserkers in a Black Legion list though? Chosen literally do what they do but better.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Why would you use Berserkers in a Black Legion list though? Chosen literally do what they do but better.

Berserkers are cheaper and have more attacks.
Chosen can get up to AP-4, if they're Khornate and have an Icon, though that's less relevant than getting the first points of AP through.

BL Chosen do get +1 to-hit on the charge, at least, while Berserkers don't benefit.

So, comparing the two...

Ten Chosen, Mark Of Khorne And Icon-270 Points
41 attacks
205/6 or 34.17 hits at S6 AP-4 D1

Ten Berserkers, Icon-225 Points
51 attacks
34 hits at S6 AP-3 D1

Chosen get less than a single extra hit, while costing 45 points more. The additional AP would matter most against a 2+ model with no Invuln or Armor of Contempt, where it increases damage by 25% relative to the Berserkers. (But what 2+ armor models with no invulns are meta?)
Against a T7 or higher, 2+ save (or 3+ with Armor of Contempt, which feels a little more realistic) those Chosen do 9.49 damage. Berserkers get 7.56 damage, which makes the Chosen SLIGHTLY more efficient at killing per point. Very slightly.

Checking against a T9 2+ with Armor of Contempt...
Chosen do 7.59.
Berserkers do 5.67.
Chosen are about 10% better here.

Notably, this assumes you get the charge off-otherwise, Chosen hit on a 3+ (not a 2+) and that drops their damage by 20%. So even against an Astartes Land Raider, Chosen (6.07 damage, 44.48 points per damage) do worse than Berserkers (5.67 damage, 39.68 points per damage) at least on an efficiency level.

In other words, if ALL you need is killing power, Berserkers are a better bang for your buck in most situations. But the Chosen's extra wound per model probably makes them the overall better choice.

Then again, maybe Kangarupe just likes Berserkers, and wants to include them. In which case, a Rhino is a solid idea.

Edit: Unrelated, but I have a list I'm trying to determine a Legion for. Find it here.

 JNAProductions wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Why would you use Berserkers in a Black Legion list though? Chosen literally do what they do but better.

Berserkers are cheaper and have more attacks.
Chosen can get up to AP-4, if they're Khornate and have an Icon, though that's less relevant than getting the first points of AP through.

BL Chosen do get +1 to-hit on the charge, at least, while Berserkers don't benefit.

So, comparing the two...

Ten Chosen, Mark Of Khorne And Icon-270 Points
41 attacks
205/6 or 34.17 hits at S6 AP-4 D1

Ten Berserkers, Icon-225 Points
51 attacks
34 hits at S6 AP-3 D1

Chosen get less than a single extra hit, while costing 45 points more. The additional AP would matter most against a 2+ model with no Invuln or Armor of Contempt, where it increases damage by 25% relative to the Berserkers. (But what 2+ armor models with no invulns are meta?)
Against a T7 or higher, 2+ save (or 3+ with Armor of Contempt, which feels a little more realistic) those Chosen do 9.49 damage. Berserkers get 7.56 damage, which makes the Chosen SLIGHTLY more efficient at killing per point. Very slightly.

Checking against a T9 2+ with Armor of Contempt...
Chosen do 7.59.
Berserkers do 5.67.
Chosen are about 10% better here.

Notably, this assumes you get the charge off-otherwise, Chosen hit on a 3+ (not a 2+) and that drops their damage by 20%. So even against an Astartes Land Raider, Chosen (6.07 damage, 44.48 points per damage) do worse than Berserkers (5.67 damage, 39.68 points per damage) at least on an efficiency level.

In other words, if ALL you need is killing power, Berserkers are a better bang for your buck in most situations. But the Chosen's extra wound per model probably makes them the overall better choice.

Then again, maybe Kangarupe just likes Berserkers, and wants to include them. In which case, a Rhino is a solid idea.

Edit: Unrelated, but I have a list I'm trying to determine a Legion for. Find it here.

