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Or was it invented during the great crusade

If it’s from an STC why don’t we see variations made for humans?

It was developed during the Great Crusade, from STCs of hazardous environment suits.

Terminator armour for normal humans does exist - several Inquisitors use it (such as Hector Rex & Astor Sabbathiel, below)

What beast_gts said.

Remember that many STCs are modular and adaptable, and that different equipment can often be plugged into the same port (see the Rhino chassis for a great example). In the 41st millenium, creating such a new pattern from pre-existing parts is an arduous process that requires centuries of debate amongst high-ranking techpriests to convince the more conservative members of the validity, but it does happen.

In the GC, however, doing this to fill tactical roles appears widely accepted, and terminator armour appears to be a good example of such.

The helmet of Mk7 SM power armour was a spinoff of the Terminator program (according to 2nd ed).

As mentioned yes. Terminator armor got made into STC's IIRC the way it went down was

The first iteration of terminator armor made from hazerdous enviormental suits, then you had the cataphractii pattern, which was the first STC, the problem with it was legions were going through it so fast becasue they all loved them, they had to basicallymake the indomonus pattern to make up for the loss while they were working on the Tartaros pattern which never fully made it into mass prodcution for the legions.

The reason power armor and terminator armor is not made for humans is because its not every viable for humans to use. This is because they lack the black carapace that the space marines have. Because of that the difference between space marines and humans using it is, all power armor and terminator aromor that human pouts on works like an exo suit, they are slow, and cumbersome, if put onto a marine, they interface with the black carapace and the armor basically becomes a second skin to the marine and they are able to use it to its fullest potential.

That is why you dont see many humans outside of very high ranking or estemed humans even set foot in power armor or terminator armor for that matter because in a war, thye are giving the supplies to the people who can use it the best and be the most effective with it.

TDA isn't an STC, it's just a regular old design template. The Mechanicus and Mechanicum couldn't make STCs, only discover them and TDA is very specifically said to be made by combining multiple sources rather than just one. The three "main" patterns (Cataphractii, Tartaros, and Indomitus) were the only ones that were in widespread production, with other Forge Worlds sometimes producing their own patterns if they didn't have access to these types. This latter part seems to be an in-universe explanation for the really old models such as MkI, II, and III or Saturnine pattern.

 Gert wrote:
TDA isn't an STC, it's just a regular old design template. The Mechanicus and Mechanicum couldn't make STCs, only discover them and TDA is very specifically said to be made by combining multiple sources rather than just one. The three "main" patterns (Cataphractii, Tartaros, and Indomitus) were the only ones that were in widespread production, with other Forge Worlds sometimes producing their own patterns if they didn't have access to these types. This latter part seems to be an in-universe explanation for the really old models such as MkI, II, and III or Saturnine pattern.

Not an STC? Any technology that isn’t from an STC is heresy is it not? Although I suppose it wouldn’t have been during the GC

Has the lore changed at some point? My recollection was that each suit of terminator armour was an irreplaceable relic - they can't make it any more...

Not automatically no. Innovation and invention are still allowed by they have to be sanctioned and tend to take hundreds, if not thousands, of years to become officially allowed. With the way that politics among the Priesthood works a sanctioned creation in its final stage could be undone at the last minute by a new Fabricator General.

Crispy78 wrote:
Has the lore changed at some point? My recollection was that each suit of terminator armour was an irreplaceable relic - they can't make it any more...

That’s what I always thought, and they couldn’t make new dreadnoughts for similar reasons. But I think that’s gone as over the long term it wasn’t convenient for GW to continue to release new SM stuff.

I also believed that all technology was based on the data contained within the various STCs in the position of the ad mech and anything else was heresy. STCs contained the pure knowledge of humanity that was used when the emperor was alive and therefore ok, thus there could be no science and innovation, just a dependency on the skills of the previous generations. and hence the slow decline through stagnation and the use of religion to maintain control because no one could gain an upper hand technologically. But a lot of that goes back to 2nd Ed and probably many things wouldn’t be possible in current 40K if GW had themselves been dogmatic. A lovely irony.

But I think the first time we see a terminator in the HH is when Loken fights abbadon (I think) on istvaan so I wondered if they were an invention of 30k or not

mrFickle wrote:
That’s what I always thought, and they couldn’t make new dreadnoughts for similar reasons. But I think that’s gone as over the long term it wasn’t convenient for GW to continue to release new SM stuff.