You also forget the Chosen have extra shooting and 2 of those 10 get a free Power Fist now.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Why would you use Berserkers in a Black Legion list though? Chosen literally do what they do but better.

Berserkers are cheaper and have more attacks.
Chosen can get up to AP-4, if they're Khornate and have an Icon, though that's less relevant than getting the first points of AP through.

BL Chosen do get +1 to-hit on the charge, at least, while Berserkers don't benefit.

So, comparing the two...

Ten Chosen, Mark Of Khorne And Icon-270 Points
41 attacks
205/6 or 34.17 hits at S6 AP-4 D1

Ten Berserkers, Icon-225 Points
51 attacks
34 hits at S6 AP-3 D1

Chosen get less than a single extra hit, while costing 45 points more. The additional AP would matter most against a 2+ model with no Invuln or Armor of Contempt, where it increases damage by 25% relative to the Berserkers. (But what 2+ armor models with no invulns are meta?)
Against a T7 or higher, 2+ save (or 3+ with Armor of Contempt, which feels a little more realistic) those Chosen do 9.49 damage. Berserkers get 7.56 damage, which makes the Chosen SLIGHTLY more efficient at killing per point. Very slightly.

Checking against a T9 2+ with Armor of Contempt...
Chosen do 7.59.
Berserkers do 5.67.
Chosen are about 10% better here.

Notably, this assumes you get the charge off-otherwise, Chosen hit on a 3+ (not a 2+) and that drops their damage by 20%. So even against an Astartes Land Raider, Chosen (6.07 damage, 44.48 points per damage) do worse than Berserkers (5.67 damage, 39.68 points per damage) at least on an efficiency level.

In other words, if ALL you need is killing power, Berserkers are a better bang for your buck in most situations. But the Chosen's extra wound per model probably makes them the overall better choice.

Then again, maybe Kangarupe just likes Berserkers, and wants to include them. In which case, a Rhino is a solid idea.

Edit: Unrelated, but I have a list I'm trying to determine a Legion for. Find it here.

You also forget the Chosen have extra shooting and 2 of those 10 get a free Power Fist now.

Shooting is negligible unless you pay for upgrades. 20 Bolt shots is better than 10, but neither is that big a deal.

The Powerfists do help, though. If you want a comparison against some targets, I can run the numbers of Berserkers versus Chosen.

 JNAProductions wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Why would you use Berserkers in a Black Legion list though? Chosen literally do what they do but better.

Berserkers are cheaper and have more attacks.
Chosen can get up to AP-4, if they're Khornate and have an Icon, though that's less relevant than getting the first points of AP through.

BL Chosen do get +1 to-hit on the charge, at least, while Berserkers don't benefit.

So, comparing the two...

Ten Chosen, Mark Of Khorne And Icon-270 Points
41 attacks
205/6 or 34.17 hits at S6 AP-4 D1

Ten Berserkers, Icon-225 Points
51 attacks
34 hits at S6 AP-3 D1

Chosen get less than a single extra hit, while costing 45 points more. The additional AP would matter most against a 2+ model with no Invuln or Armor of Contempt, where it increases damage by 25% relative to the Berserkers. (But what 2+ armor models with no invulns are meta?)
Against a T7 or higher, 2+ save (or 3+ with Armor of Contempt, which feels a little more realistic) those Chosen do 9.49 damage. Berserkers get 7.56 damage, which makes the Chosen SLIGHTLY more efficient at killing per point. Very slightly.

Checking against a T9 2+ with Armor of Contempt...
Chosen do 7.59.
Berserkers do 5.67.
Chosen are about 10% better here.

Notably, this assumes you get the charge off-otherwise, Chosen hit on a 3+ (not a 2+) and that drops their damage by 20%. So even against an Astartes Land Raider, Chosen (6.07 damage, 44.48 points per damage) do worse than Berserkers (5.67 damage, 39.68 points per damage) at least on an efficiency level.

In other words, if ALL you need is killing power, Berserkers are a better bang for your buck in most situations. But the Chosen's extra wound per model probably makes them the overall better choice.

Then again, maybe Kangarupe just likes Berserkers, and wants to include them. In which case, a Rhino is a solid idea.

Edit: Unrelated, but I have a list I'm trying to determine a Legion for. Find it here.

You also forget the Chosen have extra shooting and 2 of those 10 get a free Power Fist now.

Shooting is negligible unless you pay for upgrades. 20 Bolt shots is better than 10, but neither is that big a deal.

The Powerfists do help, though. If you want a comparison against some targets, I can run the numbers of Berserkers versus Chosen.

20 Bolt Shots that, assuming Black Legion, hit on 2+.
ALSO Chosen aren't perpetually stuck with MoK. MoS is also a valid option, especially if you don't go the route of Black Legion since you can just get the 2+ to hit from the Icon.

Yes. 20 shots that hit on a 2+ and explode on 6s average 20 hits, which does 3 wounds to Marines out of cover.
If your nearest target is in cover, you're either hitting on a 3+ (and doing 2 wounds to another MEQ squad out of cover) or they're saving on a 2+, meaning you don't even kill one Marine on average.
And, don't forget the Berserkers still have Pistols, so the actual difference in damage is smaller than the total damage dealt by Chosen.

It's not NOTHING-but it's negligible unless you buy better guns.

Also, I still think Chosen are the superior option-just not necessarily killier per point. The main draw is the 3rd wound, which massively ups their durability against anything with less than consistent 3 damage.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Yes. 20 shots that hit on a 2+ and explode on 6s average 20 hits, which does 3 wounds to Marines out of cover.
If your nearest target is in cover, you're either hitting on a 3+ (and doing 2 wounds to another MEQ squad out of cover) or they're saving on a 2+, meaning you don't even kill one Marine on average.
And, don't forget the Berserkers still have Pistols, so the actual difference in damage is smaller than the total damage dealt by Chosen.

It's not NOTHING-but it's negligible unless you buy better guns.

Also, I still think Chosen are the superior option-just not necessarily killier per point. The main draw is the 3rd wound, which massively ups their durability against anything with less than consistent 3 damage.

ALSO 40 Points is 4 Combi-Plasma.

I don't even like Chosen, but they legit take away the role of Berserker Marines simply BECAUSE they get Legion traits.

Also, Mark of Slaanesh doesn't help Black Legion Chosen on the charge (except for Power Fist ones). It helps them a lot next turn, if their target survives, though.

Squads are 10 men each, only upgrade is an Icon on the 'Zerkers, and MoK, Icon, and two Fists for the Chosen.

Berserkers have 51 attacks
34 hits at S6 AP-3 D1

Chosen have 33 attacks
165/6 or 55/2 or 27.5 hits at S6 AP-4 D1
and
6 attacks
4 hits at S9 AP-4 D2

Against MEQ
Berserkers do 15.11 wounds
Chosen do 2.78 PF wounds and 15.28 other wounds

...

Huh. You know, with the BL Trait and the bonus AP, they actually come out ahead, on a model to model basis. Didn't quite expect that.

How do chosen and berserkers compare to possessed, the other melee elite unit? I guess I'm wondering why I'd take chosen over possessed. For the AP?

Iggy88 wrote:
How do chosen and berserkers compare to possessed, the other melee elite unit? I guess I'm wondering why I'd take chosen over possessed. For the AP?

They can ride in a Rhino. There's that.

In the chosen vs zerker debate I always like to mention Khorne Legionaries as an alternative. For 220pts you get 10 Legionaries, 8 with Astartes Chainsword which end up at 4 attacks S5 AP-2 on the charge. In addition you get a champ with 4 PF attacks and a guy with 3 heavy chainaxe attacks. This squat can get +1 to wound and ,fight again at the end of combat phase’ from stratagems. But yeah, the points for a squad of chosen is not so far away and provides access to better shooting and, more important, 3W models

Berserker Marines are another Elite melee option in a codex with already a ton of Elite melee options, and one that doesn't benefit from Legion Traits.