For Dreadnoughts and TDA, it's the same rough deal. It can be done but only by the best Magi of Mars and it takes an extremely long time to do so and there might be a price attached. For example, the Carcharadons trade the archeotech they find in the depths of space to the Mechanicus for the Grey Tithe which keeps the Chapter supplied with weapons, armour, and equipment. In The Outer Dark it's noted that despite the treasures given over to the Mechanicus, the Priesthood producing 10 new suits of TDA for the Chapter was an immense gift and a very rare occurrence.

I also believed that all technology was based on the data contained within the various STCs in the position of the ad mech and anything else was heresy. STCs contained the pure knowledge of humanity that was used when the emperor was alive and therefore ok, thus there could be no science and innovation, just a dependency on the skills of the previous generations. and hence the slow decline through stagnation and the use of religion to maintain control because no one could gain an upper hand technologically. But a lot of that goes back to 2nd Ed and probably many things wouldn’t be possible in current 40K if GW had themselves been dogmatic. A lovely irony.

New equipment has to be based on stuff found in STCs but that doesn't mean it can only be from an STC. The Mechanicus has to combine the knowledge found in STCs all the time as one may contain the hull for a battle tank but no weapons, and another may contain weapons for a different vehicle but could work on the first.
The Mechanicum had a lot fewer restrictions placed on it compared to the Adeptus Mechanicus however, and a lot of the technological stagnation is a direct result of the changes made to the Treaty of Olympus following the Martian Schism and Horus Heresy.

But I think the first time we see a terminator in the HH is when Loken fights abbadon (I think) on istvaan so I wondered if they were an invention of 30k or not

TDA was developed during the Great Crusade yes.

The original fluff terminators. Very much re-engineered space/hazardous environ suits. Plenty of examples through out the games many versions of non marines (inquisitors) wearing it, never heard that it relies on the black carapace like power armour but I suppose the inquisitors could have that added to some extent.

Its like Power Armour. You can wear it without the Black Carapace, you just won't get the same benefits Astartes do in the way that the armour becomes an extension of one's self.

 Gert wrote:
Its like Power Armour. You can wear it without the Black Carapace, you just won't get the same benefits Astartes do in the way that the armour becomes an extension of one's self.

Not doubting you, you are way more up to date on the fluff especially from the HH, is there a source for that? I was reading in the new HH “legends” types units download that TDA that we have in 40k was a emergency botch job really, that was news to me, that gak was always supposed to be the best stuff around.

The lore has been semi reconned, TDA being irriplacable is no longer really a thing, at least in regaurds to the dominus pattern. Older varients such as the Cataphractii, and the Tartaros very much so, since even during the heresy Tartaros was very rare as it was bleeding edge armor tech at the time.


Im not so sure on the lore about it being redesigned from hazerdous environmental suits, not sure if thats canon im pretty sure it is.

Andykp wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Its like Power Armour. You can wear it without the Black Carapace, you just won't get the same benefits Astartes do in the way that the armour becomes an extension of one's self.

Not doubting you, you are way more up to date on the fluff especially from the HH, is there a source for that? I was reading in the new HH “legends” types units download that TDA that we have in 40k was a emergency botch job really, that was news to me, that gak was always supposed to be the best stuff around.

Yes the Indomonus armor was bascially the stop gap armor that was meant to fill the void while they went from the caraphractii armor to the much more advanced tartaros. The issue was legions were going through Cataphractii armor so much they had to make the indomonus set just to keep up, until they got the tartaros armor fully in production which never happened. IIRC.

Andykp wrote:
Not doubting you, you are way more up to date on the fluff especially from the HH, is there a source for that?

The Black Carapace has been a thing for a really long time and it's well established that non-Astartes PA wearers don't have the same abilities. It still provides the same level of protection but to an Astartes, PA acts as a second skin which is why they can generally move as if they weren't wearing it in the first place.

I was reading in the new HH “legends” types units download that TDA that we have in 40k was a emergency botch job really, that was news to me, that gak was always supposed to be the best stuff around.

I wouldn't describe it as a botch job, it just wasn't as good as Tartaros or Cataphractii but considering both of those patterns had higher material costs it made sense to make cheaper armour. It's the same reason Thunderhawks replaced Stormbirds, the former was cheaper and performed a similar role to the latter.

Well….yes. But also no. Kind of. I guess it depends upon your point of view.

Yes it’s based on Exo-suits, used in hazardous environments. Being Imperial, or at least Human in origin, whilst it’s never to my knowledge been explicit, we can handily imply those are indeed STC designs.

Beyond that? Super murky and grey area.

What exactly are the adaptations put in place, and where did they come from?

For instance, if it’s a souped up power plant, was that designed from scratch, or imported and tweaked from another STC? If so, how far removed are the currently two base STCs mashed together? Because remember, STC databases are not equal. Different eras and iterations may not be terribly compatible.