Kangarupe wrote:
Dakka

What tip, trick, or other form of skullduggery can I use to get a black legion rhino full of berzerkers into my opponents deployment zone for a 2nd turn disembark and charge?

The best thought I’ve come up with is: command phase, spend CP to use “confluence of traitors”, give the rhino the red corsairs advance and charge ability, move 12”, advance, then charge the most elite troublesome unit I can find so I can’t be shot at (though they could fall back). Then voila, turn two, disembark the zerkers and do the real damage. Don’t think I’d be above popping smoke either to give the rhino a chance to survive…. Thoughts?

No tricks needed, just save the rhino to deploy as one of your last units so that it can line up a fairly straight path across the board.
Turn 1:
Advance Rhino 12+D6" (average 15.5")

Turn2:
Disembark unit 3"
Move unit 6"
Charge unit 2D6" (average 7")

Total average move 31.5", which is well into enemy DZ on many typical deployment options. Also, take note of the terrain set up as some features increase engagement range, and if possible try to line up the infantry to disembark and move through breachable terrain as you might get lucky on an unsuspecting opponent expecting the transport to have to go around.

And if you have them, chosen are a bit better.

Eldenfirefly wrote:

Samii wrote:
I've had a high degree of success with a Black Legion 2K MSU-mixed list, so I thought I'd post here. Its unconventional, but it does use a few things I've seen elsewhere.

1) Mobile gunline. This part consists of 2 x 5 man Plague Marine units, with plasma, blight launcher, cleaver, flail, and plasma and power fist on champ; 2 x 5 man Havocs, one with Mark of Slaanesh, all lascannons and one unmarked with 2 x lascannons and 2 x autocannons; a Daemon Prince with Mark of Tzeentch, wings and sword; Exalted Champ who gets the Eternal Vendetta and Trusted War Leader traits through strat; and finally a 10 man Legionnaire unit with Mark of Tzeentch, balefire tome, autocannon and heavy bolter.

Everything starts out of sight and jumps out to shoot. I spend 5 command points on the Legionnaires: one for daemon shell, one for remain stationary and one to turn them into Emperor's Children, finally two to shoot twice. With Eternal Vendetta its a mini hail of doom and has deleted a number of big things including: Silent King, 3 x Redemptors, 2 x Tank Commanders, 9 Leviathan Tyranid Warriors etc. It can get perfect angles and board coverage with warp time (from Prince), who can then do a psychic action with strat. Alternatively, I spend the last command point to get two extra hits from the lascannon Havocs, or to Veterans Rubrics (see below). The Plague Marines and Havocs lay down a hail of suppressive fire, with rerolls from Prince and Champ. If the mobile gunline gets charged or shot at its resilient enough for most things to bounce, and it then gets counterpunched by melee Plague Marines, Prince and Champ. I keep Diabolic Strength in the block somewhere, to put on Exalted Champ, or a cleaver Plague Marine.

2) Harrying units. This is a 10 man Rubric unit, all with flamers in a Rhino; 8 man bike unit with Mark of Khorne, fist on Champ and flamers; Venomcrawler and Heldrake. The Rubrics hop out of Rhino, potentially warp time and can flame a unit, I can Veterans them if I don't do a couple of the previous things (Havocs extra hits + psychic action etc.). Once they're out of the Rhino, it can taxi the Plague Marines later. The bikes are there for chaff clearance, counter charging, can deny with the Khorne strat and Despoil Dominions. Venomcrawler adds psychic support, a little shooting and counter charging. Similar for the Heldrake, but that also gives me anti-flyer, in addition to the Prince, and options for move blocking.

3) Action units. 2 x 10 man Cultist units. These move in behind the others for Banners, Despoil Dominions etc.