If it was just “look Dave, this suit is well tough. If we nailed a Powerfist to it, it’ll be tough and Killy” and whacking weapons on it? Those weapons are likely STC as well.

However, if the Exo-suits were more an inspiration? Perhaps there’s minimal STC involvement. At least for the frame. Who knows about the systems and sub-systems.

That's Magos D4V3 to you MDG.

What are you talking about? Dave is the Emperor’s first name.

Everyone knows that.

I thought it was The?

Dave The Emperor. But such is the ignorance of the far future, they’ve forgotten how to say Dave. So it’s a silent Dave.

 Gert wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Not doubting you, you are way more up to date on the fluff especially from the HH, is there a source for that?

The Black Carapace has been a thing for a really long time and it's well established that non-Astartes PA wearers don't have the same abilities. It still provides the same level of protection but to an Astartes, PA acts as a second skin which is why they can generally move as if they weren't wearing it in the first place.

I was reading in the new HH “legends” types units download that TDA that we have in 40k was a emergency botch job really, that was news to me, that gak was always supposed to be the best stuff around.

I wouldn't describe it as a botch job, it just wasn't as good as Tartaros or Cataphractii but considering both of those patterns had higher material costs it made sense to make cheaper armour. It's the same reason Thunderhawks replaced Stormbirds, the former was cheaper and performed a similar role to the latter.

I know that about power armour, just never seen it said terminator armour needed the black carapace as well.

Its not a need, just a preference.

 Gert wrote:
Its not a need, just a preference.

What I am getting at is, where are you getting this from, is it from fluff somewhere or just how you think it works?

Andykp wrote:
What I am getting at is, where are you getting this from, is it from fluff somewhere or just how you think it works?

The Lex page for TDA says that Marines wearing it don't suffer movement restrictions. I could be wrong and normal (as normal as Inquisitors can be considered) could operate TDA perfectly fine but considering it's still a form of PA, I took the Black Carapace thing in the same way. I think that bit comes from WD 304 from 2005 though so its probably a bit dated.

we've just seen the new LOV models which are basically terminators, their big combat suits are made from EXO suits with added weaponry. So I would guess that adapting the EXO suits for combat purposes is a pretty standard variant to whatever is in most STC's

 Gert wrote:

Andykp wrote:
What I am getting at is, where are you getting this from, is it from fluff somewhere or just how you think it works?

The Lex page for TDA says that Marines wearing it don't suffer movement restrictions. I could be wrong and normal (as normal as Inquisitors can be considered) could operate TDA perfectly fine but considering it's still a form of PA, I took the Black Carapace thing in the same way. I think that bit comes from WD 304 from 2005 though so its probably a bit dated.

I’ve scoured my archives and the inter web and can’t find any mention of terminator suit using the black carapace other than I in-referenced bits of wiki articles. No reason it doesn’t but for some reason I wanted a reference for it. If you see one fire it my way. Cheers though.

To the OP. WHC had this article on terminator armour might be interest. No mention of STCs but looks like the adapted hazard suits bit is still used as a probable source for the armour.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/29/grim-dark-corners-tactical-dreadnought-armour/

Well PA doesn't explicitly use the Black Carapace either, it's an Astartes specific implant that allows them to operate PA as if it were a second skin. So it's not TDA that has the Carapace but the Astartes user. So as I said, TDA is superior in the hands of an Astartes due to the implant compare to an Inquisitor.

 Gert wrote:
Well PA doesn't explicitly use the Black Carapace either, it's an Astartes specific implant that allows them to operate PA as if it were a second skin. So it's not TDA that has the Carapace but the Astartes user. So as I said, TDA is superior in the hands of an Astartes due to the implant compare to an Inquisitor.

I few this is turning into a row, and I don’t want that. I was just wanting to know if TDA interacts with the black carapace, and if there is a source that says this or if it’s just how you figure it works. It makes sense that it would but I have only ever read that the carapace interacts with power armour and vehicles. Genuinely not having a ago. I like fluff, i like researching it. Assumptions are great and yours make sense, but I’d like sources to look up and to know that’s what they intended.

Andykp wrote:
I few this is turning into a row, and I don’t want that. I was just wanting to know if TDA interacts with the black carapace, and if there is a source that says this or if it’s just how you figure it works. It makes sense that it would but I have only ever read that the carapace interacts with power armour and vehicles. Genuinely not having a ago. I like fluff, i like researching it. Assumptions are great and yours make sense, but I’d like sources to look up and to know that’s what they intended.

TDA is a form of PA and as we know that Astartes having the Black Carapace allows them to make better use of PA. I'm not sure a citation is needed when the situation is 1+1=2.