Some things about the list.

Its tougher than it looks. Units are small, can be hidden easily and there is a lot of models, making it possible to block out flyers and deep strikes. After the mini-hail of doom, Rubrics, Havocs and other elements have shot, the return fire is minimized and has to be spread quite thin. Everything is either/and/or T5, Disgustingly Resilient or potential for equivalent, has Mark of Nurgle, has Mark of Tzeentch, can get 4++ and has Armour of Contempt etc., so there are no easy targets except the Cultists, which are often ignored. The army leans a bit into territory usually associated with Marines, shooting, mobility but can deliver a very nasty melee counterpunch and has decent psychic defense.

It runs counter to the idea of having a big, immobile Terminator brick which is slow and lacks damage output without character support, instead it relies on distributed, high damage output, hard to kill units that force the opponent to split attention. The characters are there to enhance damage output across the board, rather than focusing on buffing one big unit and are able to do some damage in melee, psychic and shooting.

Objectives. I usually take Despoil Dominions, Bring it Down/No Prisoners, and one of the psychic ones, depending on opponent. So far, I've found that the damage output, versatility and mobility of the list has totally offset the weaker faction secondary's. One of two things happen: 1) the list pulls ahead early and the opponent can't recover easily 2) both armies bounce a bit and get pulled into a slow grind, where the Despoil Dominions objective helps as it can deny opponent's actions and can be performed by the Bikes.

Best,
Samii.

And apologies for the giant post

Hmmm, very interesting! And shows that there is definitely more than one way to play CSM!

I've tried a couple of variations on the list, including dropping Exalted Champ for a Master of Possession, taking a smaller Bike unit and adding a Chaos Predator, but all-in-all the original has been the most successful configuration and yes; as you say I think there is still a lot in the codex to unpack, in terms of combinations.

So with Chosen getting access to a hidden Power Fist for free, I decided to rewrite my initial list with the Red Corsair Raptors and replace them. Here we go:

HQ:
×1 Huron Blackheart
×1 Lord Discordant
. Baleflamer
. Warlord - Unholy Fortitude, Relic - Gorget
. MoT
×1 Master of Possession
. Aspiring Lord - Hatred Incarnate, Relic - Ghollax
. MoN
. Powers - Pact of Flesh, Mutated Invigoration

Troops:
×10 Cultists
. Heavy Stubber
×10 Cultists
. Heavy Stubber
×10 Cultists
. Heavy Stubber

Elites:
×6 Terminators
. 2 Power Fist, 2 Combi-Melta
. 1 Power Fist, 1 Combi-Flamer
. 1 Chainfist, 1 Combi-Flamer
. 2 Accursed Weapons
. Trophies of the Long War - The Black Mace, 1 Combi-Plasma
. MoN
×8 Possessed
. Trophies of the Long War - Black Rune
. Icon
×6 Chosen
. 2 Combi-Melta, 1 Power Fist
. Champion w/ 2 Accursed Weapons
. MoS, Icon
×6 Chosen
. 2 Combi-Melta, 1 Power Fist
. Champion w/ 2 Accursed Weapons
. MoS, Icon
×1 Master of Executions
. Aspiring Lord - Gaze of the God's, Relic - Ulocca

Heavy Support:
×3 Maulerfiends w/ Lasher Tendrils

List should make sense overall. Cultists hang back and take pot shots, literally everyone else advances up the board and takes advantage of being W3. I don't necessarily have to worry about a random Deep Strike near the Cultists for a whole turn as Red Corsairs would stop a unit from getting that far with their strat, and then next turn a Maulerfiend can advance and charge far enough to cover them for their protection. No extr need for Objective Secured as dead models don't hold objectives, and Red Corsairs each count as two dudes.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
So with Chosen getting access to a hidden Power Fist for free...

Until the people responsible for points realise what the people responsible for FAQs did and change that...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
So with Chosen getting access to a hidden Power Fist for free...

Until the people responsible for points realise what the people responsible for FAQs did and change that...

Then worst case scenario I lose the Icon on the Possesed and the Heavy Stubbers

 Insularum wrote:

Kangarupe wrote:
Dakka

What tip, trick, or other form of skullduggery can I use to get a black legion rhino full of berzerkers into my opponents deployment zone for a 2nd turn disembark and charge?

The best thought I’ve come up with is: command phase, spend CP to use “confluence of traitors”, give the rhino the red corsairs advance and charge ability, move 12”, advance, then charge the most elite troublesome unit I can find so I can’t be shot at (though they could fall back). Then voila, turn two, disembark the zerkers and do the real damage. Don’t think I’d be above popping smoke either to give the rhino a chance to survive…. Thoughts?

No tricks needed, just save the rhino to deploy as one of your last units so that it can line up a fairly straight path across the board.
Turn 1:
Advance Rhino 12+D6" (average 15.5")

Turn2:
Disembark unit 3"
Move unit 6"
Charge unit 2D6" (average 7")

Total average move 31.5", which is well into enemy DZ on many typical deployment options. Also, take note of the terrain set up as some features increase engagement range, and if possible try to line up the infantry to disembark and move through breachable terrain as you might get lucky on an unsuspecting opponent expecting the transport to have to go around.

And if you have them, chosen are a bit better.

Thanks all! Did not expect this to turn into a ‘zerker v. Chosen discussion. The ‘zerkers are intended to be a suicide team with lots of hits for greater probability. Once they’re in the ‘belly of the beast” I’m expecting them to come under a colossal host of fire from all the stationary rear troops. I wouldn’t expect either choice to stay alive long, so I would rather spend less points (though not by much I’ll agree!)

This is a great idea though, last to deploy, I’m definitely going to implement that little bit of trickery. Although I do like the idea of engaging something on the 1st turn, forcing a fall back if my opponent wants to get any shots off!

Kangarupe wrote:

 Insularum wrote:

Kangarupe wrote:
Dakka

What tip, trick, or other form of skullduggery can I use to get a black legion rhino full of berzerkers into my opponents deployment zone for a 2nd turn disembark and charge?

The best thought I’ve come up with is: command phase, spend CP to use “confluence of traitors”, give the rhino the red corsairs advance and charge ability, move 12”, advance, then charge the most elite troublesome unit I can find so I can’t be shot at (though they could fall back). Then voila, turn two, disembark the zerkers and do the real damage. Don’t think I’d be above popping smoke either to give the rhino a chance to survive…. Thoughts?

No tricks needed, just save the rhino to deploy as one of your last units so that it can line up a fairly straight path across the board.
Turn 1:
Advance Rhino 12+D6" (average 15.5")

Turn2:
Disembark unit 3"
Move unit 6"
Charge unit 2D6" (average 7")

Total average move 31.5", which is well into enemy DZ on many typical deployment options. Also, take note of the terrain set up as some features increase engagement range, and if possible try to line up the infantry to disembark and move through breachable terrain as you might get lucky on an unsuspecting opponent expecting the transport to have to go around.

And if you have them, chosen are a bit better.

Thanks all! Did not expect this to turn into a ‘zerker v. Chosen discussion.

It's important to discuss though, because they're an Elite choice for melee in a codex with a bunch of Elite choices for melee. Ultimately, without benefitting from Legion traits, the question becomes if they're even worth having a unit entry to begin with. At least for Plague Marines and Rubric Marines, they sorta fill roles otherwise. Even with Black Legion, you'd still be better off just using those Berserker Marines as Chosen, and quite frankly nobody would fault you for it.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Spoiler:

Kangarupe wrote:

 Insularum wrote:

Kangarupe wrote:
Dakka

What tip, trick, or other form of skullduggery can I use to get a black legion rhino full of berzerkers into my opponents deployment zone for a 2nd turn disembark and charge?

The best thought I’ve come up with is: command phase, spend CP to use “confluence of traitors”, give the rhino the red corsairs advance and charge ability, move 12”, advance, then charge the most elite troublesome unit I can find so I can’t be shot at (though they could fall back). Then voila, turn two, disembark the zerkers and do the real damage. Don’t think I’d be above popping smoke either to give the rhino a chance to survive…. Thoughts?

No tricks needed, just save the rhino to deploy as one of your last units so that it can line up a fairly straight path across the board.
Turn 1:
Advance Rhino 12+D6" (average 15.5")

Turn2:
Disembark unit 3"
Move unit 6"
Charge unit 2D6" (average 7")

Total average move 31.5", which is well into enemy DZ on many typical deployment options. Also, take note of the terrain set up as some features increase engagement range, and if possible try to line up the infantry to disembark and move through breachable terrain as you might get lucky on an unsuspecting opponent expecting the transport to have to go around.

And if you have them, chosen are a bit better.

Thanks all! Did not expect this to turn into a ‘zerker v. Chosen discussion.

It's important to discuss though, because they're an Elite choice for melee in a codex with a bunch of Elite choices for melee. Ultimately, without benefitting from Legion traits, the question becomes if they're even worth having a unit entry to begin with. At least for Plague Marines and Rubric Marines, they sorta fill roles otherwise. Even with Black Legion, you'd still be better off just using those Berserker Marines as Chosen, and quite frankly nobody would fault you for it.

Chosen are objectively better right now, mainly from the extra wound and legion trait - it will likely all change whenever the WE codex drops and there is a new boxset/datasheet for Berzerkers.

Quick question on Berzerkers though while they are on topic - if they have an icon are they AP-3 or AP-4? Mark of Khorne and an icon gives an improvement of 1, but the index World Eaters datasheet also lists the Beraerker's icon alone as giving an improvement of 1.

You guys have convinced me, I’m going to run my berzerkers as chosen and see how it plays out. I honestly didn’t know (or forgot) that even in a black legion list with the keyword, zerkers still don’t get the BL trait… this makes a world of difference …especially when they’ll be fighting the closest enemy with my plan. Thank you all!

The benefit of being able to put them in a rhino is huge too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another question for you all though. I just purchased 2 Contemptor Dreadnoughts to run the Twin Volkite Culverin load out. To me, the BL legion trait of +1 to hit, and the wanton exploding 6s with these dreads will make a vicious combination, no to mention they’re core, so they can take advantage of all kinds of lovely HQ buffs. I’m not the best with stratagem management, so they CP expenditure doesn’t bother me *too* much. So I ask: did I make a mistake? Am I overestimating their potential effectiveness?

Kangarupe wrote:
To me, the BL legion trait of +1 to hit, and the wanton exploding 6s with these dreads will make a vicious combination

Wanton exploding 6s are unmodified only.

 Warlawk wrote:

Kangarupe wrote:
To me, the BL legion trait of +1 to hit, and the wanton exploding 6s with these dreads will make a vicious combination

Wanton exploding 6s are unmodified only.

Yeah obviously….🤔

That aside, it exists… increased chances to hit with the +1, more wound potential with exploding 6s.

After three games Im reaching the point in which my BL Army can deliver a great punch... I just have to learn how to score Nephilin Primaries and Secundaries... Nevertheless Im very happy with the CODEX, its very temathic.

Vatsetis wrote:
After three games Im reaching the point in which my BL Army can deliver a great punch... I just have to learn how to score Nephilin Primaries and Secundaries... Nevertheless Im very happy with the CODEX, its very temathic.

I find the BL secondaries to be fairly useless. I have been running despoil dominions but have found most of my opponents doing raise the banners or other actionable secondaries on their back line, and mostly just trying to push me off objectives, but not performing actions (nullifying that particular secondary’s benefit). Haven’t tried the one where you devote quarters to the gods, but might see how that works out